Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As I was scrolling through the king snake ads tonight I was painfully reminded of what happens in our hobby when we flood the market with snakes.

The WS Brooks is a recent fine example of this. Honestly it's pretty darn sad what happened to that morph $500 down to $75 in one years time....amazing....amazingly irresponsible! I really feel sorry for those that bought into this line...yup I was almost one of them. What I don't get is why mass produce a $300-500 snake if you're not willing to hold out and get the $$ it's worth. Oh well, there is always 2007 and heck maybe I can get a pair for $25.

Off my soap box.
Russ

Very true Russ, but they did hold at 500 a piece for a few years,,,,maybe as many as 5 years? Timing is everything...
Tom Stevens
-----
TomsSnakes.com

At a local herp show this past weekend there were a couple of well started 2006 W/Sided hatchlings priced very low.. (I think about $100ea)

And, i was very surprised to see them NOT sold at the end of the show...

~ Mike

Russ,
I am going to repeat what NokturnalTom said and that is the snakes held at $500. for a remarkably long time AND SOLD.

They started at $500. about 6 years back (approx) and they held on to the very end. I guess if you are going out might as well be with a radical drop after being held at top dollar for so long rather than a yearly decline.

I also think that a lot of the recent ($100-$75.) WS brooks don't look as good as the original line . After outcrossing them to other lines (and thats what we see now) they tend to favor the WS blackrat in looks with a dirty sides and wider topstripe. The color has also gotton darker and muddied up. I wonder what these 4th gen animals will turn out. I think we will see a resurgence in price '08-'2010.

Now this was a short but great reply Rainer. I saw a well known breeder buy a trio of white sided brooksi adults not long ago and he told me he didn't care what market value was, that he'd set a price well above that and felt he'd get it as he has a lot of regular customers. The ones he scored were realy nice. I always pay extra for the best, and lots of people do.
So if every other person out there has OK looking ones and you have above average ones should you not ask more for them? Why not? I do! I see some people who get "stuck" with babies and keep dropping the price as the snake ages and gets larger. If anything the older larger snake is worth a bit more so that is just a lousy move on thier part. After acquiring great stock, raising them and producing babies you'd think more people would have patience....and also really enjoy keeping the babies for a while. I agree totally, that we should not be surprised to see some nicer versions of the regular white sides appear and that the price may go back up a bit.
Sure the market got flooded, it happens. But the fact remains that good business practices and a solid rep will help along with great pics and rock solid babies that people will feel are well worth the price Tom Stevens
-----
TomsSnakes.com

IMHO the biggest problem isn't so much overproduction as it is people producing them who have made no plans for how they are going to market them. They are also the ones how freqently don't have the best of the best. In most cases you get what you pay for.

I don't understand the correlation......

Not having "plans" to market your stock equals having poor stock?

I disagree (imagine that).

I think those whose animals are nothing more than dollar signs tend to not take the time to get them started properly, raise up and purchase nicer stock and so forth. Some folks toss their not-eating babies to their bigger kingsnakes rather than taking the time to get 'em started right. There's always a trick...

How about not being able to get your babies started and selling junk or less-than-advertised animals.

Hmmmm....that individual would have HAD to had some sort of "plan" to sell the offspring so I definitely disagree.

Or perhaps I just do not fully understand.

Chris

I don't think that's what he means. I have not been doing this all that long but I have seen some people shop around for the cheapest price they can find for a snake. There's nothing wrong with that but if you're actually going to use the term investment and hope to make a return why not try and get the best examples of your snake of choice?
Finally people produce babies and if they do not really have a name for themselves they usually start off pricing things lower than average, and if they don't sell then they get marked down again. I would not doubt they soon realize maybe if they had spent thier cash on better looking stock they'd probably have produced nicer babies,got a fair price for them and sold them a lot easier.
Many also think that some people who pride themselves on their animals take better care of them. I have spoken to people who seem iritated as they add up the amount of food a snake consumed and figure they aren't going to make very much money and the next thing you know the famous "blowout" ad is on the classifieds. This only makes the snakes look even more worthless.
I have seen people buy a bunch of baby snakes to raise as breeders and not do much over the few years they raise them to adulthood. Then the babies come and they're overwhelmed. They think an ad on the classifieds is all it takes....sometimes that is true and sometimes it isn't.
Anyway...what I get from Tonys post is that people who get into snakes and think this is all so easy is that many are in for a shock when they have a hard time selling them. Especially if they produce a lot of them. Some of the ads I see on the classifieds are so lousy I would not ever consider doing business with that person. Bottom line is the opportunity for everyone to get what they want out of this hobby is there for the taking, but to be succesful it takes work. Part of that work is making yourself known and showing people you are not going anywhere....the other part is having nice snakes and being prepared to care for them if they don't sell right away.

-----
TomsSnakes.com

Well stated!,....I can personally relate to every word you said!LOL.........I don't think I could have summed the snake "biz" up much better than that!......................Doug
-----
Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Bingo on all counts!

on all counts that is.

I know I got the best white walls available, even if they aren't brooks!
Todd Hughes

yes i agree its very sad and its happened over&over&over&over&over again you would think it would stop but sadly it seems it wont by my guesstimations piebald bps will be 100each eventually OUCH!!! talk about a sting!
ya know what ive learned is keep my genetics or cull them. releasing hets. to the breeder market is what kills a morphs value imho well that and lowballer spineless peddlers/brokers....yeah im a lil bitter! it would be very easy to build and maintain a breeders association to establish fair market prices "FMV" on snakes/morphs would obviously fluctuate year to year however within the same season is just nuts and to regulate that would benefit ALL breeders but then there will be the anklebiter types that wanna say free market!yadayada! yeah ok whatever, this breeder will hold firm with his prices, worst case i end up with ALOT of cool snakes,,,,,,,,,,thomas

Good thoughts there Thomas but the problem is many people are selfish and will do what they want regardless of what others think is right and worse off don't care about the people they sell to and the future of those peoples investments.
In other words if a few people have a lot of hets of something new, and some hold thier price while one dumps them off it will either be good for the rest who were patient as they may get the price they had in mind or they may sit on the hets for a long long time because no one wants to pay more than the other guy sold his for.
With the Specks Terry V and myself discussed things like this before I purchased my group. We'll discuss it again before this seasons babies come, and also consider the others who have breeders and the people who bought babies. This is not too common in the hobby, and I sincerely mean it when I say we are making an effort to be fair to everyone while this snake is not readily availble. If I produce some new variants of anything this year I will really think about who is wanting to get in on those projects and what type of person they are as far as the future of the snake. Prices always drop, and fair is fair, but sometimes things could have easily been delayed keeping more buyers happy with their purchases.
Tom Stevens
-----
TomsSnakes.com

price drop in the W/S Brooksi affecting other Brooksi morphs...??

byron.d

I don't forsee that at all. Matter of fact other brooks morphs that have been around a lot longer have been selling for more.

I think it all boils down to looks. The WS this year just did not look that great. What I would like to see is more hypo Whitesides and other new morphs.

The Brooks/Florida king is just to nice of a snake to be overlooked. Its robust size and ease of care puts at the top of best pet snakes to own. Now compare that to hondurans (which are spastic as babies) or Ball pthons ect. There is nothing as bullet proof as a florida king and has as many new morphs to the market. If you look at eastern kings they really don't offer anything new. Apalachicoloas only have the hyperythristic gene. NOW Florida kings and all the new reccessive traits makes these a good investment animal.

The apalachicolas 9goini) also have the amel gene. (Forgot about that one)...

Anyway. The Apalchicolas will need a little more breeding efforts to get that morph going. The Florida morphs are going to explode this year and next with many new double reccessive homzygous animals not seen yet.

I'm glad I chose the Florida King as my first breeding project! Their just normals (as far as I know) but they are just my favorite King snake. Can't wait to get a hold of a few morphs and start my own projects. Can't wait for eggs hopefully later this spring.

Are you referring to the gene that was crossed in from FL amels?

Tony,

There is a true strain of amel goini out there.

I have lavender goini X brooksi, but they are not pure. Check with NokturnalTom on the pure amel goini that is not crossed with anything and is directly from WC stock.

fake amel goini (lav brooks x goini)Stipp stock:

Fake amel goini(Gulf Coast stock):

there is also hypo goini out there in numbers. I suspect we will be seeing lots of these valiable this summer. This a double het goini x hypo brooksi (sorry I don't have any of the hypo version to show):

Man, those are nice! I have way too many goini right now, but I have to get me some of those. I'm not going to comment on the "pure" albino goini topic, but here's my ANERY goini X brooksi. I should produce a few more this year......at least I better.

Brandon Osborne

I don't mind if you have something negative to say about the Amels. Not everything seems to be panning out and we'll probably never get the input we need to solidify the history. We just have to take it at face value I suppose. I believe Chip, and those of us in the secret circle of amel goini knowers all discussed it for a long time before we got any. I am keeping mine, they actually bred already. Possible het female by amel male. Tom Stevens
-----
TomsSnakes.com

thanks bro!

Personally, I never bought into the WS brooksi as being "pure". The first year they were made public, they just didn't look right. On one of the pro's tables in Daytona, I actually had to do a double-take. I thought I had seen a WS black rat at first. With all the people that had been producing Lemke axanthics, more people should have suddenly popped out a WS. Lord knows, I've bred many Lemke axanthics back and forth without a single WS. Beautiful snakes.....but I don't buy it.

Brandon Osborne

Brandon,

I agree.

Brooksi are all really cool regardless of morph. They will most likely be my first foray into reptile breeding. I have a het hypo female because well, I like normals, and a male hypo, and well I like them too. I guess I like pretty much whatever snake I get or I would'nt have bought it in the first place. I'm the kind of person that will pay extra for something that looks better and is well started even if it takes me longer to actually get the money for it. I hope this pays out for me. Amel goini are cool too regardless. Just my .02
-----
-J.Hill

agree.