Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know how it is to write a good post and have it deleted so I wanna bring a point here to hopefully let some locale worshippers understand something.

The new Pit site looks awesome and I am sure it will be very popular. However it is a major turn off to see anyone whether it be intentional or not say comments like one person did about things other than what they're into seem uncool or not worthy of any attention.

I never understood why something like locale specifics seemed like a club you have to be a part of to get in on working with these snakes? Especially if preserving them is important to those who have always worked with locale projects....then it would be the more the merrier no??? Shouldn't it be a good thing to want others already working with Pits want to be into these snakes too? I am a morph guy........this is true. But if I did get any locale specific projects I'd keep them as is and not morph them out and many of my friends feel the same way. My point is why bring something to peoples attention to then belittle those people and say nah nah you can't have none? Or make us feel we're so different from you? Most people do not like to associate with or do business with people who have a bad attitude.......and if I am way off base here maybe what was said was just not worded in a way that made the point without taking a shot at something else???

Regardless I know that site is going to be something many of us look forward too. It is something I have always hoped would come to be. I just hope people who are looking for answers to simple questions are not going to get them with the feeling they're being talked down too. I don't wan't to start a pissing contest and don't have much else to say. However this is something I noticed long before this site came to be. The timing to mention what I said seemed proper as one post a bit below was a bit dissappointing. It was too me anyway. Good luck with the site guys, I really will be looking forward to seeing more info posted, and especially looking forward to more pics.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

that can go both ways... It can be tough to welcome new people into the fold if all you ever see is people get in, get out like a revolving door... After trying to feed them information. Much less selling them some of your animals only to never see them again.

BUT! I agree there's a point where you have to try the best you can to recruit new people or your information never goes anywhere, and dies with you. So I guess what I'm saying is, both sides probably could use a bit of trying to see each other's side of the issue. New person, needs to realize that people aren't always going to be friendly like a sweet puppy dog and give you tons and tons of kisses...

Hardened locale people, should try to encourage people to maintain locale animals and why that's important. In a hobby that more and more, it's, only what they look like, it's easy to lose any sense of locality meaning anything to people. I think with Pits there is hope of keeping some track on locality, but then all we have is word of mouth.

Example, yeah, here's this Kankakee locale bullsnake. Oh? how do you know? Well I bought it from Jim Bob, who got it's parents from Billy Joe, who got them from some guy that had their grand parents I think, from Jack who got them wild caught I'm told.

Almost everyone of my Pits is from John Meltzer. He tells me my Northern Pines are New Jersey stock. He can't tell me names past himself. Cause that's the agreement, and though I don't have a problem with that. Wouldn't that raise red flags for the locale specific people?

It's preferable to get captive bred stock. But really, it all comes down to honesty of the person your dealing with. Do I trust John Meltzer? Without a doubt. But what about the little guy, like myself. Sure I can tell you that, I bought the adults as babies from John, and so here you go, New Jersey locale Pines. Who am I to anyone? Or any little guy that is unknown, how do you know I'm not lying?

And then go the other way, for these poor locale guys, that have seen people buy their stuff, and outcross them to other locales and even other species... I don't blame them for being a bit cool to new comers!

Life isn't fair, and isn't going to hand out warm and fuzzy from the get go. You gotta work a relationship over time. John and I know each other pretty good. So we chat like the buddies we are. But no way am I going to be totally laid back with someone who out of the blue, wants my bestest of the best Northern Pine babies...

I'd rather see them go to a breeder I know that has become established and hope they keep the babies they buy instead of growing tired of them down the road...

I see both sides here. Both sides could use understanding in such an issue. So again, yes, new comers should be given a bit of lee way. But at the same time, newcomers must work a bit at developing relationships in order to get where they want to go. To prove themselves so to speak if that's in order.

I really cant add to what you said but very well said. Both of you.

jason

I see no reason why there should be any "sides". Don't all of us like snakes? Don't most of us in this subforum have a particular interest in pit's? What is the purpose of making enemies of the people who could be helping you and your hobby as a whole along into the future?

There is a basic problem with the "club" or "earn your place" approach. It is a problem that I have been on both sides of in the private software scene. The only time it works is when you have a product, in this case pit's, which have such demand by themselves that you have more people beating down your door then you ever want to have join you. In the custome software industry this can often be the case but it is not in herpetoculture as a hobby. As soon as you start building that wall of forcing people to 'prove' themselves to be given access you lose not only the fly by nighters but you also lose that kid who might have gone on to breed 20 different localities for 40 years.

While I can personally attest that it is painfull to help/hold someones hand through the learning process just to see them leave or not contribute you still lose more by not making it accessible. The only way you develope those gems of people who end up being long term helpfull contributors is if you help them early on when they need it. After that they can help do the same. This is the very reason for software FAQ sheets and forums used with team dev or open source software. It allows you to help everyone learn/get up to speed so that you can keep the best of the best instead of losing them before they get good.

As far as locality authenticity and CB babies all I can say is full disclosure and mass numbers of breeders is your best option. I believe, although I have not checked to confirm, that this is already underway with some species like cornsnake where they are developing registeries to keep documented lineages. WC is fine for some animals but if you are wanting pure localities then you need as broad a gene pool as possible that is pure to that locality in the captive husbandry population as soon as possible in case for one reason or another(developement, itergrading, natural disaster, predation, etc...) the native pop dwindles to dangerous levels. At that point the only option for fresh blood against inbreeding would be non-pure localities.

Any honest breeder should have no problem telling a customer who his breeding stock came from. If the customer does not believe the breeder they can ask the supposed source. While you are still relying on the peoples honesty it is unlikely you find a source which is both willing to full disclosure and which is trying to rip you off by lieing about the snakes background. In all honesty I cannot think of a single breeder I converse or do business with who is unwilling to supply their animals specific background or who would be offended/reluctant to answer inquiries as to my stock originating with them.

This is a problem almost unique to the locality breeder because the morph people will not be bothered if they have to outcross to a animal from a few counties away. For similar reason the morph breeders should be the locality enthusiasts greatest aid against loss of locality animals to non locality projects. If working together instead of fighting you can arrange to breed male locality animals to morph females as well as the locality females and you both get what you want with no loss of locality breeding animals.

Bottom lines is it is best for all in the hobby to have as many others interested as possible for the continuation of the hobby and those species/localities which would not otherwise exist anymore. Most of the turnover or effort involved can be minimized or eliminated by simply being organized and providing the access it yourself resources that cover 90 % of what new people need. I hope this is taken in the practicality vein it was intended and I apologize for any typo's or vague points which I will try to correct as I am made aware of them.

Sincerely,

Sean.

Sean, very well put. Your comparison is well stated and anybody should be able to identify some sort of "click" in general.

As for sharing knowledge, why would you not want to help someone learn all the ins and outs of owning something like a pit. Yes, the emails and phonecalls get tiring, and the constant revolving door of people getting in and out of the hobby, but education is one of our greatest tools. It's bad enough that snakes in general get bashed all the time for no reason at all. Just look at the original writing of the bill here in Texas. Really no basis for it other than someone doesn't like them.

The new website looks like it could be awesome and hope it covers all pituophis as the name suggests.

Scott Robinson

I feel there is no place for snobbery in this hobby and we all have much in common even though our specific interests may vary. We are all snake keepers in some manner or other. As in any hobbyist group the experience level and commitment is different from one person to the next. My particular interest is in locale specific Pits of the melanoleucus complex including sayi and ruthveni. There are others that find themselves gravitated towards those snakes of the catenifer complex or perhaps the various color morphs of each. While this is not my field of interest I respect and understand that we are all not the same and each of us should pursue that which we find fulfillment in.

Phil
pituophis.org

Well said, Phil. Nobody needs to know any reason why your site doesn't cover western forms EXCEPT that you are working on a site for the snakes that interest YOU the most. I'm just sorry some of the other people are already associating your new website with these "snobbery" problems. I've never had that feeling in any over our extended email conversations! I have a lot of respect for you.

...but I must admit that some of the other supporters had enough of an "in your face" attitude on top of a STRONG condescending tone that offended even me. Again, I've never had any type of feeling like that when we have talked in the past! I've enjoyed our free exchange of information.
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

"...but I must admit that some of the other supporters had enough of an "in your face" attitude on top of a STRONG condescending tone that offended even me. Again, I've never had any type of feeling like that when we have talked in the past! I've enjoyed our free exchange of information."

I think you hit the nail on the head there KJ. Phil I don't necessarily think that people are feeling ill will towards you or your website. It is truly a great thing that you are doing. I do feel that comments made lower down the page are unnecessary and quite arrogant. I made a comment down a ways also that I was really pleased with how much activity this forum has had lately. I remember 3-4 years ago it was much the same as it is now, and then too many people had ego's and attitudes when it came to newbies asking questions or flaming someone who liked something that the other didn't. I really hope this forum stays on track and continues to be the quality place that it can be. I'm not saying that it is always going to be a love fest, nor should it. I'm just saying there are ways to express your opinions without being outright rude. Just my two cents. Keep it up Phil!

Jeremy

Thanks for the kind words guys. I would not deny that I have not always agreed with everyone on here on every topic. We all have our own perspectives and disagreements are sure to occur from time to time. Through it all I have found more friends than enemies so I can live with that. Even those that I have had differences of opinions with I choose to respect and harbor no ill will. To those I may have offended in the heat of discussion, my apologies. Honestly I believe we should strive towards finding common ground and not differences. I suggest we all move forward in a positive direction.

On the catenifer issue regarding the Pit website we have recently launched. I would be less than honest if I were to say that my interest level regarding the western Pits was on the same level as those from the east and midwest. This is my personal field of interest, no more, no less. That said I do have an appreciation for the western Pits, especially affinis and deserticola. Beautiful snakes that certainly warrant our interest. I would not completely rule out us expanding to the western forms of Pituophis but at the same time I see this as very unlikely. Not because the western Pits do not deserve coverage but more due to time constraints on my behalf and the fact that my primary interest lies with those types from the east and midwest. This has been a time consuming project (and I have many). As it is I will be taxed now to make updates since the field season has arrived and my attention will be drawn elsewhere. If anyone is interested in creating a website devoted to western Pits I would be more than glad to assist in any way possible. I have access to dozens of incredible photo's taken by Pit enthusiest friends of mine from the western U.S.

A photo of what has occupied most of our free time most recently. This is one of five funnel traps we have placed in the past several weeks in Kentucky in our efforts to discover additional northern pine snakes from this locale.

Goal number one has been to establish this rare locale in captivity. Goal number two includes telemetry at a secure site to learn more about this relict population. Goal number three is to work with state authorities towards eventual release of CB specimens from this locale back into historical habitat.

Thanks again and sorry for the long winded post!

Phil

"Goal number one has been to establish this rare locale in captivity. Goal number two includes telemetry at a secure site to learn more about this relict population. Goal number three is to work with state authorities towards eventual release of CB specimens from this locale back into historical habitat."

That is really cool Phil.Those are admirable goals. Good luck with that. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Thanks Tom. We are up against it but moving forward at every opportunity. Yesterday we buttoned down out traps in preparation for the upcoming season. God willing we will move forward and bring this project to fruition.

A few off topic photo's to share from yesterday in the field.

Prairie kingsnake - Grayson county Ky.

Black kingsnake - Edmonson county Ky.

Northern copperhead - Edmonson county Ky.

Three eastern hognose snakes discovered under a single sheet of tin.

Spring is here and life is good! I wish you a happy and productive season.

Phil

Good luck with the project. Goals like the reintroduction are some of the reasons I mentioned the import of broad genetic base in captive bred locale husbandry.

It's definitely nice to see your web page and hopefully you can get some volunteer help maintaining it so you can keep up on all your interests. As far as covering all pituophis I think it is silly for anyone to make demands of what you will cover with your site when they are not paying for the site. It might be cool though to link between sites if anyone opens a site covering some of the species/locales that you do not have the time/interest to cover yourself. That way the work is distributed to those with the most interest but people can easily access any of the information on any of the sites. just an idea anyways. Good luck again.

Sincerely,

Sean.

As far as covering all pituophis I think it is silly for anyone to make demands of what you will cover with your site when they are not paying for the site.

Exactly my thought too! I bet there is a few people on this forum that have the knowledge and passion for dedicating a site completely to gophersnakes if they would like to. Gophersnakes are awesome and come in so many localities and colors themselves. Kevin

Don't get me wrong, given the choice of two seperate sites or a single site covering all I would prefer a single site. I was just acknowledging two things.

1) I don't make demands of others property just because I think it would be better a different way.

2) I acknowledge the limitation of time available to devote to a single project while maintaining a life.

My suggestions were just ideas of ways that we could accomodate everything and still not be imposing on a private individual and their site.

Another possibly even better option, assuming it were feasible, would be to have everything on the single site but just have all the locales/species material other then the owners interests be provided by others who are interested in them. This would put all of the burden on those interested in the western varieties to provide the materials to be posted.

I say if it is feasible because I do not know factors such as whether more webspace would have to be bought to accomodate the additional material. How easily it is to just drag and drop or add material in to the existing site. Or any other factors that may impact the site or cause the owner to be inconvenienced by additional material. I do not play with web pages so I am not sure about most of these factors and would not expect the owner to go out of their way for something they are not interested in. Thats why I made the suggestions I did earlier instead of this one even though as a member of the public the single site is more convenient for me.

Either way some resources are better then none and I am always glad to see more herpetoculture resources be made available.

Sincerely,

Sean.

and should it come into being I'd gladly support it. A site focusing on the eastern forms has been needed for quite some time; Phil, myself, and others have been discussing such a site for a while. Phil brought it to fruition, and it's off to an excellent start. The eastern forms are not as well understood as the western animals, due primarily to more specialized habitat requirements and often disjunct, fragmented ranges. The Northern Pine, the first of the genus described, is perhaps the least known of any member of the genus, just look at the big gaps in its range. Any of you who threw dirt at Phil for birthing the new site should be ashamed of yourselves. As for me, I will admit to being careless in my wording at times in the below posts, which I very much regret,and that Phil may have taken abuse as a results of my posts is something that bothers my deeply. My regrets end there, however. If being arrogant means working hard to acquire knowledge on a given subject, and encouraging others to reach higher, I stand guilty as charged. I've been put down on this forum before for encouraging people to get in the field, learn the use of field guides,and keep gene pools pure, to name just a few. One character even went so far as to name a virus after me (any of you folks remember THAT one?). It doesn't bother me; I have strong opinions, and criticism occurs as a result. Phil Peak deserves better.

Bart Bruno

Hello Bart,
In my previous post I used the word arrogant. I wanted to be clear in that it felt like the comment was arrogant(as opposed to you being arrogant). I do not know you but know of you and have never heard anything but positive. That made it all the more confusing to me when reading your post. I am glad that you have come to clarify. We all love the genus Pituophis. End of story. Lets everyone shake hands, share knowledge, share pics, and understand the fact that not everyone is going to share the same opinion on everything. I truly believe you are a large asset to this community. Thank you for your contributions to this forum, Phils website, and the hobby. No hard feelings here. Take care!

Jeremy

No hard feelings here either. Feel free to contact me privately if you wish.

Bart

I never saw your earlier post as offensive or arrogant,its comical what people will get they're panties in a twist about,LOL. If someone puts up a gophersnake site they will probably get posts saying they didn't do this or that or whatever. Its kind of a no win situation. Good job on the pit site as well! This forum is not as bad as the Grey-Band forum as far as locales goes,those guys will pee on you practically to mark they're territory,LOL,but I respect all the hard work those guys have put into just gray-bands and expect that reaction. Kevin

I agree with you, some will be in agreement, others won't. Regardless of whether people agreed or disagreed with my post, it's important to note that it got people to think, and thinking is a good thing to do.

Exactly!!!

Thanks for the support Bart. I think over all the feedback has been very positive regarding the Pit website and for this I am encouraged. I also appreciate all the contributions you have made towards its success.

Phil

That has got to be a rewarding study with the northern pines! Keep up the great work in the field and on the website! Kevin

Excellent post Jeremy!!
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Genesis 1:1

I feel there is no place for snobbery in this hobby and we all have much in common even though our specific interests may vary.

very true statement.
why not practice what you preach phil,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Wasn't sure where to jump in here but this seems as good a place as any. There are a LOT of local snobbs out there but my experience Phill isn't one of them.

Thanks for the support Tony!

Phil

Great post Phil!!!
I love your site, and thank you for letting me submit photos. I can't stop looking at all these awesome photos of locale specific pits in the wild. Your work on putting this together needs to be highly commended.
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Genesis 1:1

Wow! Apparently I missed the post that generated this whole topic. I'm still trying to understand all the fuss. While I am strongly in favor of keeping locales pure, I also wouldn't be averse to crossing locale lines (when I eventually do get into breeding)within a ssp if it would produce something stunning morph-wise like what Jason or Tom are turning out.

reako45