Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If you have seen definite copulation once and on the next introduction see both snakes showing no interest in each other do you think it means the female took and is fertilized? In many instances I do. I still keep putting the male in but if nothing happens I don't sweat it. How about you? Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I would imagine a horny male would bother an already fertized female to the point of exhaustion. At least some of my males could care less. They will hump a rope.

With so many instances of sperm retention possible over a couple of years it would seem pretty easy for successful fertilization from a single copulation. I don’t think a male hooks up without successfully completing the mission at hand. If they go, they must be ready to make some babies.

I think multiple breeding is something we do for insurance, or to satisfy ourselves that we’ve given them every opportunity to produce for us. I leave them together during “prime time” and sometimes have no clue if they are doing it again or not...

I don’t know anything about the follicle development, and if more sperm means more follicles develop into fertilized eggs (bigger clutch) or if in only one breeding maybe only a few eggs get fertilized and it results in fewer fertile and more slugs? Do they produce exactly the same number of follicles as the number of eggs you get? Do they reabsorb unfertilized follicles, or hold them back for the next clutch? I don’t know all that biology of it. I’ll bet a lot of successful breeders don’t know that much about how it works either.

>>>I don’t know anything about the follicle development, and if more sperm means more follicles develop into fertilized eggs (bigger clutch) or if in only one breeding maybe only a few eggs get fertilized and it results in fewer fertile and more slugs? Do they produce exactly the same number of follicles as the number of eggs you get? Do they reabsorb unfertilized follicles, or hold them back for the next clutch? I don’t know all that biology of it. I’ll bet a lot of successful breeders don’t know that much about how it works either.

I guarantee that IS the case(nobody knowing)!!LOL, because to say that you did know ALL ABOUT IT, would mean you spent decades with many test subjects(control subjects), disecting(killing) many snakes of each sex, doing sperm counts, counting follicles, surgery, necropsys, many x-rays, etc...... to know would indeed be IMPOSSIBLE(catch 22), because you would theoretically have to keep opening them up for positive proof!LOL(x-rays could help with follicle/egg exams. though).
This is all WAY beyond most peoples capabilities(to say the least!LOL.............so as you stated, anyone sayin' they know all about what goes on inside a snake, is just "blowin' smoke"!
All we "herpers" can really do, is just keep throwin' them together and hope for the best!, no matter how much we'd like to think we "know"!,...there are just too many variables.
Doug

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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Or you could read and learn from other peoples experiences.

I personally have dissected a few snakes, x-rayed a few snakes, palpated a few snakes, and bread a few snakes. But I have also learned from the people who HAVE ALREADY spent decades doing all of the above things you mentioned.

So if you want to "just keep throwin em together and hoping for the best" then be my guest. But personally I think I will stick to learning as much biology as possible, and maybe actually advance the hobby of herpetoculture.

Relax!,..............my post meant that there is much to learn. I'm not new to this "game".
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

I hope I didnt embarass myself, ah actually I never care about that...
As far as the "biology" I mentioned, you summed it up perfectly- I have never dissected or x-rayed a snake. I guess I do just sort of throw them together. I've got the whole cycling thing down, cooling, sheds and all the required basics on the process. I admit, as I did, to being ignorant of most of the actual biology involved. Sometimes these are things you read about if and when you actually have a problem. If someone posts that using more than one male makes for eighteen egg clutches, and using one male makes eight egg clutches, well then I might read some on that. But I guess just throwing them together works well enough for me, anyways. I was hoping your post would cover a bit about ovum and all that, I'd read it and probably thank you for it too. I would ask if your research and dissecting snakes actually resulted in you being better able to answer the question posed by Nokturnel Tom.

beautiful animal you have there... I love orange... lol

I find that there is a period when a females behavior around a male can tell you when she is most optimally receptive. I let them breed as many times as they want (usually a 3-7 day period) until I she that she is refusing him.

Also, while many people remove hides, or even substrate during breeding to SEE what is going on, I don't do this because I see no reason to stress my snakes like this and I think it might actually negatively influence breeding. I think a lack of hides promotes breeding at inopportune times for the female because she cant escape the male. The vast majority of my breedings take place out of sight underneath the hides. So most of the time I don't observe any copulation. If I don't see any snakes, thats good, it means they are coiled up breeding somewhere. After a few days when I hear a commotion and the females comes blasting out of the hide shaking her tail with the male in hot persuit, I know she is done and I separate them.

I do remove everything from the cage for about an hour after introducing them, just in case there is I fight, I need to be able to see whats going on. But after that, it goes back to the cage as usual.

I don't have any extremely high value males that I am trying to rotate through as many females as humanly possible, so this system works for me. Most of my males will visit 3-4 females this way. You can also pull your females from brumation at staggered times a few weeks apart. This way not all of them will be ovulating at the exact same time and you can get your males around to more of them.

All of my males will actively try to breed any female at any time between february and june/july, so I don't take their behavior as a sign of anything.

There is a pair of cal kings that are actively copulating under the clay pot in the center of this cage.

I think Tom is correct in that most times the female will get "up tight" and would rather flee the male, once successfully fertilized. As to exactly what triggers this response in the female, I don't really know. No doubt there is a chemical cue within her that motivates her to do this.
It' funny how female Chameleons from what I understand, soon change color when successfully fertilized to signal to other males that she doesn't want to be messed with!

Animals sometimes do strange things that we see(or more importantly don't see).
Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Tom, I put all of my pairs together a few times & they usually lock successfully two or three times, then my females start to run. But, really as long as i see them locked up one time i am comfortable that she is ferilized.

The follow up pairings are really just for good measure.

~ Mike Russo

I think it only takes one.
However, I would not be surprised if multiple encounters reduces the number of slugs.

I also wouldn't be surprised if males don't ejaculate every time they lock up.

-=-

I remove hides and water dish in case I need to get in there quick and break up a feeding response, last thing I want to do is have to dance around cage furniture or spill the water dish.

My males don't seem to care about being exposed. They smell that female and that's all they care about.

I do leave the aspen though.
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3.6 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata