Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First of all yes I know this is a monitor but I was specificaly told to ask you guys so here goes.
I have been asked by a member of another forum (I will not mention names b/c I know how some forums are about that) to ask you guys what your husbandry is like for bearded dragons. I have some views that have been tested by some very reputable breeders and I stick by them for the most part. Because of this I was called "close minded". So if you don't mind I would like to hear how you all keep your beardies, specifically the substrate and temps you use. I hope to learn something and I am always open to good ideas.
P.S. I love picts and thanks for any replys.
:-P

No offense, but without information like, what the heck your talking about, No ones going to help. More accurately, no one can. Also, we are not of one mind, much like you folks i imagine.

So start by giving us/me, the actual problem. You know, what you think is right, and what "they" are saying is right. You do not have to mention names, in fact, I don't want names.

But as a breeder of many reptiles, the more you produce, the more you refine it, a commerial breeder may take the direction of the most for the least.

With easy to breed reptiles(beardeds) its who can produce the most the cheapest. Not who can produce the most with the most cost and most work.

Which means, breeders can and do what type of husbandry, but small time breeders and keepers should not go by the minimum necessary. But should include husbandry thats enjoyable for both the keeper and the kept. Cheers

I myself keep Bearded dragons, and there are a few similarities between monitors and beardies, mostly in they are both Diurnal Lizards for the most part.

I myself keep the general colonies on sand substrate but if you have the space I recommend using dirt or something that holds moisture well, and make it fairly deep. I use sand to save space but am in the process of re-designing my enclosures, to eliminate this.

I keep females on top soil mixed with peat moss, about 50/50 mix holds moisture really well and is easy to burrow / lay eggs. I noticed that Walmart sells bags of Scott top-soil mixed in a similar fashion with no fertilzar might be a good source for a few bags but large colonies need lots of soil so it might be best to find another source.

I use Retes stacks exclusivly, I find they provide the dragons a muiltitude of basking areas as well as hiding spots. Frank really came up with something there. I don't make neat piles for two reasons one they re-arrange them anyways, and two with them at different angles and positions they can really crame themselves in where they want. Only down side crickets hide good to but they manage to find them eventually, little snacks here and there.

As for temps I keep the top of the retes stack at about 120-125 cool end during the day is in low 90's. I kept track of where they locate themselves and found this to be the best gradient. They don't bask 24/7 nor are they hiding from the heat. At any given time I can find a dragon just about anywhere in the cage.

I hope this helps and you get some additional info out mine and others posts.
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
1.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.9 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child

I apprecitate the reply. Now I have another qtn. Why do you thing sand and soil are good. Here is what I have heard and make since to me:
Bad b/c sand can cause impaction.
Both promote bacterial growth,
Both nearly impossible to sanitize,
(it sounds like you are breeding so I am sure you try to make things as easy as possible but) Both promote lazy owners who don't clean the cages as often.
I understand sand or dirt it necessary for breeding.

I very seriously doubt I will change from the tile but I am wondering how bad they really are and if I am generalizing to much when I say you should not keep beardies on these at all. If you disagree with tile pls let me know why. Also do you agree with calci-sand being bad.

Ok that substrate does not promote lazy keepers, in fact, You have to be on the ball to keep those substrates clean. You cant leave feces in there, and have to replace the top layer periodically. For Monitors, dirt hold moisture well, an important part of most monitors life, but Beardies, sand is fine. Impaction will only be caused if your heat gradient is not laid out well, in other words, cant get to the temps to have the digestive system at its best.

I actually have to disagree with that. I have seen many cases of impaction from friends and fellow forum members from imaption with a fine heat gradient. I will even see if I can get the x-ray picts for you.

what is a "fine" heat gradient. folks come on the forum all the time and say "temps are good" when what they actually have are HORRIBLE temps. on this forum we like detail, not words like "fine" and "really good" : )

impaction is about poor temps and hydration, not substrate choice, although you can also choose a horrible substrate as well.

there are many pieces to the puzzle. you can't have a great basking spot and horrible choices everywhere else and call it good.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I disagree with a lot of breeders with the info you provided. One they live on sand and soil in nature so they can deal with it. They don't eat either and its small enough to pass if they do. Problem with most imaction is a poor enviroment in the first place, if given proper temps, humidity, and food they thrive despite what others may say.

I think sand is bad only for on reason, I use it has an aid to myself, its easy to clean. I also don't use it for hatchlings as they eat everything anyway and I don't want to worry about them.

Also I don't sterilize or worry about bacteria, if they are healthy they can deal with that on there own. I don't keep the cage septic either, I remove fecal and un-eaten food regulary so I don't have a problem.

I breed for experiance not to make a profit sure I sell the young when I get them but for now I am just learning the ins and outs of their behavior. Someday I hope to step up to monitors, most likely I will begin with some Ackies. I plan to step up not jump in. For me the Beardies have been a great experiance I have learned a lot and they are cheap enough that when I make a mistake my wallet doesn't suffer, and I have made a few mistakes.

I don't think Tile is bad but its not best, I don't agree with calci-sand but others use it.

Mostly I don't agree with your questions in that you are certainly baiting the answers for an argument of which I want any part of.

Best of Luck

Jeremy

This argument has been going on for years. The problem is that both methods have proven successful. Personally, i keep beardies like monitors on dirt and much hotter choices to bask then the traditional "95-110*F". And i don't want to get into that debate anymore, either.

sorry to say this, but speaking as a pre-vet student with a herpetology emphasis, i'm going to have to say that keeping animals in such an overly sterile environment is harmful, microbial interaction is crucial for the immune system, otherwise no defense will be present when a microbe is actually experienced. Switzerland took your approach a long time ago to human lives and after a couple generations children had lost most of their immunity, they know better now. also, phyisiologically speaking, their feet are not used to concrete, no animal's feet can healthily withstand such a hard surface to live on, why do you think we wear shoes? and finally, behaviourally speaking, you want them to feel like they are in the environment they evolved in so they can be happy and thrive. and just because they don't know better doesn't mean they are happy, because you, the owner, should know better if you are going to take the full responsibility of animal ownership. listen to FR, research their environment not what breeder's cages worked best, and you should have a happier dragon at home. and tell this to your beardie "loving" friends in your forum please. sorry in advance if you post a response and it is a while before i respond. i only venture here occasionally.
-jake
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"I live for the nights I'll never remember with the friends I will never forget"

> > > I have some views that have been tested by some very reputable breeders and I stick by them for the most part. Because of this I was called "close minded".

> > > I very seriously doubt I will change from the tile but I am wondering how bad they (sand/soil) really are and if I am generalizing to much when I say you should not keep beardies on these (sand/soil) at all.

Doing what works for you and your bearded dragon is not being close minded. Thinking that your way is the "only" way, is being close minded.

I've never used ceramic tile so I couldn't personally say whether its bad or good for them. I know that tile can help with maintaining temps and keeping their nails worn down.

My bearded dragon is the first and only one I've ever had, so I'm not an expert, by any means. Mine was aprox. 6-in. long, 6 weeks old, when I bought it in mid-November of last year (2006).

I raised it on paper towels until it was about 10-in. long and then switched to play sand. I keep the temps a little higher than most care sheets call for and I make sure he gets plenty of water in his body. I've never had the first problem with impaction.

He drinks his water, he soaks himself sometimes, he eats his greens, eats rat pups, eats dusted crickets.

I use a branch on an incline in his basking spot. The top of the branch is usually between 115 - 118 degrees while the bottom averages around 105. The cool end averages about 85 degrees. Like "bighurt" said, my bearded dragon is all over the place in its cage. One minute he might be at the hottest spot on the limb while a few minutes later he he may be at the bottom of it, or on the cool end. His choice, not mine.

My beardie has done good under the conditions I have provided for it. Like I said earlier, it was 6 - 8 weeks old and 6 inches long when I got it at a reptile show in Atlanta on Nov. 12, 2006.

I didn't take any photos of it when we first got it so the first photo I have of it was taken on Dec. 5, 2006, 3 weeks after we got it. I don't know how long it was at the time the photo was taken. (see Pic #1 below)

The second picture (Pic #2 below) was taken Jan. 16, 2007, when it was 4 months old and 13-in. long. You can compare the photos to see about how much it has grown in just over a month.

It grew 7 inches within 2 months, more than doubling its size. That's an average growth of 7/8-inch per week.

I just measured it while posting this; it is 16.5-inches long now, and about 6, maybe 6 1/2 months old.

Like you probably did, I did a lot of research before getting mine. I found a website that seemed to confirm my theories on the care of Bearded Dragons. It is "outside of the norm." Here's the link in case you're interested: Dachiu

Oh, and should I even mention the fact that I don't use UVB lighting? I don't. My beardie hasn't seen the first UVB ray. I feel its not needed as long as careful attention to calcium & D3 supplementation is taken. (That may be the reason he flops around like a fish out of the water, but, I don't think so. I think that's due to something else. JUST KIDDING! LOL!)

I know of one person that feels that if anyone does any little thing different than what the typical care sheet calls for, they're WRONG. "By the book" is the only way for that person. That's being close minded. FR can tell you what it's like having to deal with "close minded EXPERTS."

Good husbandry is not "going by the book." Books and care sheets should be used as a starting point. Explore the needs of your animals, don't deprive them. Let them choose what's right for them. Each bearded dragon will not respond the same. Neither will each monitor or any other species.

Here are the pics of my bearded dragon:

Pic #1

Pic #2

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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

bearded keepers seem to have sand mentally mixed up with soil. i have seen again and again, keepers using/thinking about using sand/playsand.

yet, that type of setup is like a sandbox, or in nature, a sand dune. australia is not one big sand dune. neither is afrika. as Frank mentioned, these animals live on soil, and that is much different than sand.

a good soil substrate holds moisture well, digs well, burrows well. sand does none of those things. sand and soil are not interchangeable : )

and perches for basking. twigs, sticks and branches are for Chondros, tree pythons, not lizards. lizards are much better served with terrain based basking. larger, flatter areas that heat sink and provide a gradient. fence posts are often used in the wild, even that is much better than some snake twig. Retes stacks work phenomenally.

just some comments on two very common misapplications that i see widely used in the bearded world...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

The subject line was in jest, not trying to be a smart ---.

I agree that a soil mix would be better for Bearded Dragons, at least, it would be more natural, based on what I've read & heard. I went with sand because the room that my beardie is in is fairly humid and so my dragon wouldn't get discolored by dirt (dirty, dull, appearance). For it's final cage I'm considering trying a soil mix, though.

> > > and perches for basking. twigs, sticks and branches are for Chondros, tree pythons, not lizards. lizards are much better served with terrain based basking. larger, flatter areas that heat sink and provide a gradient.

I understand your theory. I have a large flat rock beside the branch on an incline, directly in the basking beam. The temperature on that rock is usually between 103 - 106 degrees. Instead of limiting him to the traditional 105-degree flat basking spot, I give him a choice to get warmer if he wants to.

If I increase the temperature in the basking area to 110 degrees on a flat surface it makes my overall temps too warm. Yes, maybe some more ventilation might do the trick but he's just about outgrown this cage & is ready for his final one.

I do appreciate your comments, Robyn.

Have a good one!
Mike
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

It is my opinion that beardeds should be kept nearly identical to ackies. In fact, I beleive SHvar did this long ago and bred the fire out of them.

Cheers,
Ryan
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There are three kinds of people in this world: people who can count and people who can't.

I agree with you Varanids Rock. I have found that my beardy colonies, rankins and uros all share the same temps with my monitors. Humidity varies above ground obviously, but as for the substrate- I give my beardies substrate and they seem to dig and shuffle about in it. My rankins and uros bury and tunnel in it. I think it also allows the female beardies somewhere to nest(as I don't like putting them in plastic dirt boxes just to lay) and makes searching and digging up eggs more fun just like our tortoises, turtles and others.

Hi Mike, did you know that Rankins were regularly nocturnal. Hmmmmmm. That is, I could not find them until I went road hunting at night. While vitticeps were out in the day, in the same area, Rankins were out on the road at night.

What is real funny is, they came out at night after rains and fed on masses of termites. Mitchells, P.mitchelli, were also commonly found crossing the road at night in W.A.

The most intriquing Bearded was P.microlepidota(sp) from the upper kimberlys, they actually ran like the wind. An odd trait for.

I kept beardeds early on, actually way before monitors, I had one for 16 years or so. I kept and bred them for years, our goal was 250 offspring per year, not a problem. Sand is not a good thing with them. Particularly man made sand. They are not keen on sandy areas, much more common in hardpack soils.

All reptiles benefit from a natural of temps. But beardeds are more tolerant then monitors as they often stay out for weeks and months at a time. When there is prey available, they live in dead trees(bushes to large bushes) In some areas in never gets cool. Just check weather maps. For instance a few days ago, I check Port Headlands temps and there was a 6 degree day/night variation. P.mitchelli is common there. I found an albino there, then the next year went back to where I found it and found a perfect striper, hahahahahahaha. Dang radioactive mining areas. Cheers

Thank you again Frank, that information is priceless. I'm going back to home depot today to bring some mental pictures to the physical world. Another day to make their world and mine more functional and fun. Thanks- Mike