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What exactly is wrong with mixing specie

replover Mar 23, 2007 04:31 AM

Ok, I've made the mistake of not quarantining my new tortoise. I messed up. I deserve to be yelled at.

Everyone is yelling at me. However, only one person yelled at me for neglecting to quarantine, which I deserve. EVERY one else is yelling at me for mixing species.

I have since separated them by building an extra pen. I know this doesn't address the quarantine thing but the species are now separate.

I understand if you mix two torts species that have different needs for temperatures, diet, humidity etc. that that is really bad. However, I don't understand how mixing species that basically require the same environmental conditions is bad? Like I said, I have separated them ALREADY. But I want to know WHY? The people who've been screaming at me can't seem to tell me a reason, just bad bad bad...

Replies (24)

lepinsky Mar 23, 2007 04:38 AM

I know that some people out there disagree with this, but I have always heard that because most tortoise populations in the wild have evolved in isolation from other species, one species will typically carry pathogens that are harmless to its species, but can be lethal to another species. The following is from the Tortoise Trust website:
1) Many species are incompatible because of differing environmental needs. It goes without saying that the compromises one is forced to make when trying to satify the needs of, f.e. a Spurred tortoise from the arid subsaharan Africa and those of a Hingeback from the deep tropical forests of the western and central parts of the same continent, are doomed to condemn at least one, and most likely both tortoises to a slow death.

2) Maybe the most important factor that speaks against mixing different kinds of turtles and tortoises is the risk of cross infection. Chelonians naturally harbors many organisms that, while not posing any danger to the carrying animal, might be lethal to an individual of another species. This risk, according to some, is especially large when the species in question originate from different parts of the world, while the risk is said to diminish (but not disappear) if the animals in question are captive bred and raised.

3) The third reason not to mix different varieties of turtles or tortoises together is the risk of them harming eachother. The breeding behaviour in many species is quite rough, involving butting, biting and ramming, and while a female of the same species is 'built' for that particular type of rough handling, a female of another species is most likely not equipped to come out of such an ordeal unharmed.

Nina

replover Mar 23, 2007 05:24 AM

Ok, well if these bacteria exist, how far do the torts have to be apart? If I keep two different species, in different pens, but in the same room, some distance apart, is that ok?

lepinsky Mar 23, 2007 07:28 AM

Yes that would be fine, and they don't have to be kept some distance apart, as these organisms aren't airborne. Just make sure you wash your hands after handling one tort and before handling the other.

Nina

TonyC130 Mar 23, 2007 09:32 AM

I had a friend who had two Three Toed Box Turtles together with a juvenile Desert Tortoise for about 4 years with no problum.

EJ Mar 23, 2007 10:19 AM

Don't forget to remove all insects and be sure to wear gloves or use a good disinfectant when washing hands because while washing hands does deminish the risk it does not eliminate it.

The point here is how paranoid you would like to get?
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

aquick Mar 24, 2007 04:55 PM

Not just bacteria; but viruses and possibly helminths as well. Keep in mind most viruses (*most) don't "live" long in the environment outside of a host, so just a small degree of seperation is required. Parasites (helminths), however, can be quite persistent~so I would recommend a water proof seal between the two pens to prevent accidental introduction (seeing a vet and having stool examined for parasites regularly is also a good idea). As far as bacteria are concerned; just use common sense; don't handle one tort and then the other without washing hands, same with food and food preparation (keep in mind we can carry tort pathogens as well), and especially habitat maintanence. Another good reason to avoid mixing species (or individuals, for that matter) is identifying sick animals; for instance say you notice runny stool, and both torts look OK...which one is ill? However, with regular vet checks and adequetely similar environmental needs; two species can be successfully maintained together (for instance, yellow and red footed torts), and have been by hobbyists and zoos alike for many years--so this issue is mostly one of personal call, I prefer to let zoos, who have greater resources than myself, maintain mixed specie terraria. Good luck.
(PS....quarantine is very important, and you should have been reprimanded more for that than a mixed species terrarium )

DaviDC. Mar 23, 2007 09:54 AM

I've house Hermanns, Russians, & an Egyptian together at various times for the past 6 years with no apparent problems. They all eat the same, have roughly the same environmental requirements, & were all captive bred.

As of now, the largest male Russian is in a pen by himself because he's evil & mean & will attack anything that moves. The oldest Hermanns are in a separate pen together because I'm hoping for eggs one day. Two baby Russians, 2 young Hermanns, & the lone Egyptian live together in a large pen that's completely enclosed to keep out predators.

If any of these critters develop illnesses due to "cross infection" I'll be sure to report it here so I can receive a healthy dose of "I told you so" from the knowledgeable folks of this forum.
.

Image
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DeeCee

EJ Mar 23, 2007 10:05 AM

(why is this not marked hot topic? 5 hits in 1/2 hour I think qualifies as a hot topic)

The not mixing of species campaign was pretty much started by the anal retentive tortoise/animal keepers/control freaks.

I love this topic because some folks get seriously upset about it for no logical reason.

As I look out my back yard there has to be 25 different species of animals living together. I've got a board in the yard that I look under every day. I've found 3 species of snakes, 2 species of lizards and 2 species of salamander. The most I found at one time was 3 species of snake and one species of salamander at the same time.

I can go on about this but the point is there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with mixing species.

Now, it becomes more difficult the more you add varying factors such as adding different species(the basic factor), WC vs.CB and different husbandry requirements. Those are the biggies.

Each time you mess with one of those factors it decreases your chances of success unless you address each factor for each animal.

The bottom line is that you can successfully mix species depending on how careful you are and how much experience you have with each species
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

PHRatz Mar 23, 2007 09:13 PM

>>(why is this not marked hot topic? 5 hits in 1/2 hour I think qualifies as a hot topic)

I agree!

Why not mix species.. people have stated a lot of good reasons for not doing it.
I don't mix certain species because they might eat each other. Extremely different species can be toxic to one another. Different housing needs were mentioned, you wouldn't mix say a poison dart frog with a bearded dragon.. that's not going to work to say the least.
I have the close to 70lb sulcata, she has to mix with the dog, no other choice because we only have one big yard for them but the dog is 60lbs lighter than the tort & live indoors. They aren't together full time but they do have to get along.

Quarantine is a different issue, I would & do quarantine any pets that are new here.
There are times when my sulcata meets up with a box turtle & there are wild lizards & snakes that get into my yard so I know she's met up with them. There are wild birds she has to contend with daily.. can't do anything about the wild birds.

The tort & turtles are parasite tested every year at least once if not more times, so if one were to show up positive that one would be isolated from everyone else.
Other than that I am not going to mix my species & that's my choice. I can't control what other people do, it's up to them but I think you have to be aware of how dangerous one species might be to the other & take it from there.
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PHRatz

Boxielover Mar 24, 2007 11:19 PM

I saw a ball python with a Egyptian mating pair.

Also Burmese mt. tortoise with Egyptian tortoise, and hermans tortoise in the back yard.

All seem well...

Also seen a guys closet with snakes,lizards, and a few tortoise all living together. Not sure how they are doing now, but the redfooted tortoise had RI last he said, The iguana was whipping at a few.. was interesting...

I personally think if you have room separate species. It's best that way. We do want to imitate how they live in the wild.

emysbreeder Mar 25, 2007 11:13 PM

You could just breed one species.dont worry,be happy.One might say in the BIG picture,all the animals on earth are mixed together.From a space travelers eye view.Hay EJ good one on the herps under the board.I collected for decades and saw every combo along with mamals too.Maybe some Margenated owners should tell us what could happen with them in the mix.Or two male Mt.Torts together,BIG gulars rull! If you worry a lot you might want to skip that cute little pet racoon mixed with your tortoises!vic

steffke Mar 23, 2007 11:19 AM

My ornate boxie has lived in the same enclosure as my bell's hingedback tort. The vet says they are both healthy so I' don't believe they are dieing slowly.

DaviDC. Mar 23, 2007 12:13 PM

I suspect that more people do it than would ever admit due to the psychotic responses this topic usually generates from so many people. I think most of those folks have no actual experience mixing species, they just repeat what they've read or heard. Has anyone actually had a tortoise die due to cross infection? If so, I've never read about it on this forum.

Years ago when I started keeping tortoises, I lived in an urban apartment & space was my main issue. The hermann & Russian were already living together & I debated long & hard over whether to put the tiny 2 month old Egyptian in the same pen. I'm very glad I did because he went from being a lump that did nothing & ate very little to an active tortoise who has grown up just fine & has always been able to hold his own among the larger tortoises. Often times I had to separate him at feeding time to be sure he got his fair share, but that's the ONLY problem I've had with mixing species. EJ was the voice of reason when I made this decision. He's a very wise man.

By the way, my yearling redfoot stays in a pen all by itself & never encounters the other tortoises because its environmental requirements are so vastly different from the testudos.

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DeeCee

drtom Mar 23, 2007 12:17 PM

I agree with everything you and EJ write and I would even take it a step further. I let my redfoots and leopards meet and mingle on the floor everyday. No problems. Even when I put them outside. I have no control of the weather so they share a pen. If I am going to hose the pen down I take out the leopards and the redfoots and emys love it.
Tom

EJ Mar 23, 2007 12:22 PM

Dave,

You probably would think I'm the last person you'd see admit to this but I've lost more tortoises than I'll like to recall due to cross infection.

Now, I don't know for sure but I highly suspect this was the case.

Unfortunately the worse case in my group was among the same species... my leopards. I brought in an adoption (it was quarentened for 2 months which is actually longer than what I normally do) It took over a year for the disease to manifest itself in the group and another year to actually start killing off animals.

It is because of my failures that I can say with relative confidence what the limits are.

It does happen but I don't think it has anything to do with the pathogen or species combined to put it in simple terms. This is, again, one of those very complex scenarios and there is not a simple answer... actually there is... don't do it.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

tglazie Mar 24, 2007 07:10 PM

Mixing species is something to avoid. Take it from me. I once owned five juvenile sulcatas that all lived together in a single species group. In 1998, I got my first leopard tortoise, a three pound wild caught female. I had her quarantined for all of the spring, summer and fall, just to be sure. I then introduced her to her new winter quarters, which she shared with the sulcatas. Though I'd read that mixing species was a bad idea, I figured these animals inhabited a similar environment and had similar dietary needs. Besides that, she was always very shy, so I figured the competition might loosen her up a bit.

I was wrong. Within one week, all five of my juveniles were showing symptoms of respiratory distress. The leopard was fine, and by the second week, she was the only one eating. I spent over eight hundred dollars in vet bills only to lose every one of my sulcatas. The vet took blood, stool, and saliva samples from all of my animals, and discovered that they were all carrying a gram-negative bacteria to which the leopard was apparently immune. Sure enough, leopards were not afflicted by this disease, as I introduced two more animals, a male and a female, the year following with no problems.

I've also had a friend who had lost his two Indian Star tortoises when he decided to keep them in the same winter quarters as his leopard tortoises (and his were captive bred leopard tortoises!).

The Mediterranean Testudo complex seems to be more resistant to disease, and I have never kept Egyptians, so i couldn't say for them. I own marginateds and Turkish black greeks. I personally keep them separate as well, though, as the males do have a tendency to harrass the females regardless of species, and nothing good can come of such stress. The males are also quite vicious toward eachother, to the extent that I have to keep them separated from everyone (I've caught my oldest Greek male chasing hatchlings of his own lineage when I introduced them; he will even tackle my wife's ceramic turtles if I put them in his pen!). I also used to keep russians, and I've found that once acclimated and disease free, they can usually be temporarily mixed with other Testudo with no problems. Permanent mixing is not best, though, given the aggression factor. Another curious topic is corprophagy, or the tendency by tortoises to eat feces. All tortoises engage in hindgut digestion (whereby microbes break down the ingested food, as opposed to stomach acids and bile in humans). These microbes are different for every tortoise, and field herpetologists have hypothesized that many tortoises enrich their gut flora by consuming such things. However, I think it safe to say that most tortoises in the wild would not be consuming dog, cat, oppossum, rat, or other such animal feces, and as dog feces tend to be relatively parasitized, this may not be the best thing in the world for the tortoise to be eating. How is one to control this if a dog shares the yard?

Certainly, it is no surprise that people have successfully kept different species from different environments together, but this is best avoided, in my opinion. Certain animals demonstrate apparent immunity, and I can't explain this. However, in general, tortoises are solitary animals that need a spacious, stress-free environment. Certainly, wild animals will come into contact with tortoises kept outdoors. The ramifications of this cannot be readily measured, so I could not say that this does no harm. No one is a stranger to the problems posed by ferral goats, cats, pigs, rats, and insects that were introduced to the Galapagos by ignorant nineteenth century sailors. Arizona, California, and Nevada all have laws against releasing captive reptiles into the wild for this very same reason. Though I'm far from expert on the subject, there is a clinical basis upon which the tortoise trust and other organizations have grounded their conclusions. So, play it safe. Quarantine, don't overcrowd, and don't mix species.

T.G.

lepinsky Mar 25, 2007 05:12 AM

Excellent response, T.G. The voice of reason!

PHRatz Mar 25, 2007 10:01 AM

Thank you TG for sharing your very important story.
Some people mix their species & always will, I won't argue it because I've found it's useless to do so.
Personally I won't mix my species because if there's even the smallest chance that it could lead to the death of one of my pets for any reason, spread of disease, aggression between species, toxins, anything at all, then it's just not happening.
My sulcata bumps into other animals at times but she's not housed with them.
The dog sees and at times interacts with all the animals here but he's not allowed to put his mouth on them.
Sorry disease happened to your pets.
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PHRatz

Jeffco Mar 25, 2007 01:18 AM

I guess this is as good of a place as any to pose this question. My Girlfriends parents have two Legally acquired (Gifted captive bred babies 17 years ago) Desert Tortises living in there back yard in Phoenix. I have recently been offered a 13 year old sulcata. Would it be a terrible idea to put this in the back yard with the deserts? The sulcata has lived in an indoor enclosure its whole life. It would have its own "den" built but would have to share the yard with the deserts. they have a burrow that they spend a lot of time in. Her parents are very interested in the sulcata but if it poses any threats to the deserts definitely do not want it. Thanks for any input.

PHRatz Mar 25, 2007 09:11 AM

The N. American "gopher" tortoises are known to carry a Mycoplasma pathogen (I forget which species of myco the tortoises carry)which is suspected to be a part of the reason why they are a threatened species.
I'd be afraid that the destert torts would pose a threat to the sulcata.
Most of the info you'll find on them suggests they should be housed with no other species because of that disease. You could have a vet run an ELISA test to find out if it can be detected in the desert tortoises.
There are many strains of the Mycoplasma bacteria, none of them are curable.
Being a tortoise/turtle and rat keeper.. I can tell you with rats who carry the strain Mycoplasma pulmonis it's a life long battle, with the use of many different antibiotics that can control it for some of their lives but it always ends in their death by severe pneumonia.
Because of my rat experience with the disease, I wouldn't wish it on any species.

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PHRatz

tglazie Mar 26, 2007 01:58 AM

PHRatz is right. These tortoises are endangered, and it is not worth gambling away their safety. It would also be inadvisable to mix the two on the basis of size difference. Sulcatas are big rough and tumble guys; deserts are no pushovers either. Aggression between the two is a possibility that should not be discounted.

My general advice to most tortoise keepers is to keep only one species, lest they feel themselves to be the dedicated type (I keep four different species, two different breeding groups, and it is a fulltime job). See if you qualify as a candidate for adoption of another desert tortoise. Perhaps you can start a breeding trio. Nothing is more satisfying than seeing a hatchling take it's first steps from the egg.

T.G.

Jeffco Mar 28, 2007 09:35 PM

Thanks a lot for the responses guys. We definitely do not want to risk the health of either species, and though it is a tempting offer, it is definitely not worth the risk.

PHRatz Mar 29, 2007 10:21 AM

Risk that's the part I don't like either.
3 years or so ago I got my hands on a TX gopher tortoise... but because of the history of them carrying the disease I did not apply for the permit to keep him.
I wanted to but I just could not risk having him here.
He'd been stolen out of his natural habitat.. I know that because they do not live naturally in this part of the state. How he ended up on a kid's driveway I don't know.
I figure either the person who took him lost him or found out it was illegal to have him & then just let him go.

He was very wild, I took him to the game warden who made sure he was taken to a protected state park that is in his natural habitat.
He was sooo cool, I so wanted to keep him. I know I could have qualified for the permit because the captain at the game warden's office told me I could & that I should apply but I could not risk the health of my sulcata & my box turtles.
::::sigh::::

Mick Jagger was right.. you can't always get what you want.
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PHRatz

tglazie Mar 30, 2007 12:00 PM

That's too bad about the Texas Tortoise. I live in South Texas, and though I used to see those guys all the time, the last one I saw was five years ago and it was dead in the road. No lies about it, they are disappearing. I wish I had the facilities to keep a small group. Breeding them would be the ultimate dream; and the biggest plus is that the weather here is perfect for them!

T.G.

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