Reptile & Amphibian Forums

How does everyone know that the same poison in the dog and cat food isnt getting into the rat chow? Also, dont alot of people feed dog food to their rats?

Just a thought?

Wouldnt it take awhile before it was to show up in the frozen feeder supply chain? The big suppliers must have rats and mice from awhile back frozen that they sell. Wouldnt the current problem take awhile to show up?

Sure a lot of people feed dog food to their rats, but those people don't sell frozen rats.

The food recall was wet food, not dry food, so there shouldn't be a problem with it trickling to rodents.

~jenny
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1.4 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, Periscope, Dot, and Coco)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 mice (Cute Girl Mousy)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
0.0.5 tropical fish (tetras and a neon blue gourami)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
0.0.1 chupacabra (it ate our chickens)

jenny.thegreenes.org

actualy there is a dry dog food recall now...2 different brands also....glad we dont use that kind

Haha, well then I eat my words.

Even so, rat food is made by different companies in different factories/plants out of some different stuff. Doubtful rats'll be affected by it.

And, responsible frozen rodent sellers won't freeze and sell rats that died from mysterious causes.

~jenny
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1.4 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, Periscope, Dot, and Coco)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 mice (Cute Girl Mousy)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
0.0.5 tropical fish (tetras and a neon blue gourami)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
0.0.1 chupacabra (it ate our chickens)

jenny.thegreenes.org

I was hoping you didnt think I was trying to come off as a know it all. Just wanted to add to that. I know how some responces can look that way @ times

Nope I hadn't heard yet about the dry dog food also being recalled, so it was good you mentioned it. Do you know what bran names, by any chance?
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1.4 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, Periscope, Dot, and Coco)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 mice (Cute Girl Mousy)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
0.0.5 tropical fish (tetras and a neon blue gourami)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
0.0.1 chupacabra (it ate our chickens)

jenny.thegreenes.org

I'll see if i can find it, it was on my comcast start up page and I read it to tell my roommate incase he used that kind lol

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN3134587120070331?feedType=RSS
I found this but it don't mention teh dry dog food sadly

For some reason I think it was science diet and Iams

The only dry food so far that has been recalled is the Hills Nutrition cat food - There have also been some cat, dog and ferret "snacks" that have been recalled due to salmonella. Menu foods did expand their initial recall to all of the wet foods - regardless of the date. But so far there haven't been any recalls of dry dog food.
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Tosha

If I understand it correctly, MANY large, very high and low quality dog and cat food manufacturers receive their raw material from the same supplier.

It is at this very large supplier that the contaminated ingredient was introduced.

The way I see it, dog and cat foods are made from high protein grains and meats. Wouldnt rat chow be made from the same material? It would make sense to me that the rat chow producers might buy their raw materials, wholesale, from a big supplier...no? If I was a rat chow maker, I wouldnt want to bother with stocking all that junk, I would just order it.

Also, I think this contaminant doesnt kill the pet right away. It leads to renal failure over time, with consumtion. A rat provider wouldnt neccessarily have to be dishonest and freeze and sell dead animals. The rats could have low levels of the toxins and only after you feed the snake several meals, over time, might it do harm?

Just wondering?

Rat food doesn't usually have lots of high protein. There's some, I'm sure, but not the amounts that are in dog food.

The recall was over contaminated grain that had rat poison on it.

Rat food is not made by the same brand - thus, different factories, different suppliers, no worries over poisoned grain.

~jenny
-----
1.4 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, Periscope, Dot, and Coco)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 mice (Cute Girl Mousy)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
0.0.5 tropical fish (tetras and a neon blue gourami)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
0.0.1 chupacabra (it ate our chickens)

jenny.thegreenes.org

I thought dog and rat chow had roughly 18-20% protein? I may be wrong, I buy my rats. I thought thats why some people feed dog food to their rats, because its similar?

You can feed some dog food to your rats, but it's not good for them to eat a lot of it. They're omnivorous, so some meat is good for them, not a lot of it though. I give my rat chicken bones and steak bones once in a while with his veggies. It's pretty bad to feed your rat solely on dog food, though. It doesn't give them everything they need. They'll survive on it, but they won't be healthy.

even sooooo... it still stands that the different companies (tend to) have different suppliers.

~jenny
-----
1.4 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, Periscope, Dot, and Coco)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 mice (Cute Girl Mousy)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
0.0.5 tropical fish (tetras and a neon blue gourami)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
0.0.1 chupacabra (it ate our chickens)

jenny.thegreenes.org

The ingredient that caused the recent pet food recalls in WET cat and dog food is called melamine. It is a compound used in plastics manufacture and other manufacturing industries.
It is NOT rat poison, although it does cause renal failure. Melamine becomes more toxic as more accumulates in the animal's system.
Cats are more sensitive to the toxic effects of malamine than dogs.
It does require some time for an animal to expire from melamine intoxication. The kidneys fail... and the animal is no longer able to excrete the waste products they normally would be able to eliminate. The other organ systems will then cascade and death will occur when there is a total crash.

To date, NO dry foods have been linked to THIS recall.

(As mentioned earlier, there was an unrelated recall for salmonella contamination in a few chicken varieties of one brand of "moist-dry" feed pet treats.)

The melamine was a contaminant in wheat gluten...which is commonly used to thicken "gravy type" mixtures...and WET pet food sauces and gravies.
Normal wheat gluten would be harmless to you and/or your pets.
However, this was contaminated wheat gluten which was purchased cheaply form a Chinese source. The labeling on the imported wheat gluten was not very clear and inspectors were not able to determine if the wheat gluten was intended for industrial use or food use.

They were able to determine that, so far, this wheat gluten has not been used in human food.

Dry dog and cat food is safe for your pets and has NOT been recalled.
So, I think that Rodent Feed, which is obviously dry, should not have any problems either.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

Very concise and informative - Thanks.

Alan

As for as the wet foods they do have rat poison in them - the only think at this time that has melamine in it is Hills dry cat food . Doctor Doolittle . David

No rat poison has been found in the pet foods.
It was initially suspected to be rat poison...but later ruled out as the cause.

The Hills dry/moist feeds were contaminated with Salmonella...not melamine. All of these Hills feeds were chicken based diets...Chicken jerky for cats and Chicken Jerky Treats for ferrets, etc.

The melamine recall is associated with WET canned feeds and is unrelated to the Hills Diets Salmonella recall.
Information obtained from ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN.
(There is plenty of good information on the net as well...be sure to confirm with a reliable site.)
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

Well any one raising rats/ mice to feed to reptiles that is feeding them dog food is crazy , 98% OF DOG FOOD CONTANSE RED DIES AND RED DIE IS POSIN TO A REPTILES KIDNES and will cause renal failure . Thanks David of DS Reptile Rescue

Dave,
I would be interested in any scientific reference supporting your statement that red dye is toxic to reptile kidneys.
Thanks Grant

I don’t have it in front of me right now but ask any reptile Vet. that has been around for a long time. There was a rodent producer about 10-12 years ago that was feeding his stock dog food and his customers reptiles started dieing so after they did a bunch of necropsies and they all had renal failure and then they found that they all fed rodents from the same supplier ,they started testing the rodents and all had a high level of red die that had acuminated in there body’s . go to the monitor forum and ask about feeding dog food and about red dies. thanks David

Ahh, the old Dog food debate!
First of all, I can say without any doubt that the statements made about red food coloring in Dog Food being a cause of renal failure are entirely FALSE. These types of rumors are often started on forum boards...and who knows where else? There is NO basis of fact in these statements.
Just because you read it somewhere does NOT make it true. This is an inflated false opinion.
Perhaps Dave was just misinformed...so no offence to him.

And as for the protien content...it will vary from one brand to another and (even in the same brand) from one variety to another.
If you do not prefer to feed a high quality...and more expensive rodent feed to your rats and mice, you CAN safely feed dog food ....but use your head.
For example:
If you purchase a bag of Mazuri Rodent Feed, Harlan Sprague Dawley's - Teklad Rodent Diet...or LabDiets Rodent Chow, you can then read the guaranteed analysis on the bag.
Now, compare the percentages of the ingredients as well as the actual ingredients themselves...
(You may be surprised in the considerable variation of percentages in each Brand of similar style rodent diets.)
No compare this information to the guaranteed analysis on several different brands and types of dog food.
Then, select a Dog Food that will most closely match the percentages and ingredients of your prefered brand or variety of diet that was actually formulated to feed rodents.
You may be surprised to see that some types of dog food are very similar to rodent feed.
Of course, some is very different. Just get as close as possible.

Other things to take into consideration...

You might want to select the larger "Chunck" style dog food...as it will not fall through the feed hopper bin.
(The small stuff will fall through and simply be fouled or wasted by the rodents.)

When you compare the prices of Actual Rodent Diets to the prices of a nutritionally similar Dog Food, you will need to compare the price by weight...not by the volume of each bag.
Dog food is not compressed as tightly as that of rodent chow.
So the rodents will consume almost any dog food more quickly by volume.
But the the weight is fairly similar.
The cost difference is considerable! For the budget herper a good, nutritionally similar, dog food will certainly save you some money.

And for those who would rather use the Real Rodent Chow...
Good Dog Food will also come in hand if you keep a bag or two on hand, in case your supplier is out, or your shipment is delayed. The rats and mice still have to eat! In a pinch, the dog food will be fine.

Your rodent production will remain just as high.
The feeders will be healthy and strong.
And the food is safe...red colored or not.
In fact, in my experience, the rodents seem to prefer the red colored feed over the brown feed.
(Perhaps that would be a great science project for some kid on the psychology of rats!?!? LOL)
But seriously....think about it. The red food coloring will be metabolized by the rodents. They will be healthy...and so will the reptiles you feed these rodents to.
How many Bearded Dragon or Iguana foods are manufactured with red food coloring??? A LOT. Red Food Coloring will not harm your reptile's kidneys, brains or sex organs!
You probably even consume red food coloring at least once a week... and Unfortunately, Your Children will Not be Sterile either! < laugh, that was joke.
Hope that clears a few things up. Great topic by the way!
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

Is that why others and my self that lost animal and had the Vet. Ran test preformed were told as to cause of death being Renal failure from accumulation of red die # 5 & 12 ..---- yes I guess I was so misinformed that I was compensated for my louse and Vet bills by the pet store that sold me the mice and they were part of a class action low suit as were others that bout directly from the breeder and they were compensated and then about a year later the breeder filed ch.7 and went out of business .but I am sorry for trying to inform those of you that do not wish to be informed and all I can do is tell you what I went threw and you can make your own conclusions . Thanks David of DS Reptile Rescue

Harlan,
A man after my own heart and one who is alot braver than me to lay it out here in the forum. I started a similar reply to this post but chickened out and didn't send it because I didn't want to deal with the potential fall out. But you have helped me grow a backbone.
I have a breeding colony of about 250 breeder female rats and I feed both rodent block and dog food. In my own side by side comparison (one rack on rodent chow, another on dog food) the rats actually MUCH prefer the dog food, grow faster, with more fat. Some may argue that the higher fat is not good for your snakes, but I have found feeders higher in fat really brighten and shine up your snakes and significantly improves shedding. I think your comments on the red dye are right on too. I have NEVER seen any scientifically validated study that would support any adverse effects of red dye.
There are a couple of things to keep in mind from my experience if you plan to feed dog food to rodents.
Rodents don't need the high fat content supplied by many dog foods and actually I have found mine do better on those feeds with fat contents under 10%. Secondly, they do not need the very high protein contents of the Hi-pro dog foods. I think you are wasting your money buying anything with a protein content over 21%. If anything was going to do harm to your rats kidneys I think it might be a long term diet of very high protein food. Protein is the hardest thing for your kidneys to process as it creates the most nitrogen durng metabolism. Another thing to keep in mind is that overly high protein levels actually increase the smell of the urine produced by the rats as it contains more excreted nitrogen in the form of urea. Probably the most important thing to keep in mind is that there is some research that suggests that diets high in soy can reduce the fertility of your rat breeding colony by increasing the levels of estrogen produced. This is why you don't see soy bean meal in any commercially produced rodent chow (at least that I am aware of), but many dog foods have it (especially the Hi-pro types).
The brand of dog food I have been using for the last year as a supplement to harlan rodent block is the "Doggie Bag" brand produced by Tractor Supply. It is a larger chunck style food and as I recall (without looking at the label) it is 18% protien and 8% fat content with no soy. It is a low protein, low fat dog food that probably wouldn't be too good for your dog, but rats seem to do very well on it. I buy it for just under $9 bucks a 40lbs bag (compared to $10.50 33lb bag of Harlan)so it is about 30% cheaper. Different strokes for different folks and I am not trying to offend anyone, but I produce ALOT of rats and feed alot of dog food, not because I have to, but because I actually think they do better than on rodent block alone.
Best of luck and good herping to everyone.
Grant Whitmer

Hello Grant,
Great to see your post.
I agree with most of what you had to say about the protein and fat contents. And the information about soy should be valuable to anyone interested in trying the dog food as a substitute rodent feed.
We use both Dog Food and Rodent Feeds. I have done so for more than 11 years...NO PROBLEMS, not with rodents or reptiles.
And yes, the rats and mice do seem to prefer the dog food over the rodent diets.
I personally always prefer to select a lower fat content, as it seems that higher fat makes the rodents a little "messy".... if you know what I mean?
I also notice that higher crude fiber seems to be a good choice....cages are not as messy with higher fiber content.

On a side note...I was not trying to get anyone's panties in a bind. The nature of my post was to be informative.

Grant, I believe you may have even asked Dave for some factual data to back up what he stated about FOOD COLORING causimg kidney failure.
And the answer posted back (in reply to your question) was pretty vague.

We were merely looking for verifiable facts.

Red dyes used in food products (same type used in human or animals) are cleared by the FDA. I think I would rather make my choices based on THEIR extensive research.
(Just don't sweeten your rodent's food with saccharine...as we ALL know this causes cancer in Lab rodents! LOL.)

If red dye caused renal failure, the rodents would be affected as well. But, for them to metabolize the dye, be fed to your snakes, and then cause the snakes to have renal failure...is a little far fetched.

We are all aware of how predators can pick up toxins from their prey items....(example:Raptors getting DDT from other birds, which got the toxins from eating insects sprayed by the insecticide.
But the other birds were also affected by DDT.)

I have personally fed some groups of rodents on a strictly dog food diet (WITH RED FOOD COLORING) and others on Rodent Diets, just to see if the rats had a difference in growth and production. I can afford more expensive feeds, but I was curious to see if there was actually a difference. I am the first to admit I am not a scientist...I did this to answer my own questions.
There is not much of a difference, other than price and the fact that rodents (when given a choice) seem to prefer the dog food.

Now, I prefer chocolate over Brussel sprouts. But this does not mean that I should make chocolate my dietary staple. (I am willing to try that experiment as well!!!)

I also wanted to see if the rodents would become obese or if they would have a greater propensity for mammary cancer tumors. I wanted to see any possible changes in production.
There was NO real difference.
As well, there was no difference in the health of the reptiles... (which were fed rats, which ate dyed dog feed.)

I have been involved in the reptile trade for 20 yrs...more than 11 as a State Licensed Business. Never a case of death due to renal failure.

(Some antibiotics, like Amakacin can cause crystallization in the nephretic tubules of the glomerulus...in the kindey. This will lead to renal failure...and eventually death of the animal. This is why they advise you to only inject in the cranial first third of the snake's body...and to insure proper hydration when using an antibiotic like Amakacin. I personally would never use Amakacin or Genecin/Gentamiacin, as there are better and safer antibiotics available to choose.)

One case of renal failure should not be attributed to red dye #5....when more than 11 years of use have not shown a problem.
I am not saying that Dave did not suffer a loss from kidney failure. I am saying that red food coloring was not the cause of the problem....
As well, I am sorry for Dave's loss...whatever the cause.

To verify my point I did speak to a great EXOTIC Animal Vet. (Dr. Paul Bingham, DVM at Redstone Animal Hospital) and he assured me that Red Dye #5 is quite safe in either mammals or reptiles. (humans included)
He also said that in order to prove that the renal failure in Dave's animal could be attributed to the food coloring you would need to do a lengthy research project with LOTS of SUBJECTS and MANY years of study. (Not to mention $$$$) (Already cunducted by the FDA.)
Dr, Bingham said the problem is that the dyes were previously metabolized....just as I had suspected, and VERY little (if anything) will be passed along to the secondary consumer....your snake.
I am certain that Dave is wise enough to see that this is not an attack.
This is an attempt to provide good INFORMATION.
Verifiable information.
Grant, it was great to read your post! Hope to see more.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

Harlan -

I am not going to argue the point with you - I don't raise rodents any longer - when I did raise my small colony I used high protein rodent chow and produced wonderful feeders for my snakes. My frozen rodent supplier uses high protein rodent chow also and I'm very pleased with the results. I wouldn't pass judgment on someone that feeds dog food to their rodents - but to me it carries the stigma of settling for "good enough" or taking shortcuts or just being cheap - again I don't care to argue the point but that is just my personal view - I'm wrong a lot. I guess when you consider that reptiles only use up like 30% of the nutrients they receive from their feeders even the most undernourished feeders probably have more than enough nourishment for the domestic snake.

Also there are many studies out there about the harmful effects of red dyes on lab animals (yes rats and mice) and I used to have a few of them in reference to how it can be passed on from feeders to reptiles (sorry most of this stuff is packed away in storage). To say no studies have been done is not exactly true. Whether these are the same red dyes currently used in the dog food that you are feeding your feeders - I admittedly don't know - but even if it's not in your food - who's to say it won't be in the food of someone reading your post.
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Tosha

Tosha,
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. (Yes, including you)
I would never claim, "NO studies have been done"....in fact if you read the post, I said that studies HAVE been done...by the FDA. (You know, the same administration that allowed red dye #5 to be used in your Valentine's Day candy...hope you got some!) (Relax...just trying to evoke a smile.)
I am also not going to say that any government agency or program is infallible or above making mistakes.
If it were scientific verifiable fact that red food coloring caused renal failure...the FDA would be the first to ban it in either pet or human food use. This has been studied by a LOT of people. Certainly there are people who's studies might show that cupcakes cause cancer! (Perhaps they do!)
I welcome any factual data to show that feeding a nutritionally comparable Dog Food to your feeder rodents is inferior to the commercially produced Rodent Feed. You might also compare the different varieties and brands of actual rodent diets with one another. There are plenty to choose from! Perhaps we would then know the best brand and variety of Rodent Chow to select.
This information is valuable to all of us.
And I really do not care to argue with anyone...This is a forum. Used for sharing ideas, opinions and facts.
While I do use dog food as a backup feed, I also use Rodent Diets. Both do have their place.
Some people might benefit from having a substitute food while there is a delay...or who knows...maybe something like a future recall?
Some people might prefer to use only dog food...if they do, I hope that they will use their head and research it a little first. I tried to supply good information to assist in that endeavor. Everyone wants healthy animals...both feeders, breeders and consumers....(reptiles).
Having choices is what it is all about. And making informed choices is even better.

To blatantly inform everyone that only Crazy people would use dog food for rodents, and that red dye #5 will cause renal failure in your reptiles is just not true. And I would think it irresponsible to avoid addressing the subject.
Making an informed decision has nothing to do with a "Good Enough" type attitude.
When someone takes the time and diligence to make an educated choice they are obviously showing that they DO care about the animals they keep. And they do want the best for them.
Paying the highest price for a brand name does not insure better care or quality.
And likewise, getting the cheapest, low grade, run of the mill food (of any type) for your animal is not likely an informed or educated choice. Like I said in the previous post, you have to use your head.
Just sharing some ideas and breaking down an un verifiable and false rumor.

Oh, and by the way, I did agree with your comments on the recalled pet foods. You stated the facts about the brand and varieties of food recalled for salmonella contamination.
Someone else had posted incorrect information about this as well. I was glad to see your post with the correct information.
You will get no arguments form me. I would rather discuss things in a lighthearted and civil manner.
Thanks again,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

Harlin I have no Desire to argue with you any further but you would have to have gone threw it (I guess ) for it to be a painful subject , I have my wife going threw boxes of old papers and file to find the Vet and Lab reports so that I can post them so you will see I am telling the truth and that my claims are not unfounded .so until then . Thanks David of DS Reptile Rescue ,Removal & Rehabilitation

My vet school at my college is doing the majority of the research into the recalls:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/March07/petfoodfda.html

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/March07/PetFoodUpdate.kr.html
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www.GilbertBoas.com

Sorry, that should read "The vet school" since I am not in the vet school itself.
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www.GilbertBoas.com