Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am the proud new owner of a seven month old male BRB. He is an awesome little camper. I have had him about four days now. When i first got him into his new home he loved it. went exploring found his favorite spot and has been chilling ever since. I am really determined to ensure that he is a happy guy. I have been obsessive over keeping a 77-82% humidity and an ambient temp of 83 with a basking spot of 87 and a cool side of 79. Now here is the strange part I cannot figure out. Last night I went to take him out for his usual nightly handling and he chilled around my hand for a few minutes then started exploring then climbed back up onto my hand, and for lack of a better word, passed out. Just kind of went limp, he was still aware and moving and whatnot but was not using any strangth to keep himself attached to my hand. I got scared and thought maybe he got shocked by the room temp vs tank temp so i quickly put him back in the tank, and he seemed to immediately recover and went off to his favorite hide spot. I took him out this morning and he did the exact same thing, this time as soon as i removed him from the cage. Is something wrong with him physically? or is he expressing displeasure at being handled? Am i doing something wrong? whats teh deal? I am really trying to make sure he is a happy little guy, but passing out is kind of strange... any help helps... Thanks

Wow, really odd, never seen anything like that. You sure his great grandpappy wasn't an oppossum?

Any other oddities? How was his temp coming out of the shipping box?

BTW, IMO temps are a few degrees high. I keep my babies in a shoebox rack and aim for 77 degrees. What's the temp of his favorite spot?

Any chance of cologne or other foreign smell on your hand?
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
13.18 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

He actually likes to hang out both on the hot side and the cool side. When he first got there he spend his time on the hot side, now hes been chilling more on the cool side. That comment about the hand smells might be dead on though. i had just washed my hands with some handwashsoap. Is there anything specific i should use before handling him that doesent have any scents?

Let me describe more specifically what he did. About half his body was on my hand the other half on my lap, my hand was about four inches above my lap. he was coiled around my thumb and two of my fingers with his head facing me and down over the top of my thumb... he kind of picks his head up and then seems to fall backwards, unlooping around my thumb, his head does a complete 360 around my thumb and he kind of goes limp, no muscle reflex holding onto my other fingers, basically he twirled his head around my thum one and a half rotations, like a gymnest on a bar, then went semi limp, he still seemed aware, but was definitely not exhibiting any strength. if he was a human i would say he was acting drunk.

star gazing mb? anyone??? ive never seen a snake do it myself only read about the symptom

Honestly, I've had hundreds of baby BRB's and never seen anything like what was described.

Where/how did you get him. Please, NO names, or would probably be deleted.

Pet store / online / show ?

Brought home by you / shipped via??
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
13.18 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

that maybe after being on the hot side for the first couple of days then was plenty warm enough went and sought comfort on the cool side and may need water and just never found it quite possibly. After having him out on your lap he may have been like a runner running out of steam and just collapsing after moving some meaning maybe dehydration and got dizzy (like he was sipping some liquor). What do ya'll think about that and would your wet pillow case case apply here Dave C.?
Yes I was thinking of possible inbreeding and weak genes too but like Dave said where did you get him from?

Bob

I got him from a local pet store, that was highly recommended. I found him there about three weeks ago. I made several visits over that time and did a ton of research before i made the final decision. In that time I have had no doubts about the quality of the pet store, not that i am an expert however. All animals looked to be healthy and well looked after, and they had a fairly large reptile selection...I will also say that he was housed with his brother until the day i got him. His brother sold the same day surprisingly.

Something else i just thought of. The card on his habitat at the pet store had a brief description with his birthdate as well as a comment to the effect of " produced by well known breeder XXXXXXXXXX" I dont remember the name but if the pet store went through the trouble of giving the name of the breeder i would think it is someone of some repute.

How was the enclosure at the pet store? Well sealed with minimal ventilation? I ask because one of my babies from 2005 was at a pet store and they ignored my instructions and put him in a screen topped 10 gal with a heat lamp. DUH he got dehydrated and I had to nurse him back to health.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
13.18 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

No, it was a sealed rack type enclosure. They had several snakes all of which appeared to be well cared for and in optimal conditions. As much so as a pet store can provide. But like I said, i am no expert so I couldnt really tell you if they were doing something really wrong, but all the usual stuff seemed right.

OK at this point unless some of the other guru's step in, I'd say watch and wait. As suggested, get your temps a little lower and wait to feed. Always a good idea to wait to offer fis=rswt food anyways. Let him settle in.

Several babies I sent out last week as 3 or more month old, tame babies were nippy after arrival. Shows how the new environment can stress out a baby snake.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
13.18 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

That was the first thing that popped into mind after his detailed description. But i've never had a case of IBD in my collection (and fingers crossed never will) so I can't give another opinion other than it sounds like maybe its neurological?
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1.1 96, 04 Het Albino - "Suzie" & "Lumpy"
0.1 03 Poss. Het Albino - "Ami"
0.1 05 Super Salmon - "CreamSicle"
0.1 04 Anery Het Snow- "Squelchy"
1.0 04 DH-Sunglow - "Dwayne"
1.0 06 TH-Moonglow - "Gargamel"
1.2 01 BRBs- "Gobball", "Larva" & "Tofu"

BigDave,
..How and where are you measuring those temperatures?
Jeff

>>I am the proud new owner of a seven month old male BRB. He is an awesome little camper. I have had him about four days now. When i first got him into his new home he loved it. went exploring found his favorite spot and has been chilling ever since. I am really determined to ensure that he is a happy guy. I have been obsessive over keeping a 77-82% humidity and an ambient temp of 83 with a basking spot of 87 and a cool side of 79. Now here is the strange part I cannot figure out. Last night I went to take him out for his usual nightly handling and he chilled around my hand for a few minutes then started exploring then climbed back up onto my hand, and for lack of a better word, passed out. Just kind of went limp, he was still aware and moving and whatnot but was not using any strangth to keep himself attached to my hand. I got scared and thought maybe he got shocked by the room temp vs tank temp so i quickly put him back in the tank, and he seemed to immediately recover and went off to his favorite hide spot. I took him out this morning and he did the exact same thing, this time as soon as i removed him from the cage. Is something wrong with him physically? or is he expressing displeasure at being handled? Am i doing something wrong? whats teh deal? I am really trying to make sure he is a happy little guy, but passing out is kind of strange... any help helps... Thanks

I have a hygrometer/thermometer that I have moved around the cage, checking both high and low for each of the three sectons, midrange, cooler and warmer. after taking everyone's advice and dropping my temps a bit i am at 75 in the cool end 79 in the middle and 83 on the warm. I am running at a fairly constant 75% humidity.

Are you measuring floor/substrate temps?

Or are you measuring temps some height off of the floor/substrate?

The reason I/we ask is floor temps are the critical temps as that's where the BRB spends most of it's time. We've seen others that worked hard to maintain perfect temps.....except they were measuring them halfway up the cage.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
13.18 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I accounted for this, i took measurements at both floor level and half way up, i saw on average a two degree drop in temp at midrange as opposed to ground level. I also noticed a 3% average humidity drop at midlevel. All of these though, as far as i know and please correct me if i am wrong, are well within standards of care for these guys... the numbers I am quoting to you are from ground level at the middle of the cage, as that is where i leave the hygrometer/thermometer when i am not actively checking naother part of the cage. I handled him briefly this morning to check on him and he seemed perfectly normal. I am really hoping that this was an isolated spazz on his part.

Thanks for the info, at this point, I guess it's wait and see.

Sorry to ask such basic questions, just have to cover the bases!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
13.18 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

very much like to hear how things turn out. Very interesting thread.

Also,

Welcome to the forum, you'll like it here, lot's of cool folks and rainbows all over the place!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
13.18 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Not a problem at all, I respect the opinions of those more versed in something that me so i have no problem clarifying anything.

Without seeing the animal it's very hard to judge but you have described symptome of IBD, a very conatgeous viral disease found in boas and pythons. Whie it could be IBD, this condition is very rare in collections. You might try and get in touch with the person who bought his cagemate to see if he is showing any signs.

More likely, your snake has some type of neurological disorder caused by something in its environment. Temperature immedaitely comes to mind. I have seen snakes exhibit "stargazing" symptoms as soon as half an hour after being kept too warm. To me, your cage temperatures sound fine and the animal can get out of the heat if neccessary. However, if the animal was kept too warm at the store, or if temps spiked in the car on the way home or if your cage experienced a temp spike, then damage could have been done.

It is possible that the disorder could have been caused by some other environmental factor. It may be congenital and no one ever noticed it until you began spending a lot of time with the snake.

I don't mean to be all negative. this is just based on my own experiences. All of the cases I have seen have either been permanent or lethal. I have seen snakes live many years with these symptoms and make good pets.

In my humble opinion, unless the cause of the condition can be 100% identified, the snake should not be used as a breeder. If the store is reputable and if you haven't had the snake for to long, you might ask them if they will take him/her back. If you want to watch and wait, you may still have a nice pet on your hands. I'll go back and read the posts. I forgot if you mentioned if the snake was eating or not.

Again, sorry for the bad news. Just trying to be staright up. But, like I said, without seeing the animal, it's ahrd to say. Maybe it's nothing at all. Good luck with him
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Thanks for the input. I have no idea what IBD is. However, he ate on sunday and was real quick about it, and precise i might add. Also, today when i got home i went to check the moss in his hide to make sure it was still damp and I had to move him int he rprocess and he seemed perfectly normal and aware, even made an escape attempt up my arm as i was misting his tank. It may just be wishful thinking on my part, but he doesent seem to be in any sort of discomfort or unhealthy so im hoping he was just being a spazz on an occasion. Is there anything particular i should watch for over the next few days to make any sort of daignosis?

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Hopefully, it's passed and this turns out to be nothing. keep us posted O.K.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Two thoughts that I had,
First are you using any commercial mite contol sprays in his incloser? Some of these can cause neurological symptoms if water is put into the cage to soon after spraying. I knew a guy who sprayed his BCI cages with the water bowls in them and by the next day about a 3rd of them were star gazing. They all recovered fine after a good cleaning and airing out though.

Another thought, is from an experience I had a couple of years ago. I had a litter of BRB's kept individually in tupperware cages on moss that had been purchased from Petco or Petsmart, one of the big box stores. I lost half of that litter and all the ones that died acted similair to what you are describing. After having a few of the dead ones necropsied, I was told that they had found evidence of Cryptosporidium a protozoan parasite that attacks the intestines and causes diherrea in humans, especially people with lowered imune systems.
Apperantly, it can be dormant in an almost hybernation state until exposed to heat and humidity. It was assumed that this came in with the moss that I had purchased as the parents and siblings did not have it. The parents, I bought as young adults and they have exclusively been in my care for about 7 years. The babies were also fed rat pinks from my own bredding stock. The only outside influence was the moss. I now keep my newborns on papertowels. I have since had another litter from these same parents and I haven't had any other problems with their offspring.
Milo

Dave,
..The behaviour you describe sounds like a neurolgical problem. The temperatures you reported are a little warm. If you are measuring them up near the top of the cage and heating the cage from underneath the temperature down near the bottom where the snake spends most of it's time could be way to hot. Temperatures too hot can cause neurological symptoms. The oils from some woods will cause neurological symptoms in snakes.
Good luck,
Jeff

>>I am the proud new owner of a seven month old male BRB. He is an awesome little camper. I have had him about four days now. When i first got him into his new home he loved it. went exploring found his favorite spot and has been chilling ever since. I am really determined to ensure that he is a happy guy. I have been obsessive over keeping a 77-82% humidity and an ambient temp of 83 with a basking spot of 87 and a cool side of 79. Now here is the strange part I cannot figure out. Last night I went to take him out for his usual nightly handling and he chilled around my hand for a few minutes then started exploring then climbed back up onto my hand, and for lack of a better word, passed out. Just kind of went limp, he was still aware and moving and whatnot but was not using any strangth to keep himself attached to my hand. I got scared and thought maybe he got shocked by the room temp vs tank temp so i quickly put him back in the tank, and he seemed to immediately recover and went off to his favorite hide spot. I took him out this morning and he did the exact same thing, this time as soon as i removed him from the cage. Is something wrong with him physically? or is he expressing displeasure at being handled? Am i doing something wrong? whats teh deal? I am really trying to make sure he is a happy little guy, but passing out is kind of strange... any help helps... Thanks

Hey Dave,
You may want to find a vet in your area that specializes in reptiles/snakes, I have 2 baby BRBs that I am nursing back to health after they both arrived to me with respitory infections. A trip to the vet will put you at ease if they find nothing wrong and will also let you know if something is wrong what you can do about it. A good vet could also treat for parasites (if any) and sex the snake for you if it wasnt already (or double check what the petstore told you!)Either way, best of luck. I was lucky enough to find a great vet in Massachusetts and I'm sure you can find one in your area also.
-Dave

Maybe I missed it in the other posts but one thing that struck me as bad that nobody commented on, was this. You indicated you take your new BRB out every day, and also indicated you had him only for 4 days. A new snake should not be handled at all after being placed into their new home. They need time to adjust to the new environment and get comfortable.

He may have 'collapsed' in your hands due to being highly stressed while being handled. The weird 360 thing may just be him moving his head/neck out from between fingers. It could be disease as well, as others suggested but from what what I have read about IBD, testing for that disease is very difficult and not something that is easily done on a live animal (I could be wrong).

I suggest leaving your new snake alone for at least a week. Only go into his cage to clean up after him and fill the water dish. Offer food in a weeks' time (I do see you posted he ate on Sunday, or very recently), let him eat, leave him be for another 48 hours, then take him out of the cage to handle. See if he exhibits any of the limpness you felt before etc.

I also suggest keeping him completely isolated from any other pythons or boas you have. If he does have IBD, which is highly contageous, keep him away from your other animals, do not wash his cage utensiles with those used with other snakes (in fact, keep a separate set of tongs, dishes etc) for him and him only and change your clothing before handling other snakes after handling him. Or better yet, handle/clean/fed him last.

Hopefully he was just being loopy or over stressed, and once he is well settled in, he acts like a perfectly healthy BRB should.

Oh and IBD is Inclusion Body Disease. Below are some links about it:

www.anapsid.org/ibd.html

www.kingsnake.com/articles/Kingsnake/JeffRonne.html
THe above link is a transcript of a chat with Jeff Ronne. May take some scanning to find where he talks about IBD

www.vetpathology.org/cgi/content/full/37/5/449

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PHLdyPayne