Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, I'm relatively new to snakes. I've had a ball python for 3 years, and I've had an 06 corn and an 06 WS black rat for about 6 months. I also have an green anole that drove me nuts trying to keep him happy because of all the conflicting information (or lack of) on anole care.

Well, mostly because of the anole's preference for a naturalistic setup, I've started looking into naturalistic setups for my three snakes. By naturalistic I mean looking as if it were a piece of their environment, preferably from where they actually came from.

I have to admit, one of the reasons I crave this is because I cannot get more snakes, however much I want to, due to the fact that my future is uncertain (mainly where I will live and how far I will have to move). To help resist the urge, I am trying to make the most of the setups that I do have.

Apparently, such naturalistic setups are incredibly hard to achieve without expensive equipment, tedious maintenance, OR endangering the snake's health. I can't find information on such (successful) setups anywhere. I've heard in many different places that the Europeans tend to do exactly what I'm looking for, but I can't find enough pictures of European setups or any adequate instructions for building one. That is, I can find some, but none of them are for ball pythons or elaphe, and rarely for snakes of any kind. They are mostly for arboreal or amphibian setups where extremely high humidity is not an issue but something to strive for. Perhaps there is information available, but it is all in a foreign language?

If any of you could point me to a place I can find some good pictures of such setups, or information for building one, I would greatly appreciate it. I've purchased and read "The Art of Keeping Snakes," but it is just not detailed enough. It just gives hints about how the Europeans have already been successfully doing this for years and makes me want to find this wealth of information even more so.

Honestly, I'm beginning to think this is only a dream and will never be realized until I have plenty of money to throw at this. Still, it's worth a shot, if anyone here knows something. Sorry for the length of this post, and thanks for reading this.

Apparently, such naturalistic setups are incredibly hard to achieve without expensive equipment, tedious maintenance, OR endangering the snake's health.

Typical American viewpoint, often said by people with no direct experience with both techniques. Naturalistic vivaria are more expensive but the maintenance is often reduced and it hardly endangers the snakes health.

I can't find information on such (successful) setups anywhere. I've heard in many different places that the Europeans tend to do exactly what I'm looking for, but I can't find enough pictures of European setups or any adequate instructions for building one... Perhaps there is information available, but it is all in a foreign language?

First thing you should do is get Philippe de Vosjoli's book "The Art of Keeping Snakes".

Next, continue to search European sites through Google and use their translator when available. For your searches use terms like Elapha and Terrarium. Once you start finding good sites figure out how they spell terrarium in the the different languagues and use that for your search term. You can also figure out how they spell snake in that languague but since scientific names are universal (once everyone agrees) that's really not necessary.

Good languagues to search under are Dutch, Czech and German.

One final point. If you have a picture in your head of the modular European cages made from aluminum tubing and connectors, these components are available in the US and some companies do use them for cages. You can bring this topic over to the caging forum if you like.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Malaysian locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

The Art of Keeping Snakes.

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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Malaysian locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

I agree, check out some of the European sites. They seem to excell at the naturalistic vivaria. I also frequent a site that has mostly european posters and their set ups are great to just sit and look at for hours!!

and that sight is?

Hi, thanks for your suggestions.

"First thing you should do is get Philippe de Vosjoli's book"

As I think I said in my post, I already own a copy of "The Art of Keeping Snakes". I love that book, but it is just not detailed enough. He goes into great detail on the BSS substrate, but this his invention. While I believe everything he says, I am still hesitant to risk that substrate with my snakes. I know eventually I will try it, but I guess I have been bombarded with too many precautions on high humidity and skin disease and all that.

I am also not so sure about it since it's not really what the snakes experience in the wild. Take black rat snakes, for instance. They spend most of their time in contact with tree bark, ground plants, or leaf litter, all of which I presume is not usually as damp as the soil. De Vosjoli advises against leaf litter and the like unless the snakes live in it in the wild, which is not quite true of black rats (I think they just travel over it). I can't really find good information about the habits of corn snakes in the wild, but I would presume they would similarly not be in contact with moist soil most of the time.

Basically, his ideas are great, but I would still like to see what's been used successfully by many people and that has stood the test of time (namely, the European setups). I also need more detail on all the other aspects of a naturalistic vivarium, namely species-specific humidity and temperature, more on hides and shelters, how to stably and realistically position branches, and how to maintain all the furniture without frying the wood all the time.

"Once you start finding good sites figure out how they spell terrarium in the the different languagues and use that for your search term."

That's a great idea, thanks. In fact, next time I'm on a web search, I will just translate "terrarium" and "snake" with an on-line translator and paste that into the search. Thanks for giving me specific languages to work with. I've already killed many hours searching for the European sites, but maybe the translation thing will be more successful.

By the way, you seem to have some experience with this. Do you know of any sites off the top of your head I could start with?

"One final point. If you have a picture in your head of the modular European cages made from aluminum tubing and connectors, these components are available in the US and some companies do use them for cages. You can bring this topic over to the caging forum if you like."

Actually, no, I have no picture in my head, but it sounds good already. I wouldn't even know how to phrase it in the caging forum, as I really have no idea what you're referring to. I realize this is a bit off topic, but could you clarify what you mean?

Well, thanks for your time and help,

Oleg

Sorry for missing your reference to Philippe's book - bad headache. I'm glad you've read it.

I think you're going to have to just set up a large cage and start to experiment, perhaps setting up zones. Have one side of the cage be moist and support most of the bioactive layer and have the other side be a bit dryer. And there is no rule saying that a naturalistic cage HAS to use a bioactive substrate. You can still use plants in pots and have those areas be moist while the rest of the substrate is more dry. This is how I got started in this many years ago.

And yes, I did dabble with this in the past. I worked for a guy who was a contact of Philippe's and he was experimenting with it years ago. I did some of it on my own. I don't think we ever achieved the full bioactivity but we certainly reduced maintenance in some cages. Sorry, we did not keep any ratsnakes or ball pythons.

Most of my searches are for Gonyosoma, which is a very popular snake to keep in naturalistic cages. And they certainly don't have the humidity or moisture concerns that you've mentioned. I usually start with Gonyosoma and Terrarium which almost immediately takes me to European sites. From there I just copy and paste words that look appropriate and keep googling.

I'm mostly looking for pictures so I don't really keep track of the sites. I'm just looking for inspiration.

If you're looking for specific information I think you may be out of luck. Again, I think you need to just dive in head first and try it, with the understanding that you don't have to have the bioactivity. You can still setup and elaborate planted display that both you and your snake will enjoy.

This is what I mean by a European cage. This look is very common on the European sites. The components are available in the US.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Malaysian locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Yes, I think I'll go ahead and experiment with zones as you suggested until I find more info. I can start by plopping a potted plant in loose soil and see if the rat snake spends much time in it or whatnot. Thanks for all your advise on searching, I'll definitely do that next time I have a few hours to surf. And I'll print out the picture you linked to and see if a hardware store can help me out. I'll take it to the caging forum, too, if I have more questions. Thanks for all your advice!

I highly doubt that you'll find those components at a hardware store. A local metal shop specializing in aluminum extrusions is a much better choice.

There is also the internet. Email me if you are interested and I'll dig up the links. Expensive stuff so you really need to want that look or have some other justification for it.

Here is an interesting video of a German (I think) frog keeper. This is what I picture in my head when I picture the typical European cage.

I guess European ratsnake keepers use these same systems but build HUGE walk in cages.

I gather this is the main reason why they use these components. It allows them to build cages that could not otherwise be moved into the typical home or room, epsecially some of the typical post world war European homes.

It's just a modular system that can be put up or taken down, albeit with more work than you'd expect. Otherwise, I don't see a huge advantage.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Malaysian locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/inhalt/15/0,4070,3918191-0,00.html
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Malaysian locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

No, I can't spend much money on the cages. Unfortunately, portability is a huge bonus for me, since I might move a lot in the near future. This gives me a lot of ideas, though, and maybe I'll come up with my own lightweight and "disassembleable" caging. It maybe not be as good looking as that, but hopefully the display inside will be all that's noticed.

One way that I was thinking about before are those chameleon cages build of basically window screen frames screwed together. If I can come up with panels that screw together like that, but instead of screen somehow permanently attach thin but sturdy sheets of hard plastic, a glass piece, and/or screening as needed, I would have a lightweight, modular setup, "some screwing required."

I also have ideas about building a lightweight metal or plastic frame (or buying it as a used furniture frame or something or other), and making a removable wire screening (like Sighthunter used) cover of sorts that I could just put on and remove. Sort of like the Reptariums. I dunno, it's still a thought in progress. I guess if nothing else works, the Reptariums should provide more than enough room with all the portability and cheapness needed - if I put enough lighting on them, maybe I'll be able to see what's inside . Luckily, I have a couple years before the rat snake would benefit from such a large cage. Right now, the regular glass terrariums do great.

I did check out your video... amazing how that was a breeder setup. I wonder how much money all that cost... those displays look like they beat those of many zoos.

Typical American viewpoint, often said by people with no direct experience with both techniques. Naturalistic vivaria are more expensive but the maintenance is often reduced and it hardly endangers the snakes health.

a bit arrogant non? Naturalistic vivaria are no maintenance lightweights by any stretch, AND if you have a lazy keeper who does not stay on top of cleaning than you most certainly will endanger your animals health at some point. If you can create a microhabitat that is self sustaining in terms of biotic growth, consumption of waste, and the inhibition of less desireable bacteria than you are one bright bulb...

sterile tubs with papertowel and a waterdish are not the greatest visually but why risk an animal that you may have paid 100's or 1000's of dollars for? Better to use ones imagination and decorate enclosures with backgrounds and naturalistic looking cage furniture, perhaps using a natural looking substrate. There are many ways to go without risking the hygiene of your collection...

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Cheers
Lateralis
"I would rather be precisely wrong than approximately right"
Marion "Doc" Ford

I can see how that would come across as arrogant, although that was not my intent. Regardless, I'm sorry for that.

The fact of the matter is that I know of people who have housed extremely valuable snake collections in naturalistic cages that have not had their substrate changed in well over a decade. I know of a guy with some very valuable Green Tree Pythons who has not changed his subsrate coming up on 13 years now. And these are not $500 Aru Green Tree Pythons he's keeping. He does it due to the low maintenance. His husbandry consists of feeding, removing large pieces of feces and stirring the substrate. If I have the right guy he also does not use water bowls unless he will be away for a few days or more at a time.

And as far as endangering the snakes, there is actually a paper published somewhere suggesting the opposite. Another poster linked to it about a year ago. I'll see if I can track it down.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Malaysian locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

>> Naturalistic vivaria are no maintenance lightweights by any stretch, AND if you have a lazy keeper who does not stay on top of cleaning than you most certainly will endanger your animals health at some point.

I think in this case a more simplistic cage is potentially even more dangerous for the animal. If you have a lazy keeper to begin with, at least in a more naturalistic setup there will be more chance of wastes being partially broken down versus in a cage with only newspaper substrate where the animals soaks in its own urates until the keeper sees fit to clean the cage. Sorry, but a well designed naturalistic cage will always beat a simplistic set up hands down when it comes to basic maintenance.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

>>
>>I have to admit, one of the reasons I crave this is because I cannot get more snakes, however much I want to, due to the fact that my future is uncertain (mainly where I will live and how far I will have to move). To help resist the urge, I am trying to make the most of the setups that I do have.
>>

I love it. The reason for the rack system is just the opposite - so folks can house all those snakes they keep getting. But people like you and me, who just cannot or will not have many animals for one reason or another, will often start to think about more interesting caging.

I do think the minimal caging can be just as effective as "naturalistic" caging for some species and in certain scenarios. Snakes near human habitation will make use of metal signs, plastic tarp, cement blocks, plywood and other trash to successfully thermoregulate. Therefore, function can trump what is natural. If the cage is set up such that the snake can function, then obviously what constitutes the hides and substrates doesn't entirely need to be "natural" to be effective.

I did see a European cage catalog where they showed their plastic caging line and some examples of people's herp rooms. What was noticeable to me was the SIZE of the cages for adult colubrids. For example, what looked like cornsnake adults were kept in fairly roomy cages with hides on the floor of the cage as well as elevated hides. In other words, catering to the climbing abilities of the snakes. And this was a breeder's place! And the rattlesnake cages, while somewhat sparse and had what looked like paper as the substrate, had nice-looking cave-like hides for the snakes to take refuge (more than one) and were also much larger than a 32 qt plastic box from Walmart.

In fact, the only small box-like cages I saw were for hatchlings/young. Adults were given room to stretch and lots of hiding opportunity. In other words, while a person may not have the materials that make up their snakes' natural environment, the keeper can treat the snakes like they have a life instead of being kept in way-too-small of a polypropylene container..
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Mark

"Snakes near human habitation will make use of metal signs, plastic tarp, cement blocks, plywood and other trash to successfully thermoregulate. Therefore, function can trump what is natural. If the cage is set up such that the snake can function, then obviously what constitutes the hides and substrates doesn't entirely need to be "natural" to be effective. "

That's a great point. It even gives thoughts about a "found object" naturalistic setup, with cement and whatnot thrown in among weeds. Since I am trying to get an aesthetic setup, though, the naturalism is more for my own enjoyment than the snakes'. I just need to know enough information that the snake does not suffer as a result (e.g. from scale rot, mold, unhygienic conditions, etc....)

"What was noticeable to me was the SIZE of the cages for adult colubrids."

Another good point. I am trying to strive for larger-than-normally-recommended-in-the-US caging, but again the issue comes up with portability. I know I will be moving frequently in the next few years, and I don't know how far. Lugging a huge wood or glass terrarium is not an appealing prospect. I would have to think of either a cheap setup that I can replace every time I move or a "collapsible" and lightweight cage that I can take with me... preferably on the cheap side, anyways. Chris Harper mentioned the "Euro" caging that seems promising - if I can build it, I can take it appart. I would also consider things like a reptarium or a chameleon cage, although visibility is an issue in one and "escapability" in the other.

Lucky me, my rat snakes are small at this point. The poor ball python seems cramped in a 40-gal, even though she's only 3 feet (she doesn't seem to mind, but the hides on each end and water dish hide take up 90% of the floor area). Many sources say ball pythons would be comfortable in a 20-gal!!! I'm already planning on a 4 x 3' enclosure for the black rat snake as recommended in "The Art of Keeping Snakes". No idea how that will work with the moving and all, though.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Ball pythons inhabit rodent burrows in their African habitat, and are well at home in or near cultivated fields that have rodent burrows. In other words, they like rather tight hides. BPs seem to be happy in caging that is either small (your 40 gal is likely large enough for sure) or larger but with lots and lots of hiding opportunity where the hides are small enough such that the snake has to fit in tightly. You don't need a huge cage for a BP.

When you build any cage, remember that you'll need to fit it through a doorway and/or down hallways, so keep the dimensions within the range of being able to move it among rooms.

Here are links to some functional, lightweight cages. The 24" cube cage can be stacked on top of another one with access holes drilled to make a great vertical ratsnake cage.

www.herpcages.com

And for your BP: www.precisioncaging.com
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Mark

She seems pretty comfortable in the 40 gallon. The problem is that with the hides (that are just large enough, just sort-of flat) and the bigger hide covering the water bowl, I have no room to put in a humidity hide (and believe me, I tried every possible position save stacking the hides). She never soaks in the water bowl, so I have to soak her manually, that's all. I know smaller terrariums (20 gal!) are frequently recommended for ball pythons, but I would imagine the hides are all but on top of one another, or maybe you can only put in one hide and a bowl. Basically, it just makes me suspicious of the "minimum recommended" sizes for my other snakes, but that's where the European size increase comes in, as you were saying.

Thanks for the links, they look great. I would still like to figure out some way of getting an even bigger but portable cage. If by the time she grows up I haven't figured out anything, I guess I'd go with one of those or something similar.

European caging is fairly general but I have picked up on what you are talking about . I have seen many a pic of European planted enclosures which perked my interests. The trade off is sterility vs. something we feel the reptile will appreciate including our self enjoying our herps cruising in a naturalistic setting. I use a hybrid approach to caging I have a few outdoor enclosures made of plastic coated wire and plastic vision cages that have a granite look but are very cleanable. The outdoor play area also has a sub-teranian hide.

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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Are those Visions the 48"x28"x28" model? Is that what you keep your Pseustes in?
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Malaysian locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Think so. Here is additional stuff. The budget. If you increase ventilation you have more lateral flexibility with options. There is a company called polygem that offers zoo coatings and you can coat all your do-it -yourself caging. See link below. If you have do-it yourself caging your materials usually are wood. If you have animals get sick you may end up with sick housing. Polygem can minimize this. Here is a link http://polygem.com/zoo/hardct.php If you coat your wood stuff then you can sterilize your caging. The other bonus about wire indoors is the ability to light all your enclosures with a central lighting system Medal Halide and Low pressure Sodium can be installed central in the room.

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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Thanks for the pics and the sterilizing link. Where do you get the plastic coated wire? Or, more specifically, how would I find it at a home improvement store? Also, how do you prevent the snakes from pushing at the door corners and squeezing out (in your second post)? Thanks

The two companys that make the wire are Riverdale mills in Northbridge Mass. and Shepherd Steel in Houston Tx I have accounts with both companys if you have any problem getting wire.............Bill
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

...

Just because the cage isn't made with real dirt and grass doesn't mean that the animals won't feel at home. I disagree with the rack systems because I feel most animals are crammed in there. A lot of people justify the racks and tubs saying "the animals can't see you as well so they feel more secure" Most animals I have encountered from racks at the very least give off a good tail rattle. Do you think it is more stressfull for the animal to acclimate to human presence while young or to be stressed and scared every time you open its cage for the rest of its life? I will say that if I had a good number of snakes I would use a rack out of pure necessity. But if you can give the snake what it needs then do it! This cage is for my 3 1/2' cornsnake Hope. It measures 4'X2'X2'
And there are more additions to it to come!





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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Your heart is definatly in the right place. You have however humanized something that is far from human. My wife once told me that I was breaking the heart of a crocadile I was once keeping, my reply was he is in the business of breaking hearts. Explain how a Ball Python during a drout in the wild having to move from den to den running from ants that will eat him and then finding a den where he can coil up in, a space the size of the shoes you are wearing, for up to a year will benifit from your palacial caging arangment? Sorry, it has just been such a ling time since I have picked on you. LOL........Bill Nice set ups
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

You may have me confused with somebody else. It's David not Bill I am not saying that they don't suffer in nature. I flipped 3 frozen black rats last year because we had a late spree of bad weather/snow. Or a tree fell on one.... I am simply saying that if you can provide the best then you should. I don't think that because my snakes don't use every inch of their cages that they don't appreciate them. By that standard I could have just thrown a piece of carpet on my floor for Hope to live under (that is her favorite spot) My theory is that your snake should live like you do. If you live in a snake then your snake should live in a box. If you live comfortably then your snakes should.
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Like I said, I don't have much experience with snakes, but...

My ball python and corn snake almost never come out. The most I see of them, really, is poking their head out when they get hungry or moving from one hide to the other.

My black rat snake, on the other hand... I don't think theres a square inch of AIR that snake hasn't touched. I love it, almost always out and exploring. So maybe it depends on the snake? And I'm sure a ball python would appreciate a nice choice in hides. Even the corn snake makes extensive tunnel networks in the aspen. I think the BP would too, but the aspen is completely compressed within a day or two :|.

On a side note... I made some tunnels for the BP out of large-diameter PVC tubing and connectors stretching across three of the sides of the top and having three supporting tunnels with exits coming out the bottom. I actually decided to remove them because she spent ALL her time there, stretched out across the main tubing. As soon as I would put her back in her cage, she would head straight for the tunnels. Not only would I never see her, but I started worrying that she was thermo regulating incorrectly... part of her was in the warm end and the other in the cool. If I had a bigger enclosure for her, on the other hand, she could have her fill of tubing to crawl through. Too bad I don't though, as I always thought snakes and pipes were meant to go together.

I was the one coloring snakes with carrots. Phiber in your diet?
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

AWWWWWW! That was forever ago! I still say that although caratine may "boost" the orange it is only short term and unethical You have to forgive me, I have no memory....
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Actually it is not Beta Carotene it is two substances found in the exoskeleton of Insects and in the yoke of wild bird eggs, wild birds and their chicks. The substances are NOT provided in domestic diets. These substances are Carotenoids of which there are 600 of them. There are two that provide red in nature and those are the ones I am working with. Simply put I am providing my animals with something they would find in nature and all captives should have access to. I now have mountains of research and can more than back of any of my previous claims.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

You are missing the point.

It does not have to do with real dirt, or plants, or the size of the cage, or rack. It has to do with what a snake NEEDS, and what a snake WANTS.

Your problem is that you are anthropomorphizing desires that you have for your life onto your snakes. You have to understand that you are a large diurnal mammal who stands tall and has eyes that face forward and a big brain. You need food, and space, and freedom, and a stimulating environment. A snakes priorities in life could not be further from yours. A snakes first cares are about temperature and security. They have no great ambition for exploring the world.

I have seen many racks that meet a snakes needs much better then your cage. I don't mean to offend, your clearly want the best for your snakes. But I would argue that your cage would offer serious welfare improvements with a diggable substrate and strewn with tight dark hides of all shapes and sizes.

Once you have met your snakes needs then I would encourage everyone to go about finding ways to provide environmental enrichment. But that has very little to do with the size of the cage.

You did bring up a good point about opaque boxes. I hated how fearful my snakes were in them and I have switched over to entirely clear boxes. Now that the snakes can see me moving around the room all day they are much better adjusted to life in captivity. The only time I use opaque boxes is for hatchlings because I think that they really do start better with added security.

I too wish that more people spent time designing prettier cages.

Both of your colubrids could certainly do well in them if set up properly. I imagine you might never see your ball python again.

The only advise I would give is that if you want to use live plants with snakes you need to go BIG. Small cages and snakes and plants just don't work. But it can and it looks SWEET!