Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's a large adult male with mahogany sides and cream chaining...a nice example from the Eastern side of South GA.

and while a king in common name only...a nice little male SK

And a word about the "Will Still/Kevin Enge goini/Eastern debate"
The area where Kevin Enge's founder animals originated (west of this one) often exhibit very wide bands and abberant patterns...some even more unusual than what's been produced to date in captivity, so that should be taken into account before questioning the "purity" of the line. You have miles and miles of more typical looking animals between that locale and where you start seeing speckling and interband lightening from goini influence. They are a unique and beautiful locale...South GA is really too broad a description as it's only in two or three counties where the unusual animals are commonplace. I won't mention the exact areas here, but the information was on Keith's site as the locale for the founders. And also I thought I might mention I have no vested interest in those Easterns as I don't own any from that line, It's just a observation from years of flipping tin in those counties and being amazed at the variety of patterns that occur there.

Hope you enjoyed the photos
Horridus

I really enjoyed the photos - thanks! Especially the Eastern and was just wondering if that and the other SK were out in the wild or are they part of your collection. I'm thinking of getting an Eastern King for a pet, as a baby, and sure wouldn't mind a stunning looking snake like that one there. What are the possibilities of obtaining one, and if you breed them can you send me any additional information? Thanks - Jim

These are both animals in the field, I can't breed these species here in GA, but there's a number of guys on here that produce nice Easterns. Peter Jolles at East Coast Colubrids (I think) produces a few different locales of getula. I was impressed with his animals in Daytona. Toby King produces knockouts and of course Will Still and others...didn't meant to leave anyone out.

I'll keep them in mind. I'm also looking forward to the White Plains, NY Show in a couple of weeks and will be focusing on any Eastern Kings that may be available. Jim

Good stuff.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.kingpinreptiles.com

Those S Ga easterns are goini or very heavily bred into goini naturally.

The "goini" ssp will be defunct soon, as well but at the time being they are goini. Don't overthink it, just look at 'em.

Snakes don't read borderlines.

Chris

It's impossible for "goini" (which hasn't been valid for years, but is now designated as meansi, whether you agree with Kenny's description or not) to influence animals over a hundred miles from their known & accepted range. The animals just north of the forest show zero "goini" influence, the animals from ______ & ________ & ________ counties in South central GA are another 125 miles from there. If you have ever been to the forest and seen the animals surrounding the forest you would understand. You get Easterns in Blountstown to the North and and from St. Marks to East. If what you are saying were true you would not find animals that appear to be intergrades in the northeastern part of the forest...then one hundred plus miles of normal appearing textbook getula then more intergrade looking animals. You would find a wide band of intergrades like you do with most other ssp of kings...sometimes animals look alike, but they are not the same thing. Any questions will be answered soon enough via DNA analysis, samples from both locales are in hand.

So, where are the pictures of THOSE snakes?

The ones I saw were goini.

Chris

Well, the question is really if you believe the animals that are referred to as the Enge line are all line bred from locality animals from the counties that Bart is talking about or are they captive crosses that for some reason a group of people started claiming were in fact wild in origin. If you believe that they are CBB from the locality claimed then you would also have to be smart enough to know that there is no Goini influence in that region unless it is from centuries ago. Like before the last water rise that is claimed to cause the "goini" look.

I don't believe Kevin Enge ever benefitted from the "Enge" line more than he has for any other $40 kingsnake he has ever sold. He doesn't sell the "Still" line of wide banded animals that came from his line for $150-250 plus. So he has no reason to lie about the origin of the parents or the breeding that Will Still received his original breeders from. So that leads us to the idea that they are indeed CBB locality animals that are exhibiting pattern morphs that Bart is saying he has seen for years in the area of origin that is claimed by Enge.

So now you have two different third parties saying things that back up locality line breeding in the case of these animals with no possible gain for themselves. I too see what looks like goini influence and when I first saw them that is what I thought, but I also know Kevin Enge and Bart and I have herped in the 3 county region Bart is referring to and I have seen wild animals in the area that do exhibit pattern anomalies. Bart can't even own a eastern king in Georgia legally, so he has no vested interest in the line but he is still putting this out there to educate those of us who can not make it to the area to see for ourselves. He is also a pretty damn smart guy when it comes to herps. So maybe, just maybe it might be beneficial to take a listen to what he is telling you.

By the way Bart that is a nice E. King. I like them with a little more chocolate in the sides though.

Jason

Jason,

I appreciate your comments and compliment. I did just want to point out that it was entirely possible that these animals were not captive produced intergrades or hybrids seeing as how that would make them "less than" in alot of people's eyes...that whole purity thing seems to bother alot of people, although you know I am not one And he was a nice one but not as mahogany/chocolate as they come...like you said they can be much more so. We are in the middle of a cold snap right now but things are going to really pop the next few weeks, so how's about leaving behind the great white north and making a roadtrip? It would be great to get out and see some firsthand don't you think? And on the legality note...there's some changes there for the purposes of the research project...which also makes it easy to get better phtotgraphs if the collection site doesn't allow for it. I hope that DNA results show what I believe to be true rather than some more "craziness" like it did with obsoleta...LOL Once again thank you for the kind words, you have an email message from me regarding a quest that was finally realized last weekend in N. FL.

Horridus

Another stunner! I really love that rich brown color.
Todd Hughes

I particularly like the look of that eastern king. Looks a little different from the typical SW GA varieties. Do you ever see any kings in SE GA that show any Floridana influence? There are supposed to be intergrades present in GA just north of Baker and Nassau counties in Florida.

The animals around St. Marys and Kingsland look like what used to be referred to as Suwannee Kings and are absolutly beautiful. I have never found a live example from those areas but have seen several roadkills that would make you cry. Karl Betz caught a monster that was absolutly stunning, perhaps he's reading this and will post a pic of that snake. It was very similar to the Duval Co. snake that was posted on Kieth's site that I thought was about as pretty a WC king as I have ever seen. That's an area I intend to spend some more time in this year so perhaps I'll get lucky and have some photos to post.

Well, if you find any live examples from those areas I'd definitely like to see some pictures. I'm putting together a website for locale FL kings, and I'd love to get some South Georgia intergrades up there. I'll try sending an email to Karl...

I have found similar looking kings within the intergrade zone in Central Florida.

That's a central FL animal?! That's very similar to some of the ones from Kingsland. They are a bit darker usually. From one area down there I have seen ones that looked like wide banded easterns with patches of speckles inbetween the bands to snakes that were almost as nice as that one. It's a neat area to herp not only for Kings, Pines, Corals, etc., also the Cornsnakes that are found here are right up there with Okeetees in the beauty ranks. If it were legal to collect a couple I am sure you would see people breeding "Coastal GA" Cornsnakes....Of course South GA Kings aren't legal to collect either LOL. Are you working with any that look like the one in the photo?

Here's links to Karl's monster male
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/showfilepage/1350?offset=37
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/showfilepage/1350?offset=37

Well damn, sounds like I need to get up to Kingsland! Southeast Georgia has always seemed more interesting to me than Southwest for some reason.

Yep, Central Florida. I found that one a couple weeks ago. I found this similar, though somewhat darker male back in December. I hope to produce some of these types in the near future, though it will probably be at least next year before I hatch any out.

First: GREAT PICTURES!!

Second: I'm one of the ones that questioned these but its never been to suggest that the crossing was deliberate. Its just that, given geography, the "potential" for some goini influence is undeniable. It's notable that Will himself see this potential and has no problem admitting it, its only really been a single advocate that for some reason needed to insist that the founder stock was genetically pure eastern. From what I gather, Will's line is a pretty well documented locality line, goini influence or no that should be enough.

I don't own any of these and I am not really a big fan of them myself but,... if they are locality animals they are as pure eastern king as you can get south of Atlanta. What is being admitted to is that goini and easterns are getula and they share a common ancestor. If you believe that they are from where they are claimed to be from then you have to have a real bad understanding of the phenotypes in the surrounding area to think this is showing a goini influence. There is none for over 100 miles. Where did it come from?? You don't get that kind of drift without some strong evidence of it all the way through the miles of space between. Please note that I am giving you 50 miles plus of "influence" range outside of the know goini range. Even in the 50 mile area just outside you see very little influence.

This is what Keith was arguing. If his site was available you could have looked for yourself at the snakes people felt were worth showing. Surely speckled and wide banded animals would have been sent in more than a common looking animal. But they were not on his site, why?? Keith put that site together and had a really good understanding of the area even though he didn't visit.

The only argument I see being able to hold water is that Enge lied about the origin of Will's animals. The problem is Enge has no reason to, and that is the best counter-argument. In fact claiming Georgia means he may need to prove they are legal, so why would he go that route?????

Jason

I would say that the lack of intermediates between this population and goini’s CURRENT range is not indicative of anything. If I read your post correctly you seem to indicate that the population is somewhat unique and distinct from surrounding pops. If this is the case there MUST be something about the habitat that selects for this particular phenotype while surrounding areas do not.

Now if you can explain to me how you KNOW that this particular phenotype is the result of selection from stock absent of goini influence and not simple persistence of historical goini influence I’m all ears.

Well I guess I go with the idea that the "Goini" look is the result of isolation. Not that it was a wide spread animal ever, which is what you are trying to say. We obviously have no idea what the snakes looked like thousands of years ago, but I thought it was sort of accepted that the eastern look was and is more prevalent and dominate look and the goini look is the result of island isolation. So what am I trying to explain to you??? That in the getula genetic make up there is the possibility to have animals that look like this?? That seems a bit apparent with the existence of goini.

By saying you see goini in this line of animals, you are inferring that there was a recent goini in the history of the animal. I don't believe that. The look is not the same as goini. The possibility that the expression of a phenotypic look came out of founder stock of a particular animal is not that surprising.

Again, it is either that Enge is lying for no reason or the animals are locality line bred for the wide banded look. The fact that there are many different looking kings in the area of the founder stock supports this. These animals are to far from the isolated population to have phenotypic drift explain the look. If that was the answer then there would be others between. Now if you are trying to say that they share a common ancestor and that is why they look the way they do. Well that is obvious, but is different than recent past.

I guess it comes down to this. What I am getting from you and others that share your view is that the "goini" phenotype was once in this area and I don't see that. There is no evidence to support that. The accepted origin of goini is from island isolation far to the south of this population. The outerbanks kings are also different looking and some attribute that to florida king influence??? These kings are all from common ancestors so having isolated populations show "other" looks is not surprising but I don't think it indicates a visit from another sub in any recent passed. There are many possible looks in any snake including albino, but most get "chosen" against by nature. We come in and pick them up and don't allow nature to do its thing.

Jason

ALL I'M SAYING IS GIONI INFLUENCE IS PLAUSABLE.

I can't, but some light should be shed on this as the Lawson study continues. I don't understand why "goini" is the relict population responsible for the look found in said counties...why not floridana? or holbrooki...they are almost as close as a "pure" goini is? Because they don't "look" like what we expect? I know a guy who had two perfectly striped getula hatch from a WC SGA female...were there california genes at work? Why couldn't the same evolutionary process that created the Suwannee look, the goini/meansi appearance and the sticticeps for that matter be at work here seperate from each other. Because there's been some patternless/striped sticticeps produced from Bartlett's line does that mean there's a goini too somewhere in the history of those animals??...Until those animals pipped I dare say no one would have believed animals so different from your typical wild sticticeps could in just a few generations take on an entirely different appearance. Where's the "disbelief" there....am I saying that I know what Kevin did in his collection....no, but I am saying that years of finding these guys in the areas where his breeders were taken from have clearly shown me that anything's possible there....I WISH I would have had the foresight to have photographed the animal with 9 bands that were almost 2.5 inches wide, or the one with the perfect SUBOCULARIS pattern I found there...yes, striped and banded...more yellow than black actually. But I didn't....so I guess it's just this man's opinion and we know everyone has one and I am quite certain mine stink too.

Bart a guy that still reads here but rarely post could possible have some photos of some really wide banded chocolate and cream easterns. I had went out with him several times and we had ran across quite a few of them and i remember he had taken photos of them also. His user name here is Flintdiver maybe if he reads it he will post a few pictures. Some of them were very wide banded and as I said they were chocolate and cream. Outstanding looking animals.
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

The people should not fear thier government,
Their government should fear the people.

Bart and Toby, I read this forum regularly. Toby, I can try and locate some WC pics. It'll be tough, I have moved several times since my days of tin fliiping. Bart, I do have pics and hatched eggs from a gravid WC Duval Co. Fl, king, 1992, remember that "billboard " king. I'll see what I can dig up !

Yes I do....the widow's peak king. I flipped those boards till they fell apart and never found anything! LOL Nice to see you are still around, I'd love to see the photos.

Bart, That last pic you posted , nice ! I found one just like it right here outside of metro Atlanta. Choclate , cream wide bands, and a hunker 4.5 '. Toby, you know where I found that one, I think. Meriwether County. All the rest from that spot looked like your typical metro ATL kings. It's the only one I have seen like it North of Macon. Just goes to show , atypical (for the area)looking kings can show up anywhere.

Thinking back on some of the kings I have seen and found makes me wish I had carried a camera more often. though I did take alot of pictures but they were all turned in when they were doing that Georgia herp atlas thing. Almost makes me want to get back out there some more (for photography purposes only)

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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

The people should not fear thier government,
Their government should fear the people.

That one (billboard) was one of the main ones I was thinking about. Also the ones that came from farther north east.
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

The people should not fear thier government,
Their government should fear the people.

Oh and by the way its good to see you still around. Give me a call sometime, get together and do something.
Later
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

The people should not fear thier government,
Their government should fear the people.

" know a guy who had two perfectly striped getula hatch from a WC SGA female...were there california genes at work?"

Given goini can be striped as too and geography makes California isn't this like a non point? Also Holbrooki is close to but this population doens't look like Holbrooki it looks like goini.

Again given geography AND phenotype some historic influence form goini is possible. Lets look at this.

Holbrooki - geography / yes phenotype / no

California- geography / no phenotype / yes

Florida - geography / maybe phenotype / no

goini - geography / YES phenotype / YES

Now given this simple chart which one do you think is worth discussing.

>>Holbrooki - geography / yes phenotype / no
You are referring to the animals that were posted here, I am making mention that there's more to this locale that what's been seen here, speckling is one of the "abberant" things you frequently see in this area....

>>California- geography / no phenotype / yes

The striping that was exhibited by these animals was not "goini type" striping, regardless, the mention of those animals was merely to point out that just because something looks like something does not mean that it is related by genetic swapping.

>>Florida - geography / maybe phenotype / no
Actually, alot of "goini" are identical to hatchling Eastern X Florida kings. At least the narrow banded/wide banded/and oval blotched types are. I have seen several clutches of "goini" x Eastern King and the results weren't animals that looked like what Will got. Not saying they can't be, but they weren't in those clutches.

>>goini - geography / YES phenotype / YES
The animals from this locale in question are well over 100 miles away from goini. So geography NO. That's where I think some of the confusion is here...the orginal WC animals were not from Southwest GA, they were from South Central GA, SW GA getula are pretty typical in my experience, 1-3 scale wide bands with little to no "chaining" at the ventrals. But even in SW GA you still have quite a ways to travel until you start seeing the intergrade animals in Blountstown or Telogia...and even THERE, they are almost identical to getula! It just doesn't make sense, perhaps I just can't grasp it but I don't know of any other snake that has influence over the appearance of another subspecies of snake anywhere but along the border of where the animals meet in the wild. And goini does...all along the Northern border of their range (the forest) there are goini x getula intergrades...and then getula, and more getula. Sometimes some speckled ones, sometimes some "blotched" ones but getula nonetheless.

I didn't want this to turn out the way it has, I was just mentioning some personal experience I have with this particular locale of Kings. I've been finding them for years. And that's my opinion on the matter from what the animals have taught me. There's some old hostility (not directed at me, and I hope you don't think I am directing any at you) here that seems to be rearing it's head again. So I most likely won't continue to argue my original point any further. There's no problem with agreeing to disagree about such matters as we obviously do. You have presented a good case for what you believe to be true, I just see it differently. I hope that the samples I have taken shed some light on the relationships between getula in South Georgia/North Florida....but chances are it will only result in more questions.

"There's some old hostility (not directed at me, and I hope you don't think I am directing any at you) here that seems to be rearing it's head again. "

Nope didn't think so! I've always enjoyed your posts even if I don't agree with 100% of what you post. Actually I learn very little from aggreement. Discussing differing views is way more fruitful.

Several year back I received a female S. GA eastern from Enge he coined "eastern Bumblebee king". The following year he had an adult male for the neonate female I purchased the previous year. This male was not as eastern looking as the one I purchased from Kevin the previous year so I asked him about it and he said it was 3/4 eastern and 1/4 goini. It was the only male he had to offer me that year as all his eggs went bad. He said it will produce the SAME thing I got from him the previous year (that was sold to me as S. GA locale). He said the 1/4 goini 3/4 eastern will produce the "bumblebee".

The bumblebee easterns were the S. GA easterns he had on his table during 1996-98. These animals look exactly like the line I have seen pictured here on this forum over and over that all trace back to Enge stock.

I don't think Enge set out to lie and make a killing on these animals when he started breeding themm. He had them marked for $10-$20. on his table with the majorty of the nice ones actaully selling for $15. When he did breed the initial goini to S GA locales animals he improved the look of the already wide banded animals he knew existed in nature. Back then nobody cared about easterns and there was zero interest in locale specific easterns. Enge also had a knowledge of the areas that easterns with wide bands came from and was the "go to" source for a few people that all of a sudden took an interest in locales in 2001-2002. The rest is pretty simple to figure out.
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I don't need no spell chack.

I purchased my original F1 breeders from Kevin Enge at the 1998 NRBE. I paid $100.00 for the pair. He had the parents on hand under the table at the show which he gladly showed me. They were very large adult dark brown and cream/yellow easterns. They clearly were not goini. He detailed the origin of his adults to me. They were eastern kings that he had collected himself from Tift and Echols Counties. I believe him now as I did then.

Will Still

Will,

The pics you show are the exact same animals I got from him that he said was s. Ga locale as well. I beleived him as well.

It was the following year that he did not have any neonates avliable he offered me a male that was 3/4 eastern and 1/4 goini. At first he said he had a male adult for me and after I saw it and asked him why it looked more wide banded he said it was 3/4 eastern and 1/4 goini. He said by watering down the goini it will produce the nice looking yellow/ornage banded bumblebees he marketed at that time.

Beleive what you want. I have nothing against you, Enge and nor have I ever produced any of these easterns from kevin. I have never had a stake in this. I only bred the female to a male hypo brooks.

Its and old pic but this is a pic of the eastern I got from enge that he said was had goini in it. This snake has long since passed away:

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I don't need no spell chack.

Rainer I think that its unfair to bring up that Enge did some crossing too. We gave Gulf Coast a pass on that, Kevin deserves the same. IMHO its completely possible that somebody can work with both pure and crossed lines.

Rainer I think that its unfair to bring up that Enge did some crossing too. We gave Gulf Coast a pass on that, Kevin deserves the same. IMHO its completely possible that somebody can work with both pure and crossed lines

Yes I agree and I think that is exactly what happened. He has both pure and outcrossed lines. I always said that from the beginning. I am not out to ruin anyones rep. This all happened a long time ago and after Kevin saw the interest I am sure he started selling pure lines. .

I like Kevin to. I don't have a problem with anything he did. It just that others are posting his line and stating these are pure. Now some do look pure, while others are just off the chart results from the 1/4 goini being bred into thate eastern and then those babies being raised up throwing the super wide banded orange stuff. I have been doing hybrids for a long time and one thing is the F1 gen never looks good (ie first gen 1/4 goini eastern bred to a south Ga locale will produce nominal looking babies) then breed those babies back together and you get the WILD stuff. I have seen this over and over working with hybrid mutations. The first gen are dogs and the second gen the real wild stuff come out. Doesn't matter the eastern from Ga only has 1/6th goini in it. It will show up when siblings are bred together. And I might add, in a most remarkable way. Beautiful animals!
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I don't need no spell chack.

As always Bart....Excellent pictures!!
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

The people should not fear thier government,
Their government should fear the people.