Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hello to everyone, i am a new member here. I have been reading a lot of posts but i cant seem to find the answer to my problem. My Uro sleeps like 2 days straight then gets up and plays normal and eats great on the third day. The cycle repeats itself over and over again. The strange thing is that she appears perfectly normal on the third day. i was thinking it could be a humidity problem because i have a constant 60 % humidity. But any input would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

I am sure we can offer some suggestions! However, we need some info from you. What size enclosure is your uro in? What are the hot side and cool side temps? How many hides does the uro have? How old is it? How long have you had it? (They often naturally slow down in the winter) What do you feed it? How often?

That will help us help you!! Welcome to the forum! Ask many questions, there are some very knowledgeable people wandering around here!

Elizabeth
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
Madison, Wisconsin

Kong lives in a 40 gallon tank. the colder side is 80 degrees and the warmer side is around 110 usually. im sorry i dont know how to answer you question about her hides because im not sure if that has something to do with her skin or places to hide, however she has about 5 places to hide if that helps.Ive raised her ever since she was 6 monthes old. she is now 2 years old. I have always feed her lettuce, but recently i have started feeding her kale and collard greens. I KNOW, I KNOW im not supposed to feed her alot of lettuce, but im new to the forums and im learning how to care for her more. But hopefully that helps. O and i should mention it looks like she has a little blood under her chin. What is this?

First I love the name.Maybe you can sacrifice a maiden...just kidding. OK:
first raise the temps to at least 120 basking and 85-90 cool side
See deer fern farms caresheet for foods
Get a megaray or T-rex uvb (for the hot side,and you will need a basking spot bulb to raise the temps under the uvb bulb)
I imagine that 40 gallon is too small
six hides is a bit excessive esp. in a 40 gallon
He/she is probably banging into the walls(the blood)unless you peeled off a shed(never do this)
I recently converted a 40 gallon:
duct tape one side wall and carefully smash out the window
replace glass with melamine or wood
cut a hole and attach a "nesting box" like deer fern farms has in their vision cages
use peat,soil, or clay slightly damp in the box
use a dry substrate in the cage
make sure the box is not too cool,let the cage be hotter with less of a cool side.
get Kong's poo tested for parasites and treat accordingly
KONG HAPPY!
this is not written in stone but I think it will work-good luck-Long Live Kong!

Forgot to mention:
if you do convert the glass aquarium,use All Glass aquarium sealant(non toxic, and works much better than Home Depot type sealants)
you can put a human grade heating pad (small) on low ON TOP of the nesting box to keep it warm.
*Human grade is safer and they can dig down away from the heat.You can also put towels in between the pad and the box to "lower" the heat if necessary.
The nesting box can be any size or depth.

Hey there! I haven't seen you on here before, though I don't get as much time to visit as I used to. Could you introduce/reintroduce yourself? What sort of Uro do you have? How long have you had it? Your conversion of the 40 gallon tank is really creative, I wouldn't have thought of doing that!

Nice to meat you!!

Elizabeth
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
Madison, Wisconsin

Reading your post "Lessons learned-Habitat design" actually sparked the idea! I wanted to incorporate digging without raising the humidity, you mentioned microhabitats, and there you have it. I believe "brainstorming" is the proper term. My male Egyptian resembles yours when he was young.Funny observations- when mine "goes to the bathroom" he lifts himself high on all fours and then kicks to cover his business like a cat!Does yours? Mine stands on his hind legs,balances on his tail and JUMPS! He hears my shoes and knows I'm coming. HE IS A TRIP! He bobs his head and flirts with the female since I got them.He's only about a year old. They are caged separately as the female seems to like him but I think he gets on her nerves.
I saw her bite his tail a couple of times, so that's it. I have already learned(the hard way)hell hath no fury like a female uro. But they can see each other and the female is always looking for him.(why I don't really know) I could go on and on...anyway..glad to be here! Thanks Perdue!

Ok, first let me say, recognizing that there are husbandry problems is the first step tp correcting them, and frankly is a place many Uro owners never get, so Good Job! question question question. I will also say, I had a similar situation with my first Uro, and the first 2 years I had him he lived in much too cool of temps, and ate dethawed frozen veggies, and lived on crushed walnut substrate, because that is what the pet store had told me. Thank goodness I eventually found this forum!! Now that was a decade ago, and I am still constantly improving my husbandry! (different Uro though )

Ok, now onto things that I think will make dear Kong a MUCH happier camper.

***1) You need to take Kong, and a fresh fecal sample to a knowledgeable herp vet, preferably with Uro experience. This is to check out the blood on her chin (not normal!), check her for parasites, and check on her body weight etc. Due to her diet she may have issues only a vet can identify, and better to know sooner than later!

2) She is most likely suffering fairly major malnutrition at this point, as well as possibly a Vit D defficiency. Luckily, you can fix this! Read lots of care sheets, but you can start with Doug Dix's ( http://www.deerfernfarms.com/Uromastyx_Care.htm ) it is the same one that Knoldg recommended. You do want to stop feeding her Kale right away. It will actually keep important minerals from her body. Bok (Pok) Choy, dandelion greens, turnip greens, mustard greens and some collard greens are all ok. Variety is important! (some people do not think that mustard and collard greens are very good for them, once you get her eating good greens you should look into this and make your own decision ) You should also add a vitamin and mineral supplement, as well as a calcium supplement (they are separate). I use Herpevite, and the corresponding calcium supplement.

3) a 40 gallon breeder tank is, in my opinion, the minimally acceptable size to keep a smaller adult Uro in. (ie Mali, Saharan, etc, - basically NOT Egyptians) You can make it good for her, and just keep in the back of your brain that if the opportunity arises, she would appreciate more space. However, since it is not a huge space, you want to be careful not to clutter it up with too many places to hide (when people ask about "hides" they are referring to little caves she can go to feel safe and protected). She should have one on the cool side, and one on the hot side, and maybe one more, but be careful of so many she doesn't have room to run around. What type of substrate are you using? (substrate is what you have on the bottom of the tank. ie newspaper, sand, calci-sand, dirt, etc)

4) I think your tank temps are a little low, try raising them and she will probably be more active. Make sure she has a basking spot that gets up to 120-140. Also, if you don't already, I strongly recommend you get her a UVB bulb. This will help her metabolize all the new, yummy food you will be feeding her. A nice benefit for you is that the UVB lights often bring out the Uro's colors and markings as well.

I know this post is long, and it seems like a lot of things to address, but Kong will thank you for it!! I cannot stress enough finding a good vet and setting up an appointment though. I do this yearly with my Uro, they need check ups just like cats, dogs, and People! In this case you really want to make sure she doesn't have a calcium deficiency or parasites.

If any of this doesn't make sense, or you think of new questions please ask! There are a lot of people on here that are VERY knowledgeable. Uro husbandry is not always an exact science, so there are often discussions regarding best practices, as you get to know more about Kong, and uros in general, you will be able to make up your mind on these topics as well!

Have a lovely day, and give Kong a nice treat from us. (a very small, skinned, SLIVER of granny smith apple is a favorite treat of my uro )

Elizabeth

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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
Madison, Wisconsin

I agree with what everyone said on this post. Its advisible that you take your uro to a reptile oriented/quallified verterinarian and get it tested for parasites (nematodes, coccidia, etc.) Its woth every dime, for the sake of your animal!

However, from what your saying, it sounds like he/she is eating fine every 3rd day? if she had a serious pasrisital problem...eating wouldn't be like you mentioned. However its still a good idea to get her checked out!!

I agree with what was just recently posted about your temps possibly being the issue, but with respect, I feel that "She should have one on the cool side, and one on the hot side, and maybe one more, but be careful of so many she doesn't have room to run around." Is alittle bit on the plain side, and can be confusing for novice keepers as far as proper and ideal temps go.

So many times, I have seen this happen in the reptile oriented store that I currently work at and I have even observed it on the forums. When you say one cool side and one hot side, right away the reader is going to say "ok so i need two temperatures and I'm all set to go, as long at my basking is 120-130 and one side reads 80 and the other 90, so i'm ok." This can be misleading because in order for the uromastyx to proporly thrive, the animal should be offered a WIDE range of temperature gradients also known as thermal gradients. Not just a warm and cool side. This cannot be acheieved in using a cage on the small side. In a large cage with many temperature oppertunities, the uromastyx can roam free choosing where he wants to bask, hide, and move around in. A basking temp, which should be the radient heat comming off of a basking site, should read somewhere around 130 degrees farenheight. I have spoken with uro breeders getting theres up to 150 when their uros are adults. However, this should not be your "hot side!" That should only be one desinated area "hot spot," in which the lizard can bask. Your amibient temperature of the cage should be around 80 degrees, remember this is your average temperature of the cage. What you want to do is create many deiferent temps ranging down from 130 from your basking spot on. In order to acheieve that kind of basking spot your going to want to use a elevated basking spot, either by using rocks, wood, cork bark, or my personal favorite, the Retes Stacks used by proexotics and developed by Frank Retes. The nice thing about the stacks is the uro can has diferent basking stacks to hide under while staying at the temperature that want to be at. When I use mine...the top os the stack reads 130 , the next stack down from there 120's, the next one down from that one 110, 97,84,75, so on adn so forth. This gives the uro an opertunity to choose from over 6 difernent temperatures to hide and bask at. One of the best purchases I ever made was a temp gun by proexotics! I hope some of my insight is helpful! Going back to what I said earlyer on working in the store and "cool side and hot side"...if you tell someone who is new to the hobby, cool side and hot side, you are indeed giving them advice, but to them its just saying that they need two temps, one thats hot and one thats warm and it gets them noware, but only to where they started from. I have had many customers come back with dead or half dead snakes and lizards telling me that they gave a warm and cool side with no other gradients. Half the time they don't even no their temps!!! haha but thats a whole nother issue . I hope i'm not attacking anybody in any fassion, just trying to clear some things up such as knowing your audience who you are typing to! I also hope that my spelling and grammer isn't to hard to understand, I typed this fast and I really do not want to re-read it over, haha!

Happy Herping,
-Paul

I never even thought about that. YES a WIDE gradient RANGING from 85-90 to 120-135 on the "hot side" with plenty of choices in between!

I agree! In the name of simplicity, not adding to confusion, and just getting the husbandry to a good baseline, I may have under-explained on a couple of points. One of the benefits of multiple points of input!

I had never really thought about the potential misunderstanding regarding "cool side" and "hot side". To me that carries an inherent "gradient" meaning, but I can completely see your point. Thank you for pointing that out, and for clarifying it! I shall have to add that to my response repetoire for the future. I generally figure Rete's stacks, and things like that are a more complicated thing to understand, and reserve them for "stage 2" intervention, (LOL), but I really liked your explanation!

Thanks again!

Elizabeth
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
Madison, Wisconsin

Your spelling is horrible but your advice is gud...

Elizabeth has given you a lot of great advice. I'd like to just add a couple more things to what she said. First off, while you're at Doug Dix's website, make sure you also check out his supplies page, specifically food supplements and Mazuri tortoise diet (Mazuri is a dry kibble that you soften with warm water and spread over the veggies). I got the uro dust, and Mazuri from Doug shortly after he began carrying them, and they made a huge improvement in my uro's growth rate. He is big and stout looking now. Another thing is, I've experimented with temps on the high side in the basking area, and found anything over 120F to be undesirable by my uro. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Elizabeth is wrong, I'm saying, experiment with the high side temps and learn from your uro. Mine absolutely avoided the basking area when I raised it. I currently have a 115F basking area that he likes, as well as a couple of slightly lower temp areas that he also uses frequently. I was told they need 105F to about 120F to properly digest their food.

Craigo

I agree! In the name of simplicity, not adding to confusion, and just getting the husbandry to a good baseline, I may have under-explained on a couple of points. One of the benefits of multiple points of input!

My last Uro also preferred a basking spot between 115 and 120, but disliked anything hotter than that. How did I know he didn't like it? He avoided the basking spot, stayed on the end of his tank with the coolest temperatures, and switched his normal sleeping habits from a specific location on the "warmer" side of his tank to the cool side. Once you get the basics down, there is some experimentation you will have to do to get the habitat most to the Uros liking!

One of the benefits of having Uros (or probably any reptile), there are few set rules, and there is always something to tinker with!

Great clarification, thanks for the clarification!

Elizabeth
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
Madison, Wisconsin

Hey guys,

me again haha, Craigo when you mention that your uro completly aviods a hot spot of 120 are you watching him every minute of the hour of the day? I would assume that you are a hard working class citizen either involved in school work or a job. Therefore you really don't know for a fact that your uro is avioding that hot spot during the period that your not watching him, am I wrong? Like I said earlyer, the uro will choose where, when and how hot he wants to bask at. Offering him a 120 ...even more if you believe in it...is really just a nice thing to have in the cage and it won't hurt as long as you have multiple hide spots for proper temperature gradients. I wouldn't shoot down what Elizzabeth said, 120 is accurate information. I actaually keep my guys with 140 as juviniles and on some of my days off from school I have knoticed them basking at or near that hot spot, which is usally on top of a Retes Stack. I'm actually astonished by some of the growth results I have seen! A reptiles metabolism is definately speed up when proper temps are acheived! This is quite a nice debate, I'm throughly enjoying this. I hope more people get involved!

Happy Herping,
-Paul

"are you watching him every minute of the hour of the day?"
This would also be a point related to the original problem in this post. It should be taken into consideration that the only time you see your Uro is on every third day, that might not necessarily translate to that being the only time he comes out. With a temp gun, I would try to find the temperature in the hide that Kong usually sleeps in and make sure it is getting up to a temp that lets him know it is daytime. Another thing to be taken into consideration is I'm sure many Uro's don't need to, or just don't eat every day. Btw, having Uro's named Zilla and Koopa I really dig Kong for a name too. $.02
JG

I agree also that a Pro Exotics temp gun is an indispensable tool.

Paul,
Please re-read my post if you thought I was putting down Elizabeth. As you can see, she understands where I'm coming from, and was able to see that I didn't dissagree with anything that she said. Her recommendations were great.

I have my uro's viv setup with 4 specific basking areas all at different temps. It has been this way for years. After about 3 years I happened to read a post here in which people were talking about significantly higher basking temps. than I'd been using (i.e. 140F). It got me thinking, so I upped the temp. at his primary basking area to around 130F and observed him for the next several days, I telecommuted at the time and had his viv in my office. He totally avoided that basking area, and confined himself to the cooler part of the cage. It is a large cage, with a 3' x 5' footprint so he has plenty of room to play with. I decided to put it back to the way I had it, and he returned to his beloved basking spot. My point is simply, it's okay to experiment with temps. but know what is required for proper digestion and good health. And listen to your charge.

sincerely,
Craigo

I am not sure it is necessary to be watching your Uro every second of the day to understand their response to, or need for, a change. If you have observed them long enough, at a variety of times of day and year, the observant owner should be able to tell when the Uro's behaviour changes substantially. Without necessarily having to observe them 24 hours a day. Now, this sort of knowledge I would think would take at least a year, of not 2 or 3, to acquire.

I am also not debating the importance of a temp gun, and the regular use of it. I completely agree with that point! I do not feel however that all Uros do well with the same amount of heat. In a 40 gallon tank there really isn't enough room for the Uro to be comfortable if their basking spot is too hot, imo. If they have a larger setup, like a 4 x 4ft living space, then I would think the environment would be a bit more forgiving to the Uro's preferences.

Elizabeth
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
Madison, Wisconsin

Good Point: every uro does not Like/need the same temp
esp. younger ones unless of course it is not so much the surface temp as the air temp. I have been outside with my temp gun and found hot spots of around 100 on a 70 degree afternoon. I have seen weather reports for Tessalit, Mali(looks like it is right in the middle of maliensis range by those distribution maps by i think CITES publishes) where the high temp is 111 for weeks on end and i wonder what the surface temp is on a nice sunny rock over there. I imagine hotter than 120 but do they bask at that time? To offer it as a choice even for a few hours in the afternoon is probably a good idea more than a bad one, provided it has other suitable choices for basking and doesn't HAVE to endure high temps to get UVB or to raise it's body temp.AND provided it doesn't raise the entire cage temp too much.
my 2 cent opininiom.

KnoldgReignSuprm,

I see what your saying and you have a point, but all of that comes into the experience of the keeper. If the keeper is skillful enouph, he/she can get a close basking spot, thats not the hot spot, close to a uvb source.

When sunlight hits a rock in the wild, that rock gives off what is called infrared light. It is invisable to the human eye. Another nickname, which is better understood, is "radient heat." Nocternal species will seek out radient heat at night...unfortunately this is where alot of snakes and lizards wind up as road kill on paved roads where radient heat is just pouring off of them. I would imagine that a rock shinning in the bright sunlight in the middle of a hot day in a particular country, would have a radient heat of 140 degrees. If you don't agree with me, try it yourself. Take a 50 watt halogen bulb spotlight and direct it towards a flat fock in a setup. Read the temperature with a temp gun and you tell me if i'm wrong or not.

I remember reading in a post in the monitor forums from Frank Retes that monitors and lizards in general don't bask every hour of the day because there are many predators out in the wild, especially in the African Savanahs. Birds of prey, snakes, other lizards, etc. Therefore most lizards in the wild will seek refuge in a burrow, or under a log, rock, or whatever it be and hide under there while capturing all the heat they need. This gets back to the Retes Stack, It allows for the animals to feel secure like under a rock or log, while basking at certain temperature gradients without the fear of being eatin by a predator. They are not stressed because they are secure by the pannels, but warmed by the gradient! Wow makes so alot of sence to me haha! Hope this helps!

Happy Herping,
-Paul

As a matter of fact I DO agree with you.I think people are scared to go above 120 when in reality the surface temps these animals have EVOLVED with ARE HIGHER than most realize. It is up to the experienced keeper to know the right range for each animal. The keeper should exercise caution when experimenting with temps not to overheat the entire environment was my advice more than a counterpoint.This is more of a question: Which is more important;surface temp, air temp,or is one simply related to the other in a consistant fashion?

I sense people may take me the wrong way...My name should be THRST4KNWLDG. Seriously I wonder about stuff like this all the time. If I get a reading of 85-135 in tiny increments on the temp gun along the cage everyday...Is the air temp in fact the same everyday?(Taking into consideration normal fluctation). Or is it different depending on the substrate, air quality and mobility,etc. Man I need to know!

Along with a temp gun that measures surface temps, you could get a regular dial thermometer for the air temp. I would have it somewhere in the area of interest about 4 inches off of the substrate.
JG

Your cage will be affected by the room temperature in the room that you have your setup in. So no your temperatures are not the same every day. Thats the importance of having good themometers and accurate readings. In my "reptile room" during the summer my room, with central air conditioning, will have a room temperature of 83-87 degres..OUCH! It affects my setups dramatically and I am always having to tweak bulb wattage etc. to make sure my setups have proper temperature gradients, but also that those gradients don't switch to one solid "cooking" temperature. Room temp can do that to you, and its annoying . Thank god I discovered proexotics awile back and read up on using halogen spot bulbs, 50 watts; not only do these bulbs get great gradients, but they can produce excelent amibiant air temps, if positioned proporly.

Happy Herping,
-Paul

Both air temperature and surface temperature are equally important factors in terms of success with keeping any lizard. If you read my post on infrared light, you would understand how important surface temperature is, especially for nocternal species. Ambient temperature is the average temperature in the cage. Therefore if you have a accurate reading average temperature of 80.5 degreed farenheight, your average temperature will be 80.5 degrees. Anything in the low-mid 80's is ideal for uros, but remember thats an average temperture gradient, and thus being important.Remember you should also offer other areas with cooler temps that cool down around 75 degrees or so, so the herp can thermal regulate accurately. However other air gradients should be offered around basking spots, hiding areas, and burrows (if given the oppertunity to dig). This makes understanding thermal gradients in general ALL extreamly important factors and yes going back to your post I would imagine from personal experience that they both coinside with each other as far as importance goes !

You can purchase a min/max indoor/outdoor thermometer from wal mart or home depot. Buy one with a reading probe and feed it to the spot you want to accuratly get a temp from. If you can find one with memory, you can actually go back into the thermomter and read temps thourghout the day. Those anolog thermometers by zoo med are horrible thermometers as far as accuracy goes, but I have knoticed that they are useful in discovering a ambient temp. Temp Guns read hot spots and surface tempertures. So using both a indoor/outdoor thermometers and a temp gun from Proexotics are nessesary tools to hitting your temps on the dot. However I think, but I'm not 100% sure, that the PE1 and 2 can read air temps, theres some way of adjusting the gun to a "hold" mode. I know how to do it, but I'm at school and I don't have access to my gun, haha. I hope my two cents make sence and help

Happy Herping,
-Paul

Now I wassn't saying to observe your uro every day to understand his needs. Thats very easy to do just by understanding his body language. I was just trying to get my point across that you can't necessarily jump straight to saying the uro doesn't like their hot spot of 140 degrees aka because you don't ever observe him using it, when indeed he may be using it, just not when your around to see it. However craigo, you obviously have knoticed through experiment that your uro thrives with a cooler hot spot, good job on your part, and parden me if I was mislead in your last post !

Now getting to the 40 gallon tank issue. It is possible to create many thermo gradients in a 40 gal. However it takes some skill and tweaking along the way to get it right. I have accomplished this with beardeds first and then for about a year and half now with uros. If your offer many hiding spots, such as small flat shale like rocks ramdomly placed to create cave like hiding areas, cork bark, or even better a Retes Stack, you can definately create the right amount of temperature gradients ranging from a hot spot of 140 degrees and all the way down to 73 degrees as a cool spot...no joke I have have done it myself. But nothing beats a 4x4 or larger custom built enclosure!

I think I'm being a little redundant from my last essay post so sorry about that. I'm just a man that can talk and talk about reptiles haha. Going back to the importance of a temp gun....its a must need tool for any serious reptile enthusiast!

Happy Herping,
-Paul

Gotcha.

I've never set up a classic retes stack, however I think they're a great method to create a temp gradiant for a lizard to find an ideal temp. I've set up one of my basking areas as a bilevel that he uses often. Another thing about a retes stack is they allow you to maximize your UVB if you're using a compact flourescent like the Arcadia UVB bulb. I have had a temp gun as well, and considering you can get them for as little as $25, I agree that they just take the guess work out of setting up a good vivarium.

Craigo

Thanks for all of your help guys, I would just like to add that my tank is a 20 gallon. its my mistake, however in my defence petsmart never told me that a 20 gallon would be sufficiant. I am going to petsmart today to pick up a 50 or 60 gallon tank for Kong. I am 100% sure that this has been causing her problems. I also think this has stunted her growth also. Thank you guys for all of your help again and i will post any new news on kong's health. By the way the blood under her jaw is going away slowly, so thats great. I am also bringing some of her droppings to the vet this weekend.

I am glad we could help!

Keep in mind that you are looking for floor space, not really height. Sometimes you get more floorspace with lesser "gallon" tanks. ie a 40 gallon breeder is lower and wider than a normal "40 gallon tank". There are better options than aquariums for a tank, but they are not quite as readily available.

Kong is lucky to have an owner willing to give her what she needs!

Glad we could help!

Elizabeth
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
Madison, Wisconsin

Haha, I bet you didn't think that you would get a whole debate out of your simple question did you? approx 35 posts...WOA, now this is what reptile forums should be like! We have to do this again ! The passion, interest and never ending conversations never dies out in reptiles

Happy Herping,
-Paul