Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I guess the real point I am throwing out there for discussion is: why use a male that is not a horn dog? Like other traits that are less visible but desirable in captive bred “pet market” snakes (ready rodent feeder, calm disposition, good breeder, etc.), using a male that is a difficult breeder only perpetuates that undesirable trait. Since no one I know of is producing biologically pure locality strains of L.leonis for reintroduction into the wild, why perpetuate traits that make them difficult to keep? The only reason I can think of (with my admitted limited mental capacity) is to establish a new mutation and even then a responsible breeder should be aware they are perpetuating a problem and outcross as soon as possible.

Any other thoughts?

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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

Well, I have one problem breeder, it is a yellow male that is a Dan V. male. I don't really want to pass on this trait but am very interested in seeing the cross between him and the lemke female. I guess in my mind the genetics would be good, but I am no expert on this by no means, the color and the background out weigh the fact that he is not interested or may not breed. I do hope that if he breeds this year the offspring don't have the same trait.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

I don't think you can really judge obvious breeding behavior that simply. This reminds me of a joke about an old bull and a young bull standing on a hillside. Looking down on a herd of cows the young bull say's to the old bull, "How about we run down there and breed with a few cows?" The old bull returns, "How about we WALK down and breed with them ALL!"

IMHO its all in the results, if a male produces highly fertile clutches with a high hatch rate he's golden in my book even if his behavior is such that I don't observe the hook up.

Maybe I came off a little harsh, 30 years in the military might do that. In my mind, if a male breeds and is highly fertile he is a good male whether I saw him breed or not. I am referring to males that only breed though manipulation (using other males etc…) and especially males that produce low fertility when they do breed.
Many factors can contribute to a problem breeder. There could be physical problems (including low hormone issues) or it could be that the needs of that particular animal are not being properly met. But then let me throw this thought out, if the needs of a particular animal are not met under normal captive husbandry practices, do we need to perpetuate the traits of that animal in captivity?

I think there is no easy answer but, as breeders (IMPO), we should at least consider these things.

I know it’s not always as fun as looking at all the cool and awesome thayeri but I’m here to learn from others too and enjoy reading what others think. Please don’t take my stupid opinions personal though.
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

...but you mentioned something else that’s worth talking about. No direct answer, just thoughts.

"But then let me throw this thought out, if the needs of a particular animal are not met under normal captive husbandry practices, do we need to perpetuate the traits of that animal in captivity?"

There are those who preach the need to be flexible and willing to adjust to meet the needs of each individual animal or we shouldn‘t be keeping them in the first place. I agree with this, with respect to being completely responsible in animal husbandry and maintaining all living things we choose to keep as happy and healthy as possible. I do the best I can in providing as many choices as possible, however I know as well as anyone else that the majority of the animals we keep thrive, and are seemingly very happy with how we maintain them, even though it may be a method that is condemned by others. The bottom line is… the majority of us pet keepers and breeders do things the way we do that are far less than perfect, but it works. And very well in most cases. If there is such a thing as a domesticated snake, some seem to do exceptionally well living in a plastic tub or glass aquarium, while others are a little more unsettled and problematic for the average pet keeper. I’m referring to both animals from bloodlines that have been bred in captivity for 20+ years, and those I’ve experienced that are 1st and 2nd generation removed from wild collected animals. Some from both groups are just naturally cool and collected, perfectly happy and thriving in our tubs, while a select few are nervous and want nothing to do with living as a captive in the exact same conditions as all others that are thriving.

My opinion is that it really depends upon what it is you are doing with your collection and breeding efforts. I’ve learned to adapt well enough to keep the wild ones happy enough to do well, exceptionally well in some cases and it’s worth it for me because of my interests. I think they are a more natural example of what the snake really is and I enjoy working with that. However if I were attempting to produce snakes primarily for the pet trade, I might want to only keep and work with animals that were better adapted or more easily managed, and I think for the most part it can also be passed along to some degree in the long run. But I honestly don’t believe you can wash away the wild completely. There will always be those that want to be free and out on their own, even while all of their sibs might be calm and content. If it happens to be a vigorous and otherwise thriving captive, for myself I feel it’s well worth keeping in the breeding group for it’s overall strength advantages. On the other hand if it’s a horribly poor feeder, otherwise weak or maladjusted individual, definitely not a keeper for any breeding purpose.
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Mike

really is no right or wrong answer. These are some of the things I consider with my animals so I thought it would be a good topic to discuss and think about, Ken’s post made me think to post about it.

There are those who preach the need to be flexible and willing to adjust to meet the needs of each individual animal or we shouldn‘t be keeping them in the first place. I agree with this, with respect to being completely responsible in animal husbandry and maintaining all living things we choose to keep as happy and healthy as possible. I do the best I can in providing as many choices as possible, however I know as well as anyone else that the majority of the animals we keep thrive, and are seemingly very happy with how we maintain them, even though it may be a method that is condemned by others. The bottom line is… the majority of us pet keepers and breeders do things the way we do that are far less than perfect, but it works. And very well in most cases.

While I agree in theory with the above thoughts, MY reality is that the snakes must thrive in the environment that I can provide for them. If they don’t, then the responsible thing for me to do is give them to someone that is able/willing to meet the needs of that individual. I have three types of caging for my colubrids, screen top tanks, large plastic drawers (18x28), and small plastic drawers (12x23). Some snakes seem to do better in the small plastic drawers, others do better in the other caging; if they thrive I leave them alone, if they don’t I try a different cage. I also have many different heat controllers so I can provide a mix of heat as well. However, if an individual cannot do well within my limitations then I do not keep it (there has only been a couple). I’m pretty much a bleeding heart though; I have force feed babies for 2 to 3 years before they would eat on their own. They are the snakes I give away as pets along with their parents, or in the case of a gorgeous pair of Woodeni AZ Mt Kings, I gave them to someone that was willing to work 2 to 3 years to get the babies to eat.

If there is such a thing as a domesticated snake, some seem to do exceptionally well living in a plastic tub or glass aquarium, while others are a little more unsettled and problematic for the average pet keeper. I’m referring to both animals from bloodlines that have been bred in captivity for 20+ years, and those I’ve experienced that are 1st and 2nd generation removed from wild collected animals. Some from both groups are just naturally cool and collected, perfectly happy and thriving in our tubs, while a select few are nervous and want nothing to do with living as a captive in the exact same conditions as all others that are thriving.

While I agree with your observations that some are just programmed to be different, I believe that the ability to thrive under common captive conditions can be selected for and that the incidence of problem children can be greatly reduced to almost none. If a person ignored color, patterns, etc. and only breed with snakes that thrived in the captive environment and continued to hold back and breed with the f1, f2, f3, etc. generations that also thrived under captive conditions then you would end up producing babies that would almost always excel in captivity. I have held back a couple though that did not fit into the “excel under captive conditions” category because color and pattern is important too. I am willing to except a few “pain in the rear” babies and work to provide them what they need. But, to continually hold back problem children would multiply the number of problem offspring.

My opinion is that it really depends upon what it is you are doing with your collection and breeding efforts. I’ve learned to adapt well enough to keep the wild ones happy enough to do well, exceptionally well in some cases and it’s worth it for me because of my interests. I think they are a more natural example of what the snake really is and I enjoy working with that. However if I were attempting to produce snakes primarily for the pet trade, I might want to only keep and work with animals that were better adapted or more easily managed, and I think for the most part it can also be passed along to some degree in the long run. But I honestly don’t believe you can wash away the wild completely. There will always be those that want to be free and out on their own, even while all of their sibs might be calm and content. If it happens to be a vigorous and otherwise thriving captive, for myself I feel it’s well worth keeping in the breeding group for it’s overall strength advantages. On the other hand if it’s a horribly poor feeder, otherwise weak or maladjusted individual, definitely not a keeper for any breeding purpose.

The hobby is very multi-faceted with plenty of room for all types of keepers, for the “naturalist” to the large commercial breeders. In the bird world I breed budgies but I also enjoy hearing the thoughts and practices of finch, canary, parrot, etc. breeders because, though different from my own interest, I get info to think about from listening to them all. So, keep the discussion going.

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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

Exactly… and I’m constantly curious about a lot of these issues myself and it’s interesting. I’m glad you had these thoughts and questions to toss around. Many minds are better than one, and this sort of chatter is more of what I look for here.

Selecting for animals that will adapt well to my personal limitations is what I’m doing here I suppose, right or wrong, without that specific intention. I just took down the remainder my display tanks and stored them away, making room for more tubs out of necessity. I could drastically reduce my collection to better provide for all individuals but I wouldn’t be able to do what I want to do. I chose to have the snakes all adapt to tub life, although I try not to restrict their space any more than necessary and use large tubs that some would tell me are too large for most colubrids and not necessary. But I know they appreciate the space and will ultimately live a slightly better life. My new adult female tubs measure 17 x 33 x 8.5, so I’m pretty much in line with your larger drawers. The difficult aspect of the decision to finally do away with the display tanks was knowing that there would be those certain individuals that wouldn’t fare nearly as well as with all the choices, places to be and things to investigate like they had in the tanks. Fortunately most all of them seem to be doing great with only a couple exceptions.

I do also feel genetic diversity plays a very significant role in the results, possibly more so than anything else we can do. Nature weeds out the weaknesses of inbreeding depression, in a captive colony if I were to choose to do much of that to achieve a certain result, I feel I need to be responsible enough to be on the lookout for, and filter out any potential issues.

It sure is tough letting those incredible looking but problematic ones go though, isn’t it? I’m always thinking that if I could just milk that thing through at least one clutch, I just might get the one or two vigorous examples to carry on the look along with all the qualities of what I would consider to be a champion captive breeder.
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Mike

Rich I definitely think this is a good topic and I wasn't making light of it. The joke I posted was an old fav so I couldn't resist but I think it’s relevant as well. My point was that just because a male isn't racing across the cage to breed with a female doesn't necessarily make him a bad breeder. I would agree that if he is hit and miss fertility wise and you have to trick him to get him to breed he should not be used.

Tony,
Thats one of my old time favs also.They used it in the movie colors with sean penn and ???can't remember his name.
Anyway,I have a male tangerine albino honduran here that I have been trying to get to breed for five years now.He has no intrest at all and it bumbs me out cause he is a real looker and could be carrying other genes as well.Frustrating for sure.

L8r Shannon

What can I say, I love bovine jokes!

This is a good topic but I'm not sure that it’s that big an issue. Poor breeding performance is pretty self limiting in that few breeders are going to continue throwing a low fertility male on productive females. Even if they never consider the concept of passing on a poor trait would sideline the male as soon as a more viable option presented itself.

I had this issue with the hypo coastal line and I suspect I'm not the only one because after 10 plus years you still don't see too many of them. I never did determine if the fertility problems were related to the original male or the females but a few generations of out crossing to other locality stock rectified the problem. Where I used to get about 25% fertility I now get very close to 100%.

I like the joke too (heard it with roosters too), it makes a good point.

What you did with your hypo's is what I was talking about, it's that kind of thing you need to be aware of. You recognized the issue and fixed it.

Several people have already mentioned wanting to get just a couple babies from a "lack-luster" male because he looked great or "carried good genes". Too many generations of that spells disaster.
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

And an important concern as to why I’ve generally added duplicates of both males and females to raise up. Once they pass all the other qualifying tests you mentioned to remain in the collection, my final concern likewise has been; will these animals that made it this far also pass the breeder challenge?

I agree that no matter how good it might be in other ways, any adult not seriously interested in breeding would be less than desirable to keep around year after year by the majority of us. That’s certainly my outlook on things, although I also believe they deserve a fighting chance to prove themselves. An unproductive adult is nothing more than a good looking pet. I prefer all my pets here to also be productive and somewhat predictable, otherwise I feel I’m wasting my valuable time. I have to agree again; I would certainly prefer their offspring to be the same.

It’s obvious you can’t “lock in” any given desirable behavior trait, it’s pretty much a coin toss from one animal to another as to what they will be. However I do believe in the concept of breeding for everything desirable and increasing the odds. I can’t help but to believe and agree that if you consistently focus on all positives, the end result will be a much higher percentage of good ones in all respects. I’ve removed some of my better looking animals from the collection because they didn’t make the grade for one reason or another, which is very difficult to do in some cases. With an animal that is superior in all respects except breeding (initially), I’ll give it plenty of opportunity to get in the groove and produce a clutch or two to see how things progress. My hopes would be that the great snake (although reluctant breeder) would eventually produce good clutches of great babies, and that the adults initial reluctance to breed was just a fluke thing and not passed along.

One issue you touched on is a serious issue with me, and I couldn’t possibly agree with you more than I do. That is, being a responsible breeder in all respects; inspecting very closely for and being aware of potential problems and being responsible enough to keep those problems off the market and/or out of breeding populations. I’ve paid top dollar for far too many animals with serious, and very obvious physiological problems that had to be replaced. In such obvious situations, the “I can’t believe I missed that” excuse just doesn’t fly with me and when I receive a replacement that is in even worse condition… I’m outta there forever. Perpetuating any undesirable trait and breeding/selling it without at least being honestly aware is irresponsible in my opinion.
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Mike

I'm not really sure about what you all's experience has been. But I have not really seen a male yet that was not fairly eager to breed. That being said if some of you remember last year I was suprised when Sharktooth seemed like he was at first reluctant to breed. It was his first year and I discovered that he was just inexperienced. After getting it wrong several times at first he picked it right up and became a "eager beaver breeder". He's in shed right now so I haven't tried him yet this year.

Now females have been another story completely. I've had a few females that are down right violently opposed to breeding and some others that are down right "easy". To this day I keep a female sinaloan milksnake that had trouble both times she laid clutches. She's small and her mate died years ago during brumation (talk about a horndog) but she's gentle, attractive, easy to handle, and is generally a good pet. She's the snake everyone can handle without getting pooped on or showing any aggression. I will never attempt to breed her again and she never seems to "miss" the breeding going on around her.

I agree with Mike. That's not a trait (low libido) I would want to pass on either but so far I just haven't seeen it being a problem. Now males or female that consistantly produce small clutches are definatly undesireable traits that would need to be weeded out BUT those are traits that may take years to discover

Mike and Rick do you have some males that really exhibit low libido? Or do you have some male/females that consistantly produce small clutches?
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

Chris,
No, I do not have any reluctant thayeri breeders. I have had some issues with a couple pair of Rosy Boas though. I did not mean to throw out a male that did not breed the first year, age should always be taken into account as should husbandry. I do have a friend (I mentioned before) that has a male that has been difficult to breed for years, that is one I would not continue to tolerate. With my Rosy Boas, it is a very unique locality and difficult to replace, that being said though, this year is their third and final try for me, I will give them away if they fail to breed again this year. One year is not a pattern of difficulty, but two or three is.
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

I do have a Thayeri male that seems to have a complete lack of interest in females. This is a mature male that I bought as an adult two years ago and has failed to get the job done for the past two years. He's the third adult male I've brought into the collection, the only Thayeri and the only one of the three that has consistently failed to breed a ready and willing female. As much as I would like at least one clutch from this male, I’ve pretty much signed him off. If I didn’t have so many nice young males ready this year I would probably give him one last chance, but honestly I’ve lost all interest in this guy.
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Mike

Did this male come from our old friend in Utah? If so I'd bet he was injured while he was young with a probe. I know for a fact there were multiple problems with probing and missexing.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

Actually he didn’t, this male was raised in Florida but I know what you‘re saying about those Utah snakes. I certainly hope Big Yeller Jr. hasn’t been injured with a bad probe job… this will be his first big year to prove himself. He does like females though, I introduced him to a couple at the tender age of two so he would know what a female was (similar aged females), and he wanted all the action they wouldn’t give up. The females weren’t ready of course, it was just a primer.

I think this reluctant male is just a very placid male with ZERO mojo. I’ve had a very ready and willing female literally strut her stuff all over him, tail raised and the whole bit right across his nose, he gave it one look and curled up in a corner like he was ready for a nap. That’s about as much interest as he’s shown in any female. Otherwise he’s what I would call an all around great snake… always feeds great, very healthy and robust, great temperament and really the perfect pet Thayeri. He couldn’t be more problem free, he just won’t breed a female.

I've wondered about his past though, possible injuries, other health issues or husbandry practices that could have caused problems. He’s the only male of any species I‘ve had, period, that has shown this much lack of interest. I’ve seen slow ones but they always figure it out.
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Mike

Well it does sound like you don't have to worry about him passing on any bum genes. LOL

I feel your pain though. It's a huge dissapointment when you've invested that much time, effort, & money in growing up a good looking snake and then discover it won't/can't breed.

I had a friend who had it even worse though.
He had a female that was a male killer. She killed two nice leonis males and a melanistic male and only laid one clutch in a four year period. Now there's some bad genes I wouldn't want passed on. He did finally "retire" her after she killed that melanistic male.

I have some of the offspring from one of the leonis males she killed, and a different female he had.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

I think I remember you telling me about your buddy’s male-killer female.

I have a VR orange leonis female that made a very hearty meal out of a VR orange leonis male when they were juvies. My foolish mistake that I’ll never make again. I temporarily had him in with a group of a few other females, got up at around 3am one morning and noticed the male’s lifeless tail protruding from the female’s mouth. I’ve kept male and female sibs together with no problems but never again will I leave an unrelated male/female pair together. I still keep small groups of females together with tremendous success though, thayeri, mex mex and alterna… unrelated females. I wish we lived closer so you could see how well it goes with that over here. I've honestly had timid females that I've introduced as cage mates that settled down completely, and became great feeders and very calm snakes. I brumate them together and the whole bit, never separated and I had greeri breed and produce clutches together in the same enclosure... stacked up nest boxes like nesting condos.

Knowing how a female can turn on a male however, I watch my adult male/female pairs like a hawk when I put them together, even if it’s for hours. I’ll sit at the computer doing my thing with them in clear view, watching every move they make.

Did your buddy leave his together unattended by chance?
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Mike

I try very hard to keep babies as singles, if I need to double up for room I try to double up the Rosy Boas first and the few times I needed to douple up Kings and Milks I make sure they are all rodent feeders.

My buddy once put all his baby Cal Kings in a 20 gal tank together. I cringed. To feed them, he would just put a handfull of pinks in a bowl, I couldn't watch. Amazingly, non of them ate each other. One was a non feeder so he decided to throw all his non feeders together in an other 20 gal; a couple Thayeri, AZ Mt Kings, a corn, and the Cal King. Guess what? The Cal King wasn't a non feeder after all, he was actually a very good feeder. I think some of them are just pre programed to eat certain things. It probably helps perpetuate the species in the wild during lean times.
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

That orange female I mentioned was a powerful pink feeder from the day I unpacked her, always has been a strong feeder on mice. There were a few other unrelated females in that group and she never gave the other girls or me any cause for concern, but she sure singled out that male. She's a 2003 hatch female and has lived with an unrelated female cage mate of the same ssp all this time, brumated together every year and they are both powerful feeders. On the other hand, I have to admit I had another thayeri group of one male and a few females do well from the juvenile stage through their second year, all the same age and prior to the male-eater female group. I removed the male one spring when he decided the girls were more interesting than just being cage buddies.

I've only introduced females of different species once, one thayeri and two alterna. The thayeri and the older alterna coexisted very well, the younger alterna female began to cause a fuss after a few months so I removed the thayeri and all was well again with the alterna females. I don't experiment with that any longer, only keeping like species/subspecies together and only females. Females don't always get along well though... I'd hate to see someone that isn't willing to observe for hours read this, decide to toss a few together and walk away! I've had to tear a few apart shortly after they were introduced and I did loose one young female to another... killed but not eaten. After several hours it becomes fairly obvious whether or not it's going to work if you know what to watch for, but it's probably not the kind of experience most folks are interested in.

Interesting about those Cal Kings, particularly when you added that the one reluctant feeder went right after the different species. Natural instinct can sometimes be impossible to overcome and most getula love eating other snakes.
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Mike