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how long can a timor hide and go without food?

>>how long can a timor hide and go without food?

Until it get's thin again.
Sorry, not entirely helpful but reading below I got thinking of Winnie the Pooh stuck in Rabbit's door and how they had to wait for him to get thin again before pulling him out.
Personally, and seriously, I would put out food and add other hides and leave him alone for a day or two. What are his chances of dehydration? That would be a bigger worry to me.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

YOU WERE TOLD OF THE NATURE OF THIS ANIMAL. now you have to live with it. this is the nature of the Timor, it does NOT want to be seen by you. you are not going to change this.

now you have the responsibility to accept the empty cage syndrome, and offer terrific husbandry, including diet. the animal will eat when you are not around. and then go back and hide.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

robyn,
I KNOW I WAS TOLD THE NATURE OF THIS ANIMAL,
IM JUST ASKING A SIMPLE QUESTION. THE FIRST FEW DAYS I HAD HIM HE ATE IN FRONT OF ME AND ON ONE OCCASION OUT OF MY HAND.
SO DON'T TRY AND MAKE ME FEEL LIKE AN IDIOT.
SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OR GET OFF MY BACK.

They can go a long time (weeks) w/o eating if they are in good condition. Put food in the cage daily and put a web cam on the cage and you can see him in action via the spy cam. Many lizards will be "cool" when you first get them (they're disoriented and confused). Then they learn to bolt and hide in their favorite places when the keepers come around. He'll come out and eat/drink when "the coast is clear".

Was uncalled for, you are an idiot for not taking the advice and info Robyn offered.

By the way, with PROPER caging and husbandry an adult can go for weeks without food and not lose any weight. Keep in mind I said with PROPER CAGING and HUSBANDRY. This means with all of the options needed.
I to had a timor, I understood it was a hide and not see relationship before I got it, it took a long time for the lizard to come out and trust my presence in the same room.
Of course my timor ate when I wasnt watching most times, that a timor, a normal timor. I had that lizard for a long time, that lizard was over 9 years old when he went to his latest owner (been a few years now).

I think this lads just worried that his animal might be stuck somehow in whatever it was that it got jammed into.

I saw his previous post regarding it.

Now granted, I dont know Timor monitors from a hole in the ground, but I know a slightly paniced pet owner from a mile away.

Im guessing his lizard is still in the same hide spot it was before (2 days ago) and hes worried because he has yet to see it, and on a possible side note, it hasnt eatten anything?

Just relax bro. Listen to what these guys suggest, provide proper temps/food/humidity, and your animal should be ok. Try to get on a schedule with feedings and such so your animal can get used to your day to day activities and it will probably mellow out alittle, *ALITTLE*, over time. Granted, this sounds like a very "skitish" species (nocturnal?) and its gonna take awhile for the animal to get some trust in ya. Give it time, provide what it needs, best you can do.

If you notice the animal isnt eatting... well, thats when you should ask these folks for suggestions and take a look at your husbandry/enclosure to make sure they're up to par.

Just my thoughts.

Timor is like that, in fact they can see you from their hides, they have patience, they will sit and wait until you leave then come out. They will come out and stealthily return to the hide when they see or hear you from the other end of the house coming. Its just what they are, skittish, and they dont like people.

Missing in this conversation about timors.

Yes timors are very shy. But that has nothing to do with this conversation.

Humans live and die by HOPE. This individual and others, want THEIR individual(monitor) to be the exception(are you feeling lucky, mister?) Or they want to change it(to something its not)

Yes, you can get lucky(again are you feeling lucky) And yes, you can change it. But you must understand, that changing a monitor into something its not(very common here) normally has adverse effects on the monitor. As in, it will sooner or later kill them. The history on this forum without question supports that.

Whats important to understand is, its not about the monitor, its about the keeper. There are many reasons for their choices, and like many narcissisistic humans(a common trait with us all) We defend our choices, tooth and claw. This keeper will defend his decision with his life(actually, with the monitors life). Its too bad, the monitors are the ones who get punished for our bad decisions. It would be a much better learning tool if we were the ones punished instead of the monitors. But hey, we are narcissisistic, so lets blame them dang monitors and make them suffer the errors of our decisions.

As usual, I like to break it down to a very simple, easy to understand statement. This keeper is forcing a square peg, in a round hole. This is not the monitor for this keeper.

A timor only has one realistic qualification for becoming a newbies monitor, ITS CHEAP. End of that story. That is a bad choice and again the monitor will suffer. The keeper will merely whine, but the monitor will suffer.

The sad part and something that teaches me humans are not as smart as they think they are is, this person was told, over and over, that timors are a poor choice, but hey, its cheap.

This keeper may get lucky(better play the lotto) or have the exceptional timor(better play the lotto) or actually learn and become a better keeper and actually adapt to the monitor species he has aquired(don't play the lotto)(slim chance with this one)

So, lets hope this keeper cracks open the fake rock(next time do not buy a fake rock with a hole in it) and return it or allow this wonderful monitor(it is you know) to go to a home where the keeper understands the task as hand.

Which leads to this. A giant reason for varanid failure is, keepers have no idea of the task at hand. You do understand in order to accomplish a task, you need to know what that task is. However complicated or hoever simple, you need to understand the task. In this case, keeping timors is not a fun task, its a challanging task. A challanging task is better for those with experience. But then, thats just common sense and humans are lacking in that area. Cheers

thank you nile keeper
it seems you are the only one that reads my posts and understands english.
i had a simple question and i was worried.
period.
i didn't say i wasn't up for a challenge or i wanted to "play the lotto" and get lucky with a "tamed" timor.
you (other people) read way to far into my post and personally attacked me.
ok, so maybe you guys are monitor "pro's" (haha)
but please share information without the attacks.
GET OFF MY BACK.
and again (thanks nile for your patience and understanding)

Some of these guys are really lacking compassion for the keeper (thoough they have LOTS of compassion for the animals, which is very noble).

You were worried because your animal got crammed into a crevice and you're worried about its safety- thats good! Dont let them tell you otherwise. From what Ive read so far, my suggestion would be to continue providing optimal husbandry and more hides- eventually, the animal will come out and hopefully choose a new hide, at which point you can remove that stupid hollow rock.

These guys are a strange bunch. They have great advice, years (decades) of experience and some of them know more about monitors than you or me likely ever will.

You have to learn when to just take the information provided and ignore the snide remarks of these "monitor pros".

Ive noticed they like to tell people what that person can/cannot do or does/does not want, as well as what they were thinking.... bloody psychic lizard keepres, lol.

If you want my advice, get a book or find a reliable source of information about these animals and run with it.

Dont stress if you dont see your animal- like these folks said, they ARE skitish and they ARE masters of stealth. While you may not be able to see into that dark hide, the animal can see out quite well and... well, if you looked out your front door and saw a giant monitor walking around, would YOU go outside? Didnt think so.

A suggestion, if you REALLY wanna see your animal, would be A. use a video camera; or B. turn the lights off, post on the couch under a blanket and wait... and wait.... and wait... and you MIGHT see your animal going about its natural behavior. Not that it applies to Timor's at all (that I know of), but my Nile usually makes for it's hide when I enter the room, but if I post up for 10-15 minutes it usually comes out.

Provide what it needs, give it space and try not to cause too much strife in the relationship- ie, these animals have good memorys and everytime you muck up and lose trust, it's gonna take alotta time to regain it, if you ever manage to.

Granted, if what others have said regarding you buying this animal for the sole reason of it being cheaper than others... well, that wasnt a good idea, but it IS your responsibility now.

From what ive seen, these guys prefer to just tell you to ditch your animal at the first sign of difficulty or uncertainty, rather than try to get you to take responsibility for this beautiful creature in your home.

Theyd likely tell you its because in the history of their time taking care of monitors, they've heard alot of beginners screwing up and letting their pets die, mainly because they had poor info or made a poor choice in selecting their animal. Well, thats reality folks.

If you arent able to provide the proper home (really look at yourself here and ask yourself if you REALLY can provide what this animal needs) then get the animal to someone who can.

If youre willing and able to take care of this animal, then to hell with what these people say.

Take the information you can pry out of them and ignore the rants and nagging. If you drop to their petty level, get upset and argue with them, you're playing their game and thats not what you wanna do. Get what you need from these people and ignore the rest- most of what ISNT useful information IS useless rhetoric anyway.

That animal is your charge now. It is YOUR job to ensure that it has the optimal environment, temps, diet, etc., not pawn it off on someone else because someone on an internet forum told you that you cant handle it.

Take responsibility; read up on the species (everything you can find), talk to people that have experience with the species (1 on 1, not over these boards... attracts too much negative input from people who have nothing useful to contribute), and do your damnest to make that critter happy, even if its hard for you to manage.

wisconsin, stay determined, be patient, do your best. Make sure your providing what the ANIMAL needs, not whats optimal for you. Observe your animal when possible (without entering the enclosure/disrupting behavior) and see what it likes/dislikes.

Anyone that cares to comment, have fun. Dont care.

yep, go read a book. which one? 99% of them are simply awful.

i have another fantastic Timor monitor question-

"how can i force it to jump through a flaming hoop on command?"

that question is just as ignorant as "how do i force the Timor to come out of hiding?" and "it has been hidden for two days, is that bad?"

we don't hold hands on this forum. we don't sweet talk each other, and we don't "chat" about "what should i name him?"

what we do is TRY and talk about lizard husbandry and theory.

in the meantime, one after the other, a new guy shows up, asks "should i get a timor?", everyone says NO, and he gets it anyway. then he starts asking the worst questions that show a complete lack of understanding of even the basics. this is ignorant and offensive.

wis, if you want to hear how noble you are, or how "everything will be all right" (it won't) there are AOL and other reptile chat rooms calling your name. feel free.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

If the person provides proper husbandry (which I cant say that this person is one way or the other) then why wouldnt things be "all right"?

The person was worried about their animal and they came to you "experts" for guidance- what do you want them to do?

They never asked "how to force a lizard out of hiding". Infact, they asked if its possible for a Timor to get stuck or if its just natural behavior. He was told its natural. Now, its 2 days later: the animal hasnt moved and it hasnt eatten.

COULD it be stuck? Do YOU know what kinda rock thing hes talking about, and the space/dimensions inside it?

If its not eatting and has yet to remove itself from a hiding spot, maybe that warrants concern. Of course, theres about a million variables there that arent known.

These animals are shy, ok. They are stealthy (ie, not going to come out while you are around), ok. Both of those are understood.

However, if the thing isnt eatting, that could prove to be a problem (its only been 2 days, but give the guy a break, hes worried).

You're answer to someone making one mistake is to make another, by treating a worried keeper like a jack *ss.

Instead of sayin "Oh yeah, have fun trying to learn from a book! 99% suck." why dont you offer a book/website that might be worth reading? And if you dont want to, then just stay out of it.

Thats like someone who knows alot about cars telling someone that needs to be taught how to do an oil change that they dont know enough to handle it, then telling them that the book that explains how to do it is useless, followed by calling them ignorant for asking if the oil can leak.

The long and short of it is: this guy, maybe not knowing as much as he should, has an animal that likes to remain hidden. It found a hiding spot that he is worried it might get stuck in/whatever and has yet to come out.

If its just posted in there due to normal behavior... well, thats the lizard ya got mate. Shoulda done more homework if you wanted a move active lizard.

But if the animal is in distress, something this person wouldnt be able to see from outside the hollow rock, that might warrant worries.

How many days SHOULD he let go by without his animal eatting before he gets worried about it? True, these animals can prolly last quite awhile, but what the hell kinda treatment is that?

Instead of jumping on him, give him a simple answer like: "Dude, thats what Timors do- they hide." Infact, im pretty sure thats what happened on his previous post- people told him its natural timor behavior.

Now its been 2 days, the thing hasnt moved or eatten... should he wait 5 days? 10? 20? a month? before he starts to worry?

Honestly, I think he was taking what he *thought* was a step in the right direction asking for advice from you folks, people with lots of experience, who may have had this happen to them.

Theres a big difference between "holding hands" and spreading knowledge. Attacking someone who dosnt know any better isnt considered (by me) to be either. And it sure isnt gonna help the damn lizard.

Maybe Im missing something here about this guys husbandry, Im stressing here that I dont know enough of his setup/situation to make a 100% clear judgement.

But to me, it seems like yet another case of a slightly under-educated (in terms of monitors) person asking a "simple" question regarding the health/well being of his animal and being greeted by jaded "pros" that think anyone who hasnt raised generations of friggin lizards has no hope of ever learning, calling him "ignorant" because he cares enough to worry about it, instead of attempting to relax/help a person whose obviously worried over the well-being of their pet.

Good show.

If its natural behavior, you guys told him so, and it'll work itself out... literally as well as figuratively.

Is this worth stressing yourself out over?

You really don't know the keepers situation and/or setup, so what are you trying to defend against? I just really don't get it.

Sometimes its just better to be passive. When I got married, I learned how important it is to "pick my battles". It might possibly save you a lot of stress and anger.

Take the information you can get from the long term keepers/breeders here and/or go read those books you speak of, if you think they will offer better help.

Just a thought.

"ignorant" means lacking knowledge, it isn't a personal attack : )

99% of the books DO suck, that is why i found your recommendation of "go read some books" funny. see, it really isn't a good recommendation at all : )

i recommend folks read the Savannah Monitor book by Bennett at least three times a week on this forum. i SUPER STRESS IT on our website (check the top of our monitor price list). we have a giant FAQ section on the site devoted to husbandry, we have a Monitor Pro Pack, detailed care sheets, and a detailed monitor article that i wrote for Reptiles Magazine on our site as well. i send folks to our site perhaps 10 times a week on this forum. i am trying, i really am.

other posters recommend the Sav book frequently, other posters even recommend Pro Exotics site frequently.

so it doesn't take but a few minutes of reading the forum to find this info, and then be led to more info.

this guy so badly wants his new Timor to be something else. THAT is the problem. the monitor husbandry info is absolutely here if he would just look. heck, i would bet it is here ON THE FIRST PAGE.

do i HAVE to make more effort than that? : )

as Frank said, we have seen this six million times. advice is given out all the time, and ignored all the time. heck, i have this very conversation all the time : )

so what if it IS stuck? what do you do? smash it against the ground to get it out? drill it out? pry it out? there is no real good choice there either.

offer terrific husbandry, and all monitor husbandry is 99% the same, and let the animal use what is properly given. don't worry about your tender hearted feelings (wis).

nile keeper, i hope you stick around. you just have to get into the rhythm of the forum, i am sure this time next year you will laugh at the same goofy posts and blissful ignorance as well : )

i imagine it must be REALLY bad on the croc and gator forums, all the newbies that buy those things off the shelf of the pet store : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

wis, i swear, the answers to your problem are contained in my post right above. it is all there, directions to the husbandry info is there, you can absolutely access it.

i'll give you one more hint- i wouldn't take care of that Timor any different than i would take care of a baby Water monitor.

best of luck.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I understand where you guys are coming from. I guess its just my natural tendancy to jump in when I (think I) see someone getting ragged on unfairly. Maybe I was honestly worried about the welfare of the animal. Maybe I was just bored.

Couldnt really tell ya.

Anyway, sorry folks, havent quite learned my place yet. Ill shut up soon, promise

A question arose though:

If 99% of the books out there suck, how come none of the people who actually know what they're talking publish something? And not a pet-shop book, a realistic look at whats needed to properly care for the animal...

Well, I guess thats the baseline right there- pet shops want a book that says to buy the stuff they have and a real monitor book just wouldnt do that.

I know its not a huge market, but Id think you could make some scratch off it if you found the right way to get it to the people that need it.

It seems so much of the trouble that arises from monitor keeping is the owner just not knowing what they need to know/ not having the security in what knowledge they have to just make a simple common sense decision (much like this Timor situation) or leave it to the animal to make.

I constantly used to worry (before I got on here and asked) about the condition of my animal- he's my lil buddy! (even if he dosnt know it... or care, lol)

I want him to be happy and healthy, not because it makes ME feel better and not JUST because I wanna see the thing survive for entertainment- I like my Nile. Hes a quirky lil bugger and we have a weird kinda "dont touch me and we're cool" relationship. Already since Ive changed up the habitat abit, he (or she Im starting to think) seems happier (noticed a new area of shed today). But I used to worry alot about things, just because I wasnt confident (and shouldnt have been) in the knowledge that I had regarding this animal.

I didnt go out and buy this thing- Im the guy it got pawned off on. My friend made a stupid decision, 1.5 years and thousands of dollars later (do you realize how much it cost to ship a bloody Nile monitor from California to Pennsylvania?... actually, yeah, you prolly do...) and here I am. My options were let the thing die or take it- I took it. I didnt have much information regarding what was right for it, so I got what information I could... which, as things go, was bad information. I didnt have alot of money, so I did the best I could. The way I look at it, it cant be much worse than starving to death in some morons bedroom because he lost interest in spending the money to feed you, right?

Now I finally got to talk to someone who knows that what they suggest works for them and I can have security in knowing that its not complete bull doody...well, lets hope at least, eh? lol

That confidence in turn gives the abilily (at least for me) to not worry quite so much about whether or not the animal is recieving proper care.

Basically, what Im trying to say is, despite any outward appearance that I dont like/appreciate the "you people" of this site, I think the things you've accomplished are amazing and only hope I can one day say things like "Ive raised generations of this/that/the-other" and know I did it well, I really appreciate the information provided and Wander does too... thats the monitor btw... bet you cant geuss how he got THAT name, hehe.

Hey nile keeper, I live in Pittsburgh. You anywhere near here?

The thing is, and I've said it before, if people did'nt take things so personally and actually studied what some of these people are saying, put the advice to use, and posted the results, (some do) they would get more feed back. Most really should not own these animals. It takes a certain amount if ingenuity and many don't have it. I personally would rather be told like it is than have some sugar-coated BS shoved at me.

Roger

Yeah actually, Im from da Burgh as well.

If you know where 228 is, thats the road I live off. I think its in Mars, near the Butler line.

I live in MT. Washington. You ever been to that Butler reptile show? How about the Enclosure on Golden Mile Hwy?

Roger

Ive been to the Enclosure (that big cobra scares me), but not the Butler show. About 2 days after I moved back here, I blew about $200-$250 at the Enclosure on various things.

I wanna check out the Hamburg show at some point, which is like 2 hours North or something. Apperantly its pretty big and theres alotta crazy stuff to see.

I saw you mentioned that tub in another post and I have a question:

How sturdy are those stock tubs? Like, do they have ANY give at all to em?

I ask because I took the measurements today and Im about 3-4 INCHES from getting an 8' circular into my basement. I could go 6' and build an extended area out of wood/FRP, but Im not sure Id be up to all that woodwork. If they are even slightly maleable(sp?), I could probably get it through.

Any suggestions?

Side note: Im going off the assumption that a 6' circular tub might not be big enough for an adult Nile and Im really looking to find housing for this guy for the rest of his life. If Im wrong there, and a 6'-circular WOULD be sufficient, lemme know (granted, I realize theres alotta factors there, but Im really just looking for a yes or no in terms of floorspace- would an enclosure thats only 6' across be too cramped for a 5' lizard?)

Hey nile keeper, the tub is solid galvanized steel, no give dude. Thats about all I can say about it since I've never used them. My uncle is a texas rancher and we used to use one as a swimming pool when I was a kid.

That cobra is 15' long. Mark, the owner says it's dog tame and dosent even flair out.

I used plywood with a pond liner in the bottom 2 feet. No matter what you do there will be building involved. I've been building houses for 20 years so I can say it's really easy but I guess some people are'nt geared for it.

Roger

That cobra is frigging scary. Same with the green mamba thing.... *shiver*

Thanks for the info on the tub. I know therell be some building involved, gonna have to rethink things abit. I figured, being used with livestock, that the tub wasnt gonna have any give to it.

Im gonna take alittle time and think over exactly what I want to do and then find the best way to make it go down.

This is something very odd to me. This forum is far better then a book. Its much like your monitor(should be), its alive and growing.

I have to disagree with those that say the books are bad, They are much like this place, theres good and bad information in all the books. Only you do not know what is good or bad.

Books are mostly published by folks without any experience, they are book writers. These people need others to do the "work" Then they gather information. The problem is, there are few workers who actually DO the work. Understand, those that do, do, (not doodoo) those that write, write. That is particularly true here.

Even the best books, Like Daniel Bennetts books, are not based on his knowledge. Daniel has less then no experience keeping monitors. Hes just very good at gathering information.

In the case of the Sav book, they wrote the book after the authors very first successful attempts. WITH ONE FEMALE. Then she failed and its been years, but again that author is finally getting a tiny bit more successful experience. After a while, he will finally figure out what is important. But he already wrote the book. Its a shame too, they wrote the book because it was needed, but still to this day, even after they wrote the book, its still needed. Hmmmmmmmmmm so what good was that book?

The book itself was based on my husbandry. As in, a knock off. But not a very good knock off. They took odatriad husbandry and applied it to a larger monitor. Which will work as a base, but needs some adjustments. They did not make those adjustments.

The point is, books are dead, that is, they cannot explain themselves or grow. You know, get new chapters. If the author continues to gain experience, its not reflected in the book.

Here in this book, you can see(I mostly post pics on our site) updates on a daily basis. You can see mistakes and successes, as they happen. Monitor keeping is a stream, its flowing and changing. Caresheets and books are a pond, they don't change. They just dry up.(at least around here)

So this is the best book ever, but like the other books, you have to pick what is right and what is bull poopy. As books and these places are full of bull poopy, and full of good stuff. I least here you have a chance to have the book show support. You can question this book. Sadly most do not question, they attack.

I always say, keeping monitors is all about decision making. Kinda like racecar driving. You can teach a potential driver all there is to know, but its meaningless unless hes good at making decisions(no fear). A driver reacts to the race and the changing conditions. Thats what a successful varanid keeper does.

Yes, there are some very basic rules, but they are only of meaning until the race starts, then you have to make decisions.

Keeping monitors is making decisions, its not about knowing something. Too many here pride themselves in knowing something(even if it is wrong) To bad, its not about knowing, its about driving. You drive the monitors.

One more fact, much like race car drivers, to crash is inevitable, you just hope you do not get hurt to bad, so you can race somemore. Cheers

so really all the monitors in captivity are screwed, we might as well have them all eat a bullet. or, state laws should just ban people from owning them (monitors altogether) because obviously people can't handle the overwhelming task of taking care of something.

I HAVE A TIMOR MONITOR AND WOULD LIKE INFORMATION NOT ATTITUDE. THANKS
SO "YOU PEOPLE" GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND LEVEL WITH US "AMETEURS" BECAUSE YOU KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT ME AND MY MONITOR DON'T YOU.?!?!?!?

You were given lots of information. You kinda ignore it.

Also, no one can accurately tell you anything about your monitor. ITs in your cage, some conditions will case it do die quickly, other conditions will cause is to last for a long time and still fail. I can say, I do not what what the heck your conditions are, so no answer for you(soup nazi).

All in all, its your problem to deal with. So its yours to solve. The truth is, if you take the timor out of the rock. It will attempt to find another SAFE place. If you provide safe places, it will hide in them. THATS WHAT EVERYONE IS TRYING TO TELL YOU. Its a visious circle. To keep it healthy, its going to be hiding and your going to be worrying. You take it out of its hiding and it stresses, back to hiding, back to worrying, 4$&$%$&&%$###@ dang I got dizzy and hit my head.

This is kinda a Dr. Phill moment, you own that monitor, its your responsibility. So own up to it. Its at your house, YOUR THERE. What your hoping for is a Doctor making a diagnosis without seeing the patient. YOU have the patient and we have not even seen pics. No soup for you.

Of course, we have what your saying. But what the heck do you know? If you cannot solve this simple problem, is mostly because you do not know what is important. So you do not understand what imformation is important to us. No soup for you.

If you want REAL help, go build a relationship with a vet. You may need to see many to find a good one, but there are good ones. They may have soup for you.

My bet is, you already know this, but there is one problem, the vet costs money and we are free. So I say, what the heck do you expect for free? No soup. Cheers

Ok... not to get off topic here, but....

that was by FAR the best seinfeld tie-in on a message board ive ever seen.

kudos.

Thanks, I hope to make it fun, not just about nothing. Althought it would be a great idea if it was about nothing. Cheers

actually Frank has been sweet talking me since day one and sends me several pms a day suggesting I name this one "Fluffybutter" and that one "Jaws", etc.

Kind of irritating really but I try and humor the old man you know.

Tom

Us long timers are not only experienced with monitors, but with monitor PEOPLE. I would imagine you could look it up in the archives.

You come here and think your unique, your the only "you". But unfortunately, "you" have been here before, and before, and before oh about every month, day, week, etc. When I say you, its a human, that says the same things, does the same things, responds the same way.

So while you come here all fresh and new, your actually very very old to us. You(the U's) come and go like the wind. Your like a New York taxi, another will come by in a few minutes, if you miss the first, then catch the next, etc. This is why I get you all confused(your too alike)

There are 200,000 or so Savs imported a year, and that makes 150,000 of U's that get them. And a certain percentage come here. The timor fella is a rare U.

So until you prove your not just another U(the human attached to a Sav/nile/timor(any inexpensive monitor))Then I/we, cannot tell you from all the other U's

U all come in with the same cage ideas, the UV question, the varied diet(whoops that a more advanced U) And in most cases, U all do not want to hear the truth about monitors, U's all want to hear what the pet shop told you(sales gimmick) and that all that money you spend(on crapola) was well spent. Then get mad at us when we tell you something different.

So no, we do not know anything about humans, just monitors, so forgive us. Cheers

But what about the majic recipe? You know the one where I don't have to think and someone just tells me exactly what to do in any given situation, We know you have a crystal ball and are able to see exactly what is going on with our monitors from afar. So come on FR, Robyn What can you do for us. Oh, yes and please don't tell us anything we don't want to hear either, we get very upset when you do that. Please be nice to us as well, we dont like being told we are not smart. It hurts our feelings.

Thank you

Roger

It's a timor, timors hide. Your's found a good place to hide.
Leave the fake rock in there, the lizard feels safe squeezed in it. Quit mucking with it, offer food water and maybe you will see it on occasion.
Geeze, it aint rocket surgery................

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Reminded me of something important. You know, with the Crystal ball thing.

Many people think because I/we, have monitors, are successful with monitors that we have answers. They think we may have had these problems and have answers for them.

The truth is, I(i will only speak for myself) have lots of monitors and for a very long time now. And yes, some of these problems have been solved. The problem is, not with one simple answer.

I do recognize what a problem is, but most often it takes many tries to fix it. Which means, my first or second or even my third attempt(answer) was not working(not right) so I try something else. And these folks what an answer right off and have it be right and we don't even have the monitor. Or know what ACTUAL conditions its in. Somehow, they all say the conditions are good, yet they all have problems.

You are so very right, THERE IS NO ONE ANSWER, OR NO GROUP OF ANSWERS, they is merely a problem solving approach.

What makes me so darn good at this is, I do not think I am smart, or important, or whatever these people think about me or themselves. I simply try something then when it fails, try something better.

I have no need to feel right, or be right, I am just learning and having fun. Whats more fun, the home run or the swing that made the ball go over the fence? hahahahahahaha After a while, its not the home runs, its without question the swing. You can close your eyes and hit a home run, but without a good swing, you will not hit many. Cheers

All I can say is that I have yet to run into a problem that I could not figure out. It's simply a process of elimination and looking through past threads on the monitor fora. Some things stump me, Like I have umpteen million questions about breeding but as I study these posts more and more I realize that even things that seem complicated really boil down to basic husbandry and my own problem solving skills. This stuff takes work and a certain amount of trial and error. I think people need attention so they ask questions for the sake of hearing themselves and to validate their shortcomings as being OK.

Roger

Trial and error and common sense. The common sense goes a long ways.

I think a big problem with most people(not you per say) is they want an answer, before the question is asked(the monitors being the ones asking) They do too much preventive medcine.

I think you start and herd the animals towards success. I am not so sure, herd, is the right word. But there is no one this or one that. There are bunches of rights and bunches of wrongs. You "herd" them in the direction of the rights. Not a single right, just one of the rights. Does that make sense.

like nesting, you will not know until you have a gravid female tell you, your setup was not right. Or it was right. Then the next time you may do the same thing that was right and it does not work this time.

We are working with animals, its not a stinking test in biology class. There are no absolutes.

I think biology somehow gives the impression that there are right and wrong answers to everything. That there is a black and white method to everything. To bad, there isn't, its simply herding the cattle to greener pastures. Cheers

if I,m reading you correctly. Give them many options and allow them to go to the ones they want/need. Focus on the ones they use and remove or change the ones they don't. Fine tuning husbandry. More speciffically answer to their needs.

Roger

So what you are talking about in your first paragraph is upside-down thinking. Rather than focus on the negative of prevention so much and in essence limit possibilities, provide options. Options that can aid in success. A good example might go like this; "Everyone says dirt is good for my monitor for many reasons, humidity, activity, nesting, etc, etc. However a couple of people said dirt causes impactions so rather than risk the impaction, I'll stick with mulch." Another; I know my monitor is not arboreal but everyone says these climb from time to time for different reasons, basking, vantage point. However a couple people told me that my monitor could possibly fall asleep on the tree and fall and get hurt so rather than risk that, I'll not provide anything for it to climb on." So one with common sense can easily tell that both lines of thinking take away things that provide vehicles for physical and mental wellbeing. Subtract a few more for the sake of prevention and what do you have? Back to 80*-95*F and bare floors and newspaper right.

Roger

i have been posting on a bearded forum, TRYING to get folks to come into modern times, and i swear to fluffybutter, someone posted this reply regarding humidity, temps, and using a tile substrate- "why risk anything?"

the thought was- using tile, keeping it ass wrinkling dry, and topping basking out at 105F eliminated all risk. the complete lack of logic, thought, and comprehension is astounding...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

All newbies and their newby defender (oh your so noble)takes the discussion.
The answers to the questions are there, in fact over and over and over. Somehow both of you have ignored the answers and focused on insults that are not there, or read into what was typed some non-existant attitude. It is impossible without directly insulting someone in writing on a forum to express attitude, so how and where do you both see it?
The problem is in all your research you failed to understand that if you have no basis to understand the subject at all, you will not understand the answers given by those who have experience in that subject. This is where knowledge and research would start you off, if you actually did it.
The problem is also you fail to realize as FR said that the lizard does not want to change, why, its survival relies on it doing what got it to this day, and yesterday, not what the ignorant new keeper wishes or wants.
By the way if you follow those books you will be back with a new monitor in weeks or months asking for more help, only more misguided and confused.
Keep in mind that these are wild animals, they do not want to be lap-dogs.If the keeper wants to have a long lived happy timor they need to realize that they need to let it be a timor monitor.
Also I found that they prefer to make their own burrows and squeeze under logs and rocks in tight spaces. A good friend that I gave one to said he didnt see the pair of timors for 2 weeks at a time, this was a regular occurance, their cage was in the room his family spent most of its time in also.
Timors are not good or even close to decent newby monitors.

even though we have had this discussion about "you hurt my feelings" 60,000,000 times, and we have even explained that we have had it so many times, it IS something different to type than just "go read my site".

it is the drama of our own little micro world, as if any of this mattered to even .001% of the world population.

heck, i bet there was some heated discussion on a snake forum right here at kingsnake this week, and none of us are any the wiser : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

>>
>>heck, i bet there was some heated discussion on a snake forum right here at kingsnake this week, and none of us are any the wiser : )
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>>robyn@proexotics.com
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>>Pro Exotics Reptiles
>>

hmm... yep. too bad it got removed... oh wait.. maybe it was the Uromastyx forum. too many forums to keep track of. I get confused.

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PHWyvern

The point was not the answers, they did not intend to follow the advice, nor did they intend to seek help.
They sought drama, they wanted their mark, their place, their post to stand out on the forum. Its no fun to read back and find the answers you seek in the forum from the many who have done or tried the same and were in the same position.
After all thats admittting that you are wrong to yourself, its more fun to argue and try to defend what you have done, but only seek someone to agree with you and to get a pat on the back.
The whole soap oprah/Springer drama becomes the primary concern, unfortunately the monitors suffer for it.
I also remember another example where a poster said "but this is the first time I posted this, I dont care how many times it was asked before".