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The area where Kevin Enge's animals were found is actually closer to the Florida King's range than "goini". You used to be able to find FL Kings in Payne's Prairie for example and farther north. I've also heard of Kings with alot of speckling that were found in Osceola NF, much, much closer to where Enge's animals were found.

I'm just going to say GREAT PICTURES! LOL

If memory serves, my answer would be no but I'm open to a refresher as I don't even recall the counties involve. Wasn't the founding population somewhat north north west of gioni range?

I believe the male was from Statenville, GA and the female was from Tift Co., GA. Both areas much closer to that of the Florida King's range.

Looking at the maps I don’t think so Sean. Tift is pretty well removed form the range of the Florida king and Echols seems to sit squarely between Alachua and Leon Counties. You may know the area better so I’ll confer but the phenotype we’re questioning is decidedly goini like so again it comes to the confluence of geography AND phenotype that makes me think that if there is some historical influence its from goini rather than Florida kings. Note: I’m not saying definite, not saying anyone lied, I’m just expressing my view.

And next time, I won't have any additional notes below them and I will say "Thank you" LOL my GOD....sorry for opening my mouth! LOLOL

Bart,

Did you ever see the pics of the aberrant Florida Kings I hatched out several years ago from a WC gravid female? If not, I'll post the pics later when I get home.

Yes I did, but post them anyway. Those were some great looking Floridas....really unusual. Email me results of Ice Snakeing this weekend LOL

Didn't make it to Georgia but had some fun in the ANF on Saturday.

Oh man... I want the story on that!

Hi Sean!
Hi Jason!
Hi Keith!

Long time no see.
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I don't need no spell chack.

Rainer, down below you state that one, you have a male from the original line or at least had and two, know how the line was "created". So why don't you shut us all up by doing it with the 1/6th goini cross you think it is. Go ahead and post each gen. for us all to see and then in a few years when you have these killer wide banded kings you can cut in on the market and make all that money.

It would be fun to see you put your time and cage space to the test and either shut us all up or not post anything and we would all know the answer. You have been doing crosses for years and have even admitted to selling crosses and hets as normals so why haven't you produced any of these yet??

By the way it has been almost 10 post with out a picture of a gun in one of your post... you don't want to break your pattern.

Jason

ike I said its funny how you all show up at the same time.
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I don't need no spell chack.

I just happened to stop by for the first time in weeks. I have pretty much stayed away from this forum because of all this ignorance. But like I said this has been going on for a couple years and you could put it to rest in a couple more if you wanted to breed it out like you said. You probably have it half started with just the normal crosses you always seem to be doing

Jason

Jason you are misinformed.

My collection consist of merely 5% hybrids, The rest I have are brooks kings and a few other milks and kings.

Besides, so what if i chose to raise hairless weavles? whats that to you and what does that have to do with me? Seems to me you are insinuating something.

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I don't need no spell chack.

It took me a sec to get the "insinuating" thing, but in all honesty I wasn't. Your states laws are stupid and I actually forgot that you are in Georgia. There is plenty I could insinuate but I don't agree with the crap you have to face because of where you live.

But if you did know someone who did breed the necessary animals for this cross that you think is responsible, it would be neat to check it out.

Best of luck to you for this upcoming season.

Jason

Seem to pick at this locality week after week...

Yet, the info Bart shared with us the other day should be enough to leave the topic alone for at least a little while LOL...

Who cares what genetics are in them?

To me they are Eastern Kings.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.kingpinreptiles.com

Throughout ALL the ranges of ALL the ssp. (I think)there are chances of this happening.
Now if you were to collect those that look different (as Kevin did), don't you think you'd be able to keep this trait going or even refine it??
Sean I used a pic of your snake here.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Thanks for posting the pic Mark. That king is looking great!

photos of ant of those strange ones from that litter as subadults/adults I bet they really look interesting now.

Thanks for posting.

That snake resides in the private collection of a friend of mine. I actually took the picture in Crimsonking's post. That snake was measured at roughly 40" at the time that picture was taken. Here's a picture I took of that snake the year before, it was maybe 30" at the time:

And with one of her normal siblings:

A solid black belly and all that orange as an adult! Wow....hope he is sucessful in reproducing that look. That's something else, looking at the head of the animal in the first photo it's a little more clear that's not a hatchling, at first glance I thought for sure it was no larger than a yearling. Unreal.

well ive said before its my opinion goini IS lgg and ive also said i beleive its floridana influencing them Ga. peaches for what its worth as a "lumper" thats my take... regardless they are fantastic looking getula that have "the splitters" at odds with what to call them for whatever reason, this same thing happened with nitida,conjuncta,yumensis and californiae out west for whatever reason east coast splitters are holding onto the individual ssp. instead of accepting varieability within locales as just that, naturally occuring pattern varieability within the one or two ssp. not 5 or 6 ssp. completely disjunct of one another,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Funny, I concider myself a lumper but I've been so absorbed in these conversations that I forget that its both easier and more interesting to see them as a whole. Great post!

Thomas, a couple years ago you steadfastly questioned common name of a locality red/eastern milk due to COLOR. I am proud that you have come so far. Some things arent worth arguing,lol.Jeff

you to jeff.......
Thomas, a couple years ago you steadfastly questioned common name of a locality red/eastern milk due to COLOR. I am proud that you have come so far. Some things arent worth arguing,lol.Jeff

no jeff i questioned selling an eastern milk as a red milk because of locale to someone who did not understand the differance in triangulum and syspila ssp. ,basically selling them an average looking eastern as a red for the market value of a red 50bux-vs-200bux or some such nonsense i beleive every single person who saw the picture said its just an average looking eastern anyway quite frankly very much like the subject at hand Ga. easterns or imho wide orange banded Ga. getula should be acknowledged as a variant of lgg they are beautiful animals ive never argued that point, what ive argued is a "splitter" that says they are "pure" based on a county line the terminology KILLS ME its quite obvious to me or anyone familiar with getula how varieable locales are its also common knowledge to see and find melting pots of ssp whos range overlap in this case its lgg and lg.fla. as i dont buy the goini,apalachicola,meansi,blotched king as anything but VARIANTS of lgg now l.g.fla. thats a valid imho ssp of getula(ahh but whats the definition of true lgf???and what was/is its range???), in the western getula it(ssp.name mania) was stopped at californiae and nigritus and splendida why it hasnt been out east is strange time will tell i see there trying to lump corns in the pituophis group now so whos to say what the future of herpetological nomenclature shall bring us as far as labels,,,,,,,,thomas

no jeff i questioned selling an eastern milk as a red milk because of locale to someone who did not understand the differance in triangulum and syspila ssp. ,basically selling them an average looking eastern as a red for the market value of a red 50bux-vs-200bux or some such nonsense i beleive every single person who saw the picture said its just an average looking eastern anyway quite frankly very much like the subject at hand

Thomas, the difference between 50 and 70 isnt much. For a EXACT locality milk caught by a RED milk expert(Kirk)and sold to me by a expert milk breeder(shannon) a common name doesnt hold much use. I sent pics of the snake(before being traded) and you and others hashed it as if someone had something to gain by it(ME???). You now stand on EXACTLY the opposite side of the arguement pissing into the wind again(sort to speak). I suggest that YOU didnt know much about triangulum or syspila OF THAT LOCALE,and neither did anyone else siding with your response. Intergration happens, as the bumper sticker should say. Purity is an arguement for fools, integrity should be alot more prized. The bunch of us have alot in common on these forums and we can lose the ability to commisurate with colleagues for such pettiness. Keith and others have alot to offer all of us, respect fact more than opinion and you will have more friends.Jeff

wow ok jeff uhh thanks, i guess... heres a few pics to show off lot happening this year,,,,thomas davis

like the subject at hand Ga. easterns or imho wide orange banded Ga. getula should be acknowledged as a variant of lgg they are beautiful animals ive never argued that point, what ive argued is a "splitter" that says they are "pure" based on a county line the terminology KILLS ME its quite obvious to me or anyone familiar with getula how varieable locales are its also common knowledge to see and find melting pots of ssp whos range overlap in this case its lgg and lg.fla.

Umm??? So you are saying that they are pure then?? They are all Lgg which is what has been said. If you know the area then it would be laughable to think that there is some overlap. There isn't any overlap. Show me a field guide that even hints at that possibility and I will talk to the author and see if I can get you a better range map.

If you want a person experienced with the area to give you a opinion then you shouldn't look much further than Bart. He gave his view below and he has been hunting that area for something close to 20 years. Or we can take the opinions of guys who looked at a book or two and have a couple kings in a Rubbermaid.

If and when you want to learn something new on any given subject, the only way to do that is by gaining knowledge from somebody with more knowledge than you. On this subject there are a couple guys with more knowledge than most of us, that have offered up their opinions over the years. (Not me by any means) There is little doubt that if the animals have been line bred from wc animals as claimed, then these animals are pure and exhibiting acceptable variance of the getula spp. No Floridana or meansi/goini needed here to explain the look.

So tell me, any of you who think these are not pure, where is the line of pure animals then??? Please tell me so I can go out and get a pure eastern king. Talk about laughable, according to you guys the only pure easterns would have to be in Delaware and New Jersey. Every other state has some variance recorded in it. So where is the line???

Jason

the way you throw the "P""pure"word out there. certainly they are "pure getula" to say a locale exhibits traits from 2 defined ssp. that overlap certainly does not make those animals "not pure"!hello? thats what locale breeding is all about!?! its very evident these Ga.peaches have something going on color,band size,etc. imho its remnants of lgf others have stated that its goini, what i find funny are "splitters" insisting on distinct differances in the ssp.groups of getula as if they are and always have been disjunct of one another individual species if you will based on county lines no less imho its silly nonsense, no one will ever no how the current taxa of getula ssp. came to be or what science will choose to call them in the future and frankly i dont careive kept all the forms of getula from east to west over 25years in the hobby and i beleive i have a good idea of whats up from down with getula.and imho marketing,selling whatever you wanna call it these Ga.getula as PURE lgg only adds to the confusion on taxa but hey whatever as i tell anyone looking to start a breeding project get as much info that you trust as you can on your founding stock especially when dealing with a particular ssp. that ranges over several states as the variances from one end of range can be completely different than the other end sometimes those differances can be seen from county to county esp. in a melting pot like Ga. and i beleive it responsible for breeders of such animals to be truthful and honest in all stock info.some however claim "purity" because of a county line which is tried to and eventually conveyed into MO'MONEY! of course from this context i feel its irresponsible and misleading to everyone but especially newbies but hey whatever because really when youve seen/had as many getula as i have its pretty evident visually what/where it was derived from,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

IMHO whether thes wide banded/abberrant Georgia getula are a natural variant of L. g. g. or whether they represent a relict intergrade that is now swamped on all sides is irrelavant.

Since there is no goini or floridana intergrading with them today there is no way you can "make" these by intergrading them in captivity. To say you can is only trying to equate a manmade cross with a natural locality variant. Personally I see anybody who tries to equate captive crosses with natural locality variants as the ones who are trying to "cash in" on locality.

If somebody is upset that locality snakes sell better (BTW they usually don't sell any better than nice generics or even any better than nice crosses) just buy some locality snakes. Just don't try to justify (why would you need to) you're crosses by saying they are the same because they're not.

Anyway those are my thoughts and I'm not speaking directly to you, just to anybody.

No worries man. I don't have any of these and I prefer thin banded, partial banded and chocolate sided easterns to the wide banded line. All of which can be found in this same area. Well the chocolates not so much but the thin banded and abberants yes. I have a thin banded pair breeding less than 10 feet away right now. They area also locality kings from a couple counties north of where the wide banded came from. Just hope I don't get any speckled kings or I will get guys saying I crossed with Holbrooki.

Really I love them all.

Jason

She is getting some right now

Wow very nice snake there.

You know this debate has been going on forever (at least it seems to me) and I never understood why so much attention is given to these eastern kings except there are are a few people who live around the area and one persons picture site. I think there are a lot more interesting kings in the US that deserve this kind of attention.
Personally I find the western kings a whole lot more interesting than a snake that just blends with everything here in the south. Out west you have different life zones and there is so much more to discuss about those kings. I wonder how many people on this forum have field collected an L.A. county california kingsnake or flipped a mountain king in a granite rock outcropping in the spring... The fact you have to wait until 11 am for the snakes to warm up enough to come to the surface. How neat it is to find snakes in something besides unatural cover? I could go on and I wish somebody shared my interest in discussing something besides eastern kings and how they blend (or may not blend) with other kings..

Sorry I guess I am just bored.

I think I have just heard enough about easterns to last me the next 10 years, Thanks.
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I don't need no spell chack.

LOL don't worry people will still buy your mutations first.

Maybe after a few months of looking they might buy a boring old eastern, but not until they have 2 peanut butter, one jelly and one peanut butter and banana king from you. LOL

At the end of the day the Eastern King is still the king of kings. If you don't believe me just look at Kauffeld's books, all he talks about for kings is finding easterns...

How's this Rainer?? Only pyro I know of from this locale in captivity.

Posted by: Snakesunlimited1

LOL don't worry people will still buy your mutations first.

Why are you LOL'ing? Are you so forgetful that I just posted a reply to the same statement you made yesterday?

here it is again. I will repeat it for you everytime you post it because of your selective memory:
MY COLLECTION ONLY CONSISTS OF 5% HYBRIDS. The rest is florida kings. kings, milks and a few locality specific rosys.

Maybe after a few months of looking they might buy a boring old eastern, but not until they have 2 peanut butter, one jelly and one peanut butter and banana king from you. LOL

How many times will you post the same misrepresentations.. I did'nt even name those snakes . The forum members here did. I asked for a poll and everyone thought Peanut butter was good name because the hypo term was already taken. I didn't even suggested the name Peanut butter. Soemeone esle came up with it and everybody liked it. That name was derived from a strictly democractic process here on this board. Now it turns out you are a bit late.

You also ASsume I am in this for the money when in fact I am not. Do you know what I do? I breed new combined reccessive traits instead of going for the pretty old morphs I could breed and get more money for. PEOPLE DON"T BUY DOUBLE HETS. I do this for myself. This year I am wasting totally new reccessive traits to do what??? TO produce double hets. Do you have any idea what DH's sell for?? No I guess not. Let me tell you- NOT MUCH!ha ah ha ha!

Ummm..Try pioneering some things (anything) instead of repeating everything you hear and do like your good ol' friend BJakaKHaka..(I guess he will come back as a chinese female next)LOL!.

At the end of the day the Eastern King is still the king of kings. If you don't believe me just look at Kauffeld's books, all he talks about for kings is finding easterns...

Oh ya thats some good logic..I grew up on Kaufelds books. He was a good writer and an alcholic. He fed bullsnakes chicken eggs and thought subocs were rare. Try reading Brian Hubbs book on Mountain kings if you want to read a better book. Or better yet get the new one he has coming out on kings of the US. Its about 60 years older than Kaufelds books and will give you a better ecology of snakes. Or you could just go look for snakes at the Okeetee hunt club.
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I don't need no spell chack.

First time I said any of that. But I guess if you pretend that it is something that is being repeated it seems like I am making it up and trying to push it. Now here is a idea, why don't you go and read your good buddy Hubbs' book. I am sure it has a definition for mutations in it for you... Actually I just checked and it doesn't. (yeah I got a copy, and I saw your name in the acknowledgments, wow that is why you always push it) So anyway let me try to clear it up for you.

Peanut Butter=mutation
Jelly=mutation
hypo=mutation
albino=mutation
het or double het for any of these=mutation

So 5% mutations is a little off. Those 5% you have are called crosses or hybrids. I know it is a lot of info to soak in for you, so take it slow. Baby steps.

Now I was LOLing(WTF??) because it is all a big joke. I was actually pointing out how much smarter you are than me(at least business wise). You will sell your stock of animals long before I sell out of my easterns. In fact I still have some from last year sitting around. And I also bet your double het sell for more than my easterns. Wait for it,$40 is my big windfall. So without even trying you make more than me. Yeah!!

In the end I really don't care all that much, it is just annoying to see people try to mislead the people who don't know all the facts. Talk about repeating yourself. We have all heard that story about the bumble bee kings at least once before but you keep bringing it up. You were buying a morph line and that is what you got. It just happened to be crosses that were used to make it. Will bought a different line. Or are people not allowed to have more than one line of easterns in Rainer's world.

Seriously though, I don't care at all what you do. Don't bring bad press on the hobby and rock on. We have mucho in common. I like guns, not as much as you, but I like them. We both like snakes obviously. We both like MMA and both know a few too many arm bars and choke out maneuvers because of it. In all reality we would probably get along if we didn't know who each other was... maybe. When it comes to this forum you just have a habit of saying stupid things. Like "Ship USPS, I do" or "You don't need a foam lined box, they are too big and get beat up. Use a cracker box and a padded envelope"

Ohhh, You know I almost didn't put that last bit in ... but you are a ... wait don't want to give the mods a reason to delete this post. I know those are just paraphrased statements but if you want I can find the originals. LOL

Jason

Hey Jason,

I am not bringing bad press to the hobby. You are. I state the facts and people like you can't handle it. So you try to manipulate it. Its actaully quite an anceint human tendency. Get over yourself and well all get along a little better. Actually we all should..
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I don't need no spell chack.

Check up above, I will post some western stuff from the last couple years.

come'on rainer theres alot of different life zones for eastern ssp.thus the debate on lgg variants as well as natural ground cover,well maybe not so much also this same thing happened out west with nitida,conjuncta,yumensis,californiae,etc...remember?
i think you feel this way because of the retarded law in your state that says you cannot own lgg natives, i feel your pain bro ;( but you know as well as anyone that knows the getula group lgg are the top of the mountain,,,,,,,,thomas davis

I wouldn't mind tagging along on a trip with some friends to have some fun. But not like I used to do (and still do) out west. If I want to go into the field and see snakes I buy a ticket and get on a plane.

Going out into the feild has nothing to do whether I can keep certain species or not.
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I don't need no spell chack.