Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello Folks -- I would like to hear some voices of experience regarding an exceptional L.p. knoblochi (two years old) who has come down with an upper respiratory infection and possible mouth rot. I have been keeping snakes for many years and this is the first time I have had to deal with this situation. It's especially upsetting because I have always practiced good husbandry - stressing cleanliness, clean water, nutritious food items, and proper temperatures in low stress environments.

The animal was cooled, as usual, and brought up from the basement about three weeks ago along with another Lpk, a Lpp, and some L.m. thayeri. They have all been on belly heat with temps at the warm end around 85 F. He looked great at first and has eaten about 5-6 hoppers so far, but when I went to feed him last night I noticed his mouth was not closing all the way on one side and that he made occasional "clicking" sounds when he breathes. Closer inspection revealed swelling along a row of teeth in his lower jaw. Although I could not see any cheesy stuff or discoloration, I subsequently (and gently) pried his mouth open and applied a little 3% hydrogen peroxide to his teeth with a cotton swab. Occasionally he will "yawn" and also snort, so I am pretty sure that he has an upper respiratory infection. He was housed alone, and no other snakes seem to have any symptoms - thank goodness

I put him in a small aquarium with an undertank heating pad, and also put a basking lamp on top to increase the ambient temperatures in the tank. He has an large shallow bowl of clean water and access to hides at the warmer and cooler end of the aquarium. Right now he seems uncomfortable, cruising around the cage and rubbing the sides of his mouth against the glass.

So, am I doing all right things at this point? This is a calm, beautiful snake and valuable potential breeder, so I really want to give him the best chance of recovery. All advice is welcome -- I'd especially like to hear if any folks have had experience treating and curing snakes with symptoms like mine has.

THANKS!

Tom

Neither of the things you describe are contagious so you don't have to worry about your other snakes. Coming out of brumation is a stressful time for snakes and every once in a while they just get sick, don't beat yourself up about it.

Your doing all the right things, keep him extra warm and reasonably dry. Without any visible cheesiness or blackness, I would be surprised if he actually has mouth rot, it is probably related to the RI. If you want to be cautious you should see a vet for antibiotics, but I have a feeling that with proper supportive care he will be fine.

Like Zach stated, you are doing all the right things, and when caught early enough, it can usually be combated by the snakes own "auto-immune system. It could benefit from a "herp-friendly" antibiotic such as Amikacin, or Batryl if you can get some, but hopefully it will do okay. At this point, as you well know, if it shows any signs of decline, I would immediately seek a good "herp vet", or at the very least get some antibiotics as previously mentioned.
Hopefully, from what you describe, it doesn't have real classic signs of "Infectious Stomatitis"(mouth rot), but if it does, the hyd.peroxide has worked extremely well for me(sometimes in conjunction with Betadine).
I was given a Boa(B.c.imperator) many years ago that actually had small "carion-fly" maggots crawling out of it's mouth and nostrils!!.....it was VERY serious,...I dug out little by little all the "cheesy" tissue even all the way through the roof of the mouth!.......with several treatments a day, this awesome Anery. female Boa made a full recovery, and it was hardly noticable at all after many weeks......That was an extreme case for sure, so you know less advanced cases are totally curable if just given some steady attention.
Hope it pulls through to a full recovery!.................Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Thanks for the encouragement, Zach. I'm keeping close tabs on the snake and will get him to a good herp vet if he looks any worse in a day or two. Below is a picture of him soon after I got him as a hatchling. His colors are still that bright and he has 87 triads - one of my prettiest animals . . .

I've dealt with RIs before, and I can tell you that one of the worst things you can do is follow what online sources tell you to do. Most caresheets seem to gloss over how to deal with RIs.

Contrary to popular belief, RIs -are- contagious. This is how I ended up losing a lot of Kenyan sand boas. The infection spreads from one snake to another when they're housed together, but you should still keep this snake carefully quarantined from your other animals. What my vet told me is that the infection is viral, meaning that it can possibly be airborne and that traditional antibiotics are ineffective. (She also told me my last remaining baby Kenyan was screwed, but I managed to get her healthy again on my own.)

The best way to help your snake is to keep the cage extra warm and humid. The humidity is VERY important. When you're congested, have you ever noticed how much easier it is to breathe when you're in the shower? It's the same thing, except it's vital for snakes because they only have one functional lung. If you keep the cage dry, then that will make it harder for your snake to breathe because all of the mucous dries up all in the mouth and trachea. Secondly, the hydration is a great way to encourage your snake's appetite. I bump up the humidity by throwing in wads of damp paper towel and frequently misting the warm side of the cage.

Your snake will probably not eat for awhile, which isn't too much of a problem if he's not a baby. You should still offer your snake a meal every once in awhile. With snakes that have RIs, it sometimes takes a little coaxing and holding the mouse right up against the snake's mouth for a few minutes to convince it to eat. Don't try to force-feed though. The stress is too much for a sick snake. If you can get your snake to eat, then it has a good chance of recovery--but that's only if you continue to keep the cage humid even after the snake seems better. This is another important point. A snake that seems out of the woods isn't necessarily healthy enough to go without the humidity just yet.

Don't let the cage get humid and cold though; that's actually how colubrids seem to develop RIs. It happens if a little water is spilled and forces your snake to stay on cold, wet substrate for more than a day or two. Dryness is a preventative for RIs, but it's also a death sentence if your snake has already developed an RI.

So in summation, make the warm side warmer (100 degrees F), make it humid, keep it constantly humid, and don't stress your snake out. Treating the mouth with hydrogen peroxide probably isn't necessary because the misshapen mouth is most likely due to the mucous. Once the cage is kept humid, the mucous should soften up enough for the snake to wipe it off his mouth just from crawling around the paper towels.

Anyway, I hope that helps. This is my written from my own personal experience. Good luck!
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

That's pretty strait advise, well said.....it sometimes seems futile in many cases. Sometimes I feel like a "broken record", repeating the same things time, and time again on several other forums as well regarding infections, and the ALL-FAMOUS "regurge syndrome"!., and let's not forget the famous "problem shedding"
Many times people will be willing to read about the car, motorcycle, stereo, or sports they're involved with, but many seem to fail at learning just a few basic husbandry issues that would keep their animals from falling ill. It just doesn't make good sense to me.
Doug

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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Viral RIs are extremely rare. While I feel sorry that you had to deal with that type of horrific outbreak that makes you feel helpless, it is highly unlikely that is what is going on here.

I used to work in the reptile retail business. I worked with fresh imports when the animals were at their most stressed. It was my job to ensure that any animals that arrived unhealthy, were healthy before they left again. I have dealt with literally hundreds, if not thousands of upper respiratory infections. It is extremely rare to loose an otherwise reasonably healthy snake from one. I also have never seen any evidence of contageousness despite housing many snakes in close proximity.

The vast majority of RIs are bacterial and they are usually caused by bacteria that normally live in the snake. The reason that they are not contagious is that the other animals are already infected, but their imune system can handle it just fine. ALl of us live with mildly pathogenic bacteria within us, but sometimes during stress, or when our immunity is weakened (like when heated homes in winter dry out our mucosal membranes) we, and our snakes get sick from the bacteria that was their all along.

This poster is right about the heat. a basking spot of 100 degrees or more will help boost your snakes metabolism and thus his immunity. If he is eating, feed the heck out of him, use vitamin suppliments. The reason that you do NOT want humidity is because it encourages bacterial growth. The dry warm cage will help to dry the mucous, which can literally drown them otherwise.

And besides, if it is viral, there is nothing that he or a vet can do anyways.

I say that RIs ARE contagious. I had a healthy group of Kenyan sand boas that I gave to my friend whose colony was recovering from an outbreak. Neither of us thought it would be a problem because we didn't think RIs were contagious. But it was only a matter of weeks before my healthy group of Kenyans contracted the infection simply by being housed in the same cage as the survivors, despite the cage conditions being perfect the entire time.

I still stand by my opinion that humidity is key to getting the snake back on track. I've lost many snakes by keeping the cage too dry, the simple reason being that snakes can't breathe when their respiratory system is clogged up by dry mucous. But I have been able to save snakes by offering humidity. Actually every snake that I've done it on has recovered from the infection.

The amount of humidity that's required obviously depends on the severity of the infection. If the snake is simply making a few clicking or wheezing noises, just having a big water bowl in the cage might be enough. But if the snake clearly has discharge coming from the mouth on top of the clicking or wheezing, then I would turn the cage into a sauna.

The only way to clear the mucous out of their system is by letting it soften up so it can get flushed out. If it dries in place, where is it supposed to go? It just stays crusty around the mouth, causing more irritation for the snake because it can't shut its mouth properly. When you've got a cold, how would it feel if all of the snot dried up so you couldn't blow your nose?

I bet if the original poster were to throw in a humid hide on the warm side of the cage, his snake will quit pacing around uncomfortably and spend all of his time in the humid hide. I've noticed that when the moisture starts to dry out in the cage, infected snakes will squeeze into the last corner that still has condensation.

And Zach, I'm not intimidated by whatever kind of impressive background you claim to have. I've seen you write about health issues before over the past few years.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

You know, I really don't care if you are intimidated by me or not. I don't know why you would be, but that is not why I sight my experience.

Now I'll tell you some more about my experience. I have swabbed snakes mouths that presented with URIs and sent them in to the lab for culture. They come back with numerous types of cell cultures, the vet provides antibiotics and the snake gets better. But I have also swabbed healthy snakes mouths and sent them in for testing. Guess what? They grew all of the same types of bacteria! Weird don't you think? A healthy snake and a sick snake both with the same normal mucus flora. huh, I wonder what that means.

If your snakes were even diagnosed properly, which is difficult because you can't really test for the presence of a virus, what your snakes had was not a respiratory infection. It was a systemic viral infection that manifested with respiratory symptoms. This is highly unusual, and again, I'm sorry for the losses you must have had. It is also impossible to just appear out of no where. Snake viruses don't just float around most peoples homes. Since this guy didn't mention any new snakes and its the wrong season for new purchases, I will make the assumption that the BACTERIA that caused his infection were already there.

But hey what do I know, I am just an aspiring vet student... clearly not as knowledgeable as someone smart enough to move their collection in with someone who was recovering from an epidemic of disease.

As far as the humidity, we are both right... or no...we are both wrong... I don't know.

It is still up for debate. Some say keeping em dry decreases bacterial growth and drys out the lungs so that the congestion doesn't kill them. Others say that humidity allows them to expel the mucous. Personally, especially with desert species, I have always went with dry and it has always worked out for me.

Vet student huh... I certainly hope you're thinking about specializing... it'd be nice to be able to find a vet that knew what they were talkin about with reptiles...
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exotics and reptiles is all I want to do man.

Growing up I was so disgusted with that lack of decent care for my pets and the animals I worked with... I just couldn't take it.

Hopefully I get in, I'm still waiting on a few applications :O

best of luck to you... I wanted to be a Vet growin up, but now I think being an attorney would suit me more... I love to argue... lol... and besides, hopefully I'll make enough money to "buy" my own Vet/caretaker for my collection...
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Zach,
Don't worry about this bowwow chick. She comes on here every so often with a large chip on her shoulder. Not worth answering her posts because she already knows everything.

yeah, I'll agree with that... seems like everytime she posts on here, its just to try and piss someone off... Oh well... some people are always tryin to cause drama...