Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We adopted out a baby sav a while back- I got a call from the lady today- didn't want it anymore b/c= wait for it..
It threw up. She fed it a f/t mouse- one she bought from me that I got from rodent pro (so not worried about parasites or poisoning or anything).
She fed it the mouse yesterday and today it was in the water bowl. I have seen snakes regurge but and I never thought i'd see something worse. She doesn't live far from me so when she called me to ask what may have happened- i just went over.
He had pooped in his bowl as well- which is normal. I'm not really sure why that would have happened. Her temps were a bit low but they were by no means WAY off. The ambient was about 89 and the basking was about 119 when I got there- but the lid was also open. The sav is now back in my care for a bit while I figure out whats going on with him. She works all day so I can watch him a bit closer. He's still active- walks around, got a drink and is now laying half in half out of his cave....

whats up?
Beth
-----
The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

>>We adopted out a baby sav a while back- I got a call from the lady today- didn't want it anymore b/c= wait for it..
>>It threw up. She fed it a f/t mouse- one she bought from me that I got from rodent pro (so not worried about parasites or poisoning or anything).
>>She fed it the mouse yesterday and today it was in the water bowl. I have seen snakes regurge but and I never thought i'd see something worse. She doesn't live far from me so when she called me to ask what may have happened- i just went over.
>>He had pooped in his bowl as well- which is normal. I'm not really sure why that would have happened. Her temps were a bit low but they were by no means WAY off. The ambient was about 89 and the basking was about 119 when I got there- but the lid was also open. The sav is now back in my care for a bit while I figure out whats going on with him. She works all day so I can watch him a bit closer. He's still active- walks around, got a drink and is now laying half in half out of his cave....
>>
>>whats up?
>>Beth

Did she thaw the mouse thoroughly? Was it a bit too large ....combined with slightly too low temps.? OR were her temps too high? How long was he in your care and was he fine then?
-----
Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

I would guess that the little guy is fairly dehydrated. under normal conditions, it should not really be spending much time in the water. give it a lot of acceptable soil and a fully covered top and see how he does then.

Ambient too high, basking too low. Stress could be a big issue, humidity, hides, substrate etc.

Hello,
It is quite simple... Improve the husbandry insufficiencies and the problem is solved... 119F is not 135F - has never been, ... never will be. Best to you-Mike

I wonder if she fed it and then handled it a short time later. Add in the stress of the move and you have an upchucked mouse.
-----
Ed

He was with us for 2 months- a little longer- I got him switched to f/t or f/k. He was healthy- eating pinkies, crickets, superworms and occasionally wax worms- they're hard to find around here without special ordering. He gained weight and almost doubled in size before we placed him.
I don't know if the mouse was 100% thaw. I showed her how to thaw them and she said she did. She did not handle him after he ate. The mouse could have been a bit large for him- I didn't see its "full" size- I only saw that "partially digested size" and it was hard to tell how big he was. He is right inbetween eating a few LARGE hoppers/fuzzies (whatever they're called) and small adult mice. The "partially digested" one would have been an appropriate size- but i don't know how much was digested off of him.... it was not recognizable to be a mouse but logic tells you that thats all it could have been- and the smell!!!!!!!!!!!!!
His cage is pleanty large, has 2 hides (those store bought cave things) and a corner he can somewhat hide in. He has a shallow water bowl in the middle, His basking spot (now is 129) (i got him yesterday so I'm still tweaking the thermostat its an old- non digital one). He was cruising around yesterday for a few minutes. He wasn't interested in the pinky I put in for him. I'll be getting my shipment of crickets today hopefully, we'll see how that goes.....
He's not skinny- he could stand to be bigger but hes definatly not emaciated.....
I guess I'll mess with the temps a bit more and give him some crickets today and see if he bounces back.
thanks
Beth
-----
The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

First, monitors cannot eat something to big, if they can swallow it, its not too big. In fact, they commonly consume prey thats so big, it does not fit. So they digest part, while part is hanging out of their mouth.

Heres the point for this discussion. Larger prey requires better conditions to digest it. Not only better temps(a common cause)But also hydration. Which is also very important. In this case, these two items work hand in hand.

I raise baby monitors(have raised many thousand) with a high of about 110F. I am also the person who "outed" the high temps(135F up). So its not about me not agreeing with high temps.

Now for the punchline. Its basic science. Baby(neonate) montiors, have an extremely high surface to mass ratio. That is, they are lots of surface to allow dehydration, without the stores to allow that(mass) So they dehydrate very quickly. You mentioned an open top cage. Please, that is a death sentence, and sadly, higher temps only make it worse, not better. The more heat, the faster the air moves, the faster the air moves out of the cage, the quicker the monitor dehydrates. Please understand, there is NOTHING to make up for this. You mention half log hides. Those things are stupid, PERIOD. They are of no value and only cause harm.

Heres why, neonate reptiles, in this case montiors, live in burrows(savs) they only use certain burrows, not any burrow. They use holes or make their own, that have the right conditions. That is, they place them where the sun will heat the upper areas and the deeper areas have the cooler temps(base temp) they REQUIRE. They also pick or make burrows that have aprox. 50% humidity. They use more or less as needed, but again, that is a good base. They DO NOT WANT TO BE MOIST OR WET. Double period.

Without question, Savs do not like water, seek water, or want anything to do with water. Water only means flooding and they are about to drown. But, they seek water when dehydrated. That or die.

So when a sav or any non-raparian species seeks water, its out of desperation, extreme need. So, if a Sav poops in the water bowl, or soaks in the water bowl, its normally out of extreme need. Not merely liking something, but they overcome their fear in order not to die.

Yes, sometimes it looks like they like being in water, but so would you if your about to die from dehydration.

The point is, do not let them become dehydrated. Then they will not HAVE to seek the water bowl. By the way, they will seek it when overheated as well. After all, they are not dumb.

So, learn to allow your "rescues" to take care of theirselves. They know how. Learn to provide what they understand how to use.

Reptiles make burrows the exact size they are, there is reason, to not allow air movement(prevent dehydration) They also make burrows to prevent predators from eating them. Half logs do not do either. They are merely a placebo for YOU the keeper, nothing to do with the monitor.

To rescue, means freeing from a tight spot. It does not mean putting in another tight spot. Cheers

I did not say I used a half log in his cage. I have them in other cages, where they would be appropriate. I have the cave hides. He does have burrows under them. I put the caves in only after I had seen him burrowing under other 'things' like the basking rocks and water bowl. He is on the dirt/sand mix. Crickets get dumped in a bowl and he gladly climbs into the bowl to get them- don't want him injesting anything.
As for the 'open top' lid. It is a screen top but the screen top is covered with a layer of aluminum foil, cardboard, aluminum foil again, and all taped around the screen. All of my 'screen top' cages are done this way- enough space is allotted for a basking light to be overhead. I'm not a total freaking idiot- sreen tops do generally allow for too much circulation and it is impossible to maintain steady temps in such an enclosure. I suppose I should have said that the screen top was covered. The temps stay within 2 degrees at all times through the day and a bit lower at night- as recommended.
As for the water thing- I provide a water bowl for all my animals- no matter what. He has pooped in his water since the day we got him. I have seen him occasionally walk through it. I have seen him get a drink twice. When we first go him, I was not aware that so many people keep thier savs at 130 basking temps. He was much lower than that- and thats when I saw him drink. I have not seen him drink since I raised the temps. I've never heard that an animal will not seek out water. What you said about water meaning flood and "I'm going to die" does make sense- but in this case- he will not be dying. In all the research I've done- some say high, some say lower.... both have produced 'thousands' of babies- (breeding thousands of babies is most likely the reason I end up with so many- about 2 a month.....) who does that make right? I've decided to settle for somewhere in the middle. Not 135 but not 100. Seems to be a happy medium for me. And he ate earlier with no problems. Crickets, a few superworms, and 2 fuzzys. I've had several kinds of monitors- this is the only one I've had a problem with. Yes, they come in with problems- go to the vet or get fed properly with a better set up than a 10 or 20 gal. fish tank with a heat pad- and get fed something more.... worth eating than the crap people feed thier monitors- and they bounce right out of what ever ailment they may have come in with....
I came here looking for someone else who may have had this experience and could give me some advice and save me a trip to the vet. But it seems that whatever was wrong with him- seems to have gone- we'll see tomarrow I guess.
and I'm not really sure what "rescue means to blah blah blah out of a tight spot- not to put in a tight spot is supposed to mean but perhaps if the creatures weren't so incredibly over bred- there wouldn't be a need for people like me to spend several thousand a month (which I have no problem doing) to give the unwanted animals a roof over thier heads and a meal in thier bellies (except in this case where the one meal didn't stay down...)But I guess everyone has to make a living doing something.... lets all go breed rabid pit bulls and sell them for 20 bucks....
-----
The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Sorry, but you are confused (about many things I'm sure, but I'll just focus on one). No one in the US is breeding savs. Or if there is anyone producing savs, the number pales in comparison to the other 99.9% of savs being sold which are imports. If you know how anyone could make any money whatsoever breeding savs then please enlighten us.

>>First, monitors cannot eat something to big, if they can swallow it, its not too big. In fact, they commonly consume prey thats so big, it does not fit. So they digest part, while part is hanging out of their mouth.
>>
>> Heres the point for this discussion. Larger prey requires better conditions to digest it. Not only better temps(a common cause)But also hydration. Which is also very important. In this case, these two items work hand in hand.

This was my point. Everything is relative to conditions, and thank you for clarifying that, since I didn't and should have. In a perfect world most problems would not be problems. Unfortunately reptiles, especially monitors it seems, are a new thing to people, especially vets. So, if we had most any other animal in captivity and couldn't even get it past basic life events we would feel pretty ignorant. People don't get reptiles to begin with so the whole thing flys over their head.

When I said the prey was too large or cold it was relative. If this baby had had smaller, easier to digest prey, it might not have had a problem. The goal is to get the conditions ideal (rare in most 'pet' homes) after that you just try to get by. Since we have no idea what was actually going on it is all guessing anyway.
Sorry for the cynacism, but I work in the pet trade. I get ignorant people calling all day long. Basic ignorance. You can't save every animal but you can tweak things so that it works out better.
-----
Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

You can't tell now what happened. It could be any of the things mentioned, mouse not thawed, monitor dehydrated or handling after eating. If you place another monitor with that lady make sure she has a Humidistat. In either case if it does well in your care again you know its not the monitor. Good luck.

Nerkhunts,
I think it is safe to assume that FR knows the cause of the regurgitation and

Did you bother to read his post?

-Mike

yes I read it- pleanty of it makes sense but what I'm seeing with my own eyes and what the vet has told me before- He's healthy. good color, good skin, great tongue, blah blah blah. I cover the screen top cages with every cage. I do not keep my monitors at 135 degrees.
And besides that I NEVER SAID HE WAS IN AN OPEN TOP CAGE. I will say now that he is in a screen top cage- but the majority of the screen is covered I did say that when I got to the womans house she had the lid off which would i suppose for the time make it an open top cage- but it is not just an open top cage whatever you call it.
screen top- covered majority of it due to air circulation- duh.
when i got there- she had the lid off- LOOKING AT THE SAV.
and where the frick did the half log things come about from?!?!?!?!- quite the imagination. (I do use them in other enclosures where it would be appropriate for the animal- I get a plethera of them donated- why waste them)

...did anyone bother to read my post?...
this site used to be for people seeking advice- either for a new pet or a sick one, or something (in my case) that they'd never seen before- (its after vet hours and the vets out all this week anyway). (and yes I use a reputable vet- not just some dog/cat shmuck that doesn't know an iguana from a tarantula....)at this point- this site is not much more than a pissing contest- so I suppose the name is appropriate. I have gotten good advice on occasion but only in the threads the "experts" (breeders- woohoo overpopulation) don't frequent....
-----
The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Hmmmmmmmmm screen tops will eventually cause their death. You heat the cage, to any degree, that causes air to rise, that pulls in air from a room in your house which is extremely dry or your house would mold. Of course the higher the heat, the faster it occurs.

Common signs of dehydration are,
1. deficating in the water bowl.
2. Soaking in the water bowl.
A. dehydrated
b. to hot.

3. excessive drinking.

Xeric reptiles do not have a need to drink, unless dehydrated. They normally exsist on moisture contained in their food.

Just a thought, tens of thousands are kept in tanks with screen lids. Where are they now. Why don't they achieve life events, like recruitment? To many Whys to even ask? Cheers

"I have gotten good advice on occasion but only in the threads the "experts" (breeders- woohoo overpopulation) don't frequent...."

I don't think you understand. There are not thousands of monitors bred in the country, like leopard geckos, bearded dragons, and ball pythons-animals that would be considered "overpopulated". In fact, there are only a handful of breeders in the country, and possibly only a couple breed savs. Most of the monitors you see (particularly savs, waters, and niles) are stolen from the wild as babies. So there is no "overpopulation" of captive bred monitors. But even if there was, I would much prefer an overpopulation of CB monitors than the current overpopulation of wild caught ones.

I think it would be wise of you to take advice from these breeders, particulary FR. Also, I think you should not retaliate every time they say something you do is wrong. They have seen years and years of reproductive success (Frank has seen a couple decades) unlike the person who told you they bred thousands of savs. That was probably just an importer trying to pull of his imports as CB.

Try to listen and learn from this forum, instead of arguing.

Cheers,
Ryan
-----
There are three kinds of people in this world: people who can count and people who can't.