Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am not really sure where to start. But as I was saying earlier I want to build and make an enclosure for dart frogs and some peacock geckos and eventually some spotted turtles. I have constructed a 46 gallon bow front dart frog enclosure that has been running for about a month in a half. I haven't gotten any frogs for it yet because after about two weeks of it being completed I have found out we are going to be moving. So I am going to wait until we move to aquire the frogs. Everything is growing and working wonderfully.
My next project I would like to build a natural display for the frogs with water section and all just on a much bigger scale then the 46 gallon. I don't want to use an aquaruim to do this. The thing is I haven't found any clear answers for what kind of epoxies are safe to use to water proof wood. In both cases if I use wood it will have to be able to with stand water and moisture. I would like to make the backwall of both tanks out of something more then spray foam and co co fiber. I also need to figure out a lighting situation for the day geckos cage. I want to make it 3-5 feet tall. Flouresent lights for the plants won't reach down into the tank that far. So that means coming up with a light plan that will also include the plants on the bottom of the tank as well as the ones on top. Because I want all natural plants no fake ones. If I use the spray foam I would like to be able to use other materials to cover it with besides sealant and co co fiber. I would like to be able to maybe paint and seal it or maybe use cement and paint that or something to that affect. I would like to be able to put vents in it as well and have it open from the front on both enclosures. I want to use real wood as well as some stuff that I would sculpt myself. I found a product called appoxie, that is good and I did use it for my frog cage to sculpt my own water fall in the other tank. But the stuff is very expensive and I would like to find a safe product that comes in bigger quanities for a good price. The stuff I found only comes in 4lb buckets and cost me almost 40 for one bucket. I was also wondering if I could use auto body fiber glass. That is the only fiber glass I know about. Is this safe or is there another type of fiber glass that everyone is talking about?
Well that is the general discription of what I would like to do. Maybe you can come up with better stuff. Anything or advice would be greatly appreciated!!!! Thanks for beinging willing to offer help ( sorry about miss spellings can't spell worth a darn)

The thing is I haven't found any clear answers for what kind of epoxies are safe to use to water proof wood.

First, you should probably spend a good deal of time reading current and archived posts on the DIY forums at both Cichlid-Forum.com and MonsterFishKeepers.com. There are some incredibly talented and experienced keepers and they have used just about everyting to seal plywood to make aquaria that you could actually swim in (some of them actually post pictures of themselves snorkeling in their tanks, believe it or not).

Here are some things that are used to seal plywood to make them hold water:

Polyester resin and fiberglass cloth. Cheap, but smelly and hard to work with. And yes, this is the stuff you get at hardware stores.

Epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. Not smelly but much more expensive. Still considered the bullet proof choice. West Systems is the best example.

Epoxy paint. Basically epoxy resin mixed with tints and SOLVENTS. The solvents are not toxic once cured, but do make for a job that requires a respirator. Kind of like using paint as the solvents allow it to flow out well. Sweetwater epoxy is the best example (easy to find through google). Expensive.

A rubberized coating called Sanitred (also easy to find through google). This is being touted as the best of the plywood sealers but has to be purchased in large quantities and is expensive. Probably best for multiple projects.

Truck bed liner. Evidently most of these are safe for fish ponds, etc. and people have used them. However, silicone does not adhere to them so it can be tricky to get glass to stick. Unless you plan on underwater viewing this should not be a problem.

Drylok Latex Masonry Waterproofer. This is the new kid on the block and getting a lot of buzz because it is so cheap and so easy to use. It is a hydraulic cement paint. Several people have painted the stuff directly onto plywood and have had up to several hundred gallon tanks hold water for almost a year. Still, the long term data on this stuff just is not there. A couple of people have become nervous at about on year in time when they see small leaks and have decided to drain the tanks and coat with epoxy or Sanitred instead of just repairing the leak.

But keep in mind these are HUGE tanks with enormous water pressue. Nothing like what a frog tank with a small water area will be subjected to.

Another new product is called Pond Armour or Pond Shield.

I also need to figure out a lighting situation for the day geckos cage. I want to make it 3-5 feet tall. Flouresent lights for the plants won't reach down into the tank that far. So that means coming up with a light plan that will also include the plants on the bottom of the tank as well as the ones on top.

What most people do is try to create a ground cover with lower light requirements. Or chose tall and/or viny plants that can grow up the light source. Having lights down low is a great idea but does cause problems with moisture, especially if you use a misting system.

If I use the spray foam I would like to be able to use other materials to cover it with besides sealant and co co fiber. I would like to be able to maybe paint and seal it or maybe use cement and paint that or something to that affect. I found a product called appoxie, that is good and I did use it for my frog cage to sculpt my own water fall in the other tank. But the stuff is very expensive and I would like to find a safe product that comes in bigger quanities for a good price.

The foam can be bought in larger DIY kits. Matt Campbell is the guy to ask about that. He found one that is considered safe and cheap due to the amount you get.

They can be sealed with grout mix, painted with drylok or some combination of both. Again, the DIY backgrounds on the fish forums are an excellent source of information.

I was also wondering if I could use auto body fiber glass. That is the only fiber glass I know about. Is this safe or is there another type of fiber glass that everyone is talking about?

This is safe as is Bondo and other polyester body fillers.

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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Malaysian locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Thank you so much for the great information. I copied and pasted the reply to a file on my computer so I will not loose it. I am going to go check out the two links you gave me. If I have any questions in the future I will be sure to drop you a line!! THANK YOU!!!!!

The product that I know about which Chris was referring to is a two-part polyurethane foam made by Eager Plastics. Their website is: www.eagerplastics.com Under 'Catalog' you want to search for 'Two-component Casting Urethanes - Rigid and Flexible' and under that page at the very bottom you'll find 'Urethane Casting Foams'. The product you want is EP-4202. You can buy it in a variety of sizes and price ranges. This is vastly superior to spray foam because you can control it much better by mixing only very small amounts at a time. Using Dixie cups to mix it works great as you get only enough to work with a small area at a time. As it dries you can press shapes into it to give it texture, something that's very difficult to do with spray foam. It comes out a tan color though so you'll still need to spray it black or brown or apply black or brown silicone to it so that if material flakes off later you won't see the tan color underneath.

As for your other questions regarding plants and such, Chris is correct. Most Dart keepers won't place lights inside for lighting lower plants but will instead use much brighter lighting overhead or simply make do with planting low light plants in the lower reaches of the tank. I don't know that anyone has really created a dart habitat as ambitious as what you're planning [at least not in this country], because most amphibian keepers utilize readily available glass aquaria. However, that's not the case with many zoos who do create very large exhibits using many of the techniques you're describing. What you should do is really carefully research the habitat requirements of the various species of dendrobatids available and pick some species that might work well together and then design your habitat around that. One combo that was suggested to me was D. auratus mixed with D. ventrimaculatus.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

Thank you for the reply. I will do just that before I even start building anything. I wasn't planning on mixing the species though. I heard that is a bad thing to do. I was just planning on one type of frog for the enclosure.
I will have to get some of that foam that you suggested. It sounds like a good product. You said something about spraying it after it was dry. By spraying it where you reffering to spary paint? Do you know of a spray paint that is safe to use that won't affect the delicateness of the frogs? That would be great if there is!! I put your post in a file on my computer so I will have it for later reference. THANKS!

Most spray paints, particularly enamels go inert once they've dried. However, to be on the safe side, I would shop around at a craft store like Michael's or JoAnn Fabrics and look for a florists spray paint. I forget the exact name but it is listed as being API non-toxic once cured. You can also use Liquitex artist acrylics which are API non-toxic as well. I've used the Liquitex acrylics which I airbrushed on and then covered the cured painted surface with a coat of Krylon matte fixative. A further method of finishing is also to take fiberglass resin and mix pigments like crushed stone into it for coloration. The resin is then painted on the foam structure. I don't like resins though because they stink, take a long time to cure, and leave a slightly glossy sheen. If you want to create the effect of a rock using the foam you should go for a paint finish however if you want a more natural organic result like a mud bank overgrown with plants I'd coat the foam with black or brown silicone and press in coco peat or coco fiber as is dries.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

Thanks Matt. I have used the foam, coco fiber and silicone method on the tank I have growing out now. It was a pain in the neck. It does look nice though. I will keep all these ideas in mind when I build my tank. I am going to make one more from a glass tank I have. I think it is a 20 gallon or maybe a 30 gallon long. I don't know for sure because I purchased it from someone else. I am going to make it into another dart frog enclosure for a pair of auzures. Then I will start the big one that I buid from scratch. I have kept these posts in a file on my computer so I will not loose them or have to search for them. I thank you and Chris for all the help you have given me!

>> I thank you and Chris for all the help you have given me!

You just have to promise to post photos on the forum once you're done with the big cage.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

I will but it won't be for a long while. But as soon as it is completeled I will.