Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok..I looked at the ultra hypos....not ultramel....ultra hypo...from a few years ago....not mixed back into corn ...

head is uniform color.........no spear point or fork or triangle markings.........the only head marking is that actually the nuchal blotch goes halfway onto the head......the nuchal is a long 1 1/4 inch at least blotch.......belly is more than one shade with checkering actually muted and mostly along the sides and not all over the belly........pattern on male is faded with there being dull hypo-ish colors on top of other hypo-ish background.......female (his daughter) is really frosted.....lots of white spattered all over her....saddles more defined and 2 different colors present more than the male......
they were all frosted at hatching..male faded out.......

attitude is of a ratsnake not a corn......actually meaner than most ratsnakes.......

when they musk (and they do) it smells like ratsnake ,not corn......and I have been musked enough to know the difference.......

.......they look and act like ratsnakes to me........

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I know people that will not buy anything with caramel,amber,butter in them because they think they are crossed out........and the clutch size and egg size and shape pretty much lead that way....**(as per TF first thinking this)**...

......makes you wonder about bloodred corns?.......why is the fecundity of them still poor after so long (pure bloods...well,as pure as can be)...

striped corns........still same thing....low fecundity........not for all....but here yes.......

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i have heard 2 versions of striped corns.. 1 being they were bred into yellow rat snakes which is why they are striped and the other version which i like to go by and seems more likely to me personaly is that every snake breed has a "wild type" that is striped... for example desert phase king snakes. i know there are some other examples but i just cannot think of them at the moment. the truth being out there in space somewhere and no one has fessed up... kinda like the ultra gene... just needs to be proven out....
~kinion
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~Sober Serpents~
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn(Just A Pet), A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

striped corns ' story is in the books........

Ernie Wagner (old school dude ,,long ago )LOL.....got them from I think it was people in England.......

kept them striped.......

........just odd........just a thought........I never really heard of them being hybrids...

and if they are from Europe we know they weren't crossed with European rats if in fact USA and Europe rats cannot mix....

....Thanxx.........
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Yea, you have to wonder why Caramels show up as being identifiable in the hets. I can pick out het Caramels by the yellow coloring. Bloodreds, the same thing with picking out hets. To me this screems hybrid. No other morphs show up in hets, and by the rules of genetics they should not in pure species. It is when the outside genes of another species enter the equation that we see these anomalies.

You can identify het bloodreds by site? I'm not saying you can't, just this is first time I've heard of it so I'm curious what to look for.

I can't say anything in regards to caramel's or bloodred's hybrid status. However I was initially told by a published breeder that ultra's were basically recognized by all to be a corn x grey rat hybrid originally. Now what percent of hybrid genetic material other then the ultra gene remains I don't know but I suspect it is pretty small to negligible. I actually didn't realize that there were people claiming that ultra's were pure stock till recently. Not that all listings list them as hybrid but those that don't to which I've talked to immediately told me they had grey rat back in the lineage.

As far as striped I would actually be shocked if it was somehow proven that it came from a hybrid. The reason is the enormously high rate of 100% natural species containing a naturally occuring striped or abberant pattern morph(which could be selectively bred to produce a type of striped pattern). Similarly I don't see a reason why you would expect a striped version in a closely related species but not in the other.

Caramel's appearance is one that would surprise me less as originating from hybridization, although I've seen no evidence to imply it is, because it affects the overall coloration of the animal rather then just the pattern. Out of curiosity when you say you can spot het caramels by the yellow pigment do you mean over the entire body or in specific area's?

I would be reluctant to use being able to 'see' het traits partially express as a sign of hybridization though. There are plenty of examples in unpolluted species of genes that partially or wholly express when only hetrozygous for them. What you are really saying is that if a gene appears that is not a simple recessive(instead of co-dom, or incomplete-dom, etc..) that it must be the result of hybridization and that is normally not true for any given species.

I am not saying that what you are seeing may not be the results of hybridization, just that your rule/test for hybridization was too general.

Your right that I was overgeneralizing a bit about not recognizing hets. Generally speaking, for thinks like eye color, there is no way to tell if one is het for blue eyes.

As far as recognizing bloods, it is generally accepted that the diffussion, head pattern and partial belly chekering is present in het bloods. Recognizing Caramels is less predictable, but in my het Caramels (not het proven so I really shouldn't swear by it, but others semm to agree) there is a high yellow olive wash over the dorsal surface of the snakes.