Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here "the whole gang" was piled up while we watched a movie.

"Larry" is an 11-yr-old Ornate Nile Monitor and the furry creatures are a 4-yr-old Jack Russel and a 1-yr-old Boston Terrier. They get along really well although I don't usually leave Larry alone with them just to be extra careful.
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

If there is anything I can help you with it would be one thing. What is in your lap is not a monitors. But a poor reptile made to be something its not. You call that a nile, its no longer a nile and its no longer a monitor.

These type pics, make me want to get all wild animals out of private hands(and I am a private hand)

You call yourself a person who rescues reptiles, that is not a rescue. Thats varanid torture.

I am sure your a nice person. But I hope you someday learn, that your dogs only do that because they were forced too. Over long periods of time they were selected(culls killed off) and line bred to BE subservent to man(males best friend) So now, dogs are line bred to do whats in your pic.

Unfortunately monitors are not line bred and are not dogs and surely do not act like one. Your picture is horrifying and akind to a slave master in a pic with slaves.

By now I am sure you are mad as a hornet, but please understand, that animal(the monitor) is like a hornet. It does not sting, but it has no need for you. Unless you take away all things normal and useful to it. Its a wild animal.

And please do not be naive and say, monitors can be tamed. Sir, monitors are tame, but they still are monitors. Allow that monitor to be a monitors(i believe you have no idea what that is)

Its times like this that I totally agree with Reptile authors like Danniel Bennett(and many others). His statement of "monitors in boxes" applys. No, its not just that their kept in boxes, its about their normal natural behavior is in a box(boxed up and hidden).

Sadly in captivity, we can most likely never allow monitors to be 100%, but we should strive to allow them to be as much of what they are, as we can. Your pic displays total human dominace and proves that humans have the power to take all things normal to a species away and force them to be like us.

You could particapate in something natural to it, like help it dig up some croc eggs. Thats doing something it likes. Of course there are many other things natural to it you could help it with.

Heres the deal, a normal monitor is curious, they are kinda like a ferret, when awake, they HAVE to investigate everything in their area. They have no patience, They are egotistical and narsissistic. Its all about them. They have a fire in their eyes(a life)No fire in the eyes, no life in their brain.

They have real natural behaviors, much like your dogs. Males guard and protect their belongings. That thing in your lap is a male. Let it be a male. Monitors are many wonderful things, but they should be allowed to FIRST be a monitor, then second become your partner(friend). Yes, they form partnerships, like for hunting and other tasks.

If your niles was allowed to be a nile, you would not have a blanket on it, in order to properly function, they must have a high body temp. IF they don't they do not leave their burrows/shelters. If your nile was properly warmed up, you would be sweating. And it would tail wack those dogs(and you too), there is no question about that. Why is there no question, because male monitors must maintain an order, just like you and your dogs. Tail wacking is social positioning, not being mean. Its simply what they do.

In that pic, there is an order, your dominate, and animals are at your feet.

I hope you understand(but I doubt it) that this post is not meant to make you mad, but instead for you to wake up and understand that animal in you lap really does(can) have a life. Then learn to allow it a life. Once you do, they you can make friends with it. I hope to give you respect for that animal, enough respect that you put your wishes aside(real love) and allow it to mostly be a monitor. Before you turn it into a subhuman.

First and foremost, monitors are not yet domesticated. Dogs are. Dogs cuddle(pack animal) monitors are not warm blooded, therefore have not developed a behavior to cuddle. They will seek warmth from non animal sources. To force them to seek warmth on you is placing them in a compromised position.

Monitors are much like people, they think they are superior. That is what makes them so much fun. You think your superior(just look at your pic).

If you did not, you would be laying on a sand bank, basking in the hot sun, after fishing for crabs and such. You make the monitor do human things. Why not join your monitor in doing monitor things. After all, you have the power to do that.(you ARE superior)

That animal in your lap is a BOOK of something wild and natural. ITs full of totally captivating behaviors. Its life has been scarficed to be in captivity. At least you can allow it to teach you what a monitor is. Not turn it into a child.

I do apologise for the rant, yes, its an early mourning coffee rant. Later in the day, I would simply avoid seeing such a horrible sight. Its simply to sad and disturbing. Whats worse, so many KIDS will see this and want to destroy a living animal. Just like your doing.

ahhh we are all guilty of the manipulation of these fine animals for our own enjoyment. It is a matter of what degree of this captivity and subjugation to humans is acceptable to you.

I happen to enjoy monitors more by providing them a more natural existence than this individual, but then again I obviously dont care for them enough to have nothing to do with their captive husbandry. If I really loved monitors I would leave them alone in the wild and argue for others to do the same.

In fact I am involved in their actual trade, so I am much more guilty than this guy apparently is. The more involved I am in their trade and especially their captive breeding the more participatory I am in their continued subservience to humans.

Many of us here are monitor slave traders hahaha. Or even worse, monitor slave breeders.

Kind of like someone flying a jet around to lecture on energy use. A slave provided a nice house is still a slave, even if born as one.

Tom

Of course I do not agree totally with you. I use the word totally for a reason.

This is not a black and white issue. That pic is an extreme. Remember, the reality of that that fella does, may be entirely different then the pic shows. But there is no denying, the pic is the pic and what people see.

There are indeed huge problems. Man is without question, destroying the natural world. There will be fewer and fewer wild animals unless man changes is ways, and surely there is no sign of that happening.

So that brings up a couple problems. These animals are either going to disappear or become captive. Captive does not exactly mean in a box, but up to a park or small conservation area. The point I hope to make is, we do not understand what monitors are, YET. If you look at them in captivity, only a very few have any kind of success with them, and even fewer have self sustaining success. In the future there will HAVE TO BE the knowledge to allow self sustaining success.

So there could be(is) benefit to keeping them in captivity. We need to learn how. Also, the more monitors there are in households, them people will know they exsist. While that sounds silly. When push comes to shove, it will take huge amounts of support. If the majority of people do not know anything about them, they will without question be gone. So while it "can" be bad for the individual monitor, the more people are aware they are PART of this world, the better the chance they will stay around.

Even with that aside. Lets just simplify it, You should treat a bird like a bird, a fish like a fish, a human like a human, a dog like a dog and yes, a monitor like a monitor. Sir, its respectfull to treat them as what they are. Not treat them like something they are not. That is the focal point of my post(of course emotions mess with me too)

Its horrible to me to see people throw out the beauty of what IS a monitor, and try to make them into a dog. After all, there are already dogs.

Again, its not about being tame, monitors can be monitors and be tame, they are just different. They do not lay there, they would instead dig in your pocket looking for something to eat, or tear up your couch making a burrow, or thrashing up the kitchen like a honey bear. As that is what they DO.

To me, to know monitors is harmful to me, as I see that pic and I only see an INJURED montior. INJURED both mentally and phyically. And I get sad.

Again simply put, if the heck your going to put them in a box, then do it right. How simple is that.

For instance when Nessies mom, first posted of her wonderful monitor experiences, she did both, she allowed the monitors to have freedom of choice, and be pets. But she have a problem that eventually came to the surface. The monitors were not allow a full range of temps.

THe first indication was, she would take nessie swimming in a lake. The problem was, nessie needed a floaty as to not sink and drown. Now consider, a nile montior is one with water. They swim like a fish, no, better. A healthy tame niles would investigate the lake, hmmmmmm the bottom of the lake, like a land dwelling monitor would investigate the land. What would you think if you have a monitor that could not walk? well thats like a nile that cannot swim. They swim.

So we fought about that, but not about the way she kept them. If she understood what a nile was, in this case, an extremely strong swimmer, and she changed her husbandry to support that, Nessie would be here today(we could argue about that too).

In both cases, these monitors are not kept in a way to support their immune system. They will be a constant health problem as they are immune compromised. A monitor with a full range of temps, has such a strong immune system, they can health from anything short of cutting them in half. Hmmmmmmmmmmm they may survive that too.

For instance, I the last grip of years, I have hundreds of monitors, my give them as much access to heat as I can. They have also been exposed to wet, wet and cold, hot and cold, cold and cold, wet, cold and more cold. And in all these years and in all kind of horrible conditions(having them outside does that) I have never had one case of a cold(upper respitory infection) or mouth rot. Both are indicators of a poor immune system. In fact, I have never lost one single monitor to disease. But I surely have lost monitors, as in lost in the room, squashed in all sort of manner(their own doing)(my poor cage designs) etc etc.

So I wonder how this things occur. Then I see a pic like that and understand. They lose the will to live. No matter if your in the pet trade, or a keeper or a hippie freak, WE must give them the will to live. Cheers

"Its horrible to me to see people throw out the beauty of what IS a monitor, and try to make them into a dog. After all, there are already dogs."

wow that said it all...

Very well put, all of it.

Tom

Hello,
In particular, the second photo is of particular interest- where the monitors head is sliding to the side... From your perspective it will be difficult to understand FR's post but to illustrate his point, allow it to bask uncaged in direct sunlight in the middle of the day until it chooses to move- see then if it permits your behavior still... Monitors are wild animals. Provide him with the best monitor life that you can. After 11 years of that, you may be the first to allow him a life... a true rescue story... Best to you- Mike

Well this started an interesting discussion, didn't it?!

To be fair, the pictures did tell a story of their own and I can see how people would draw their own conclusions. However, the rest of the story is that my reptiles aren't usually treated like cats or dogs. "Larry" in particular has an indoor cage and an outdoor setup where he can dig and bask in natural sunlight, etc. However, I don't agree that a little bit of socializaiton takes away a monitor's ability to be a monitor. Just as wild Nile Monitors have learned which animals to fear and which animals to tolerate in Africa, I believe they can learn to tolerate humans to an extent as well. Larry tolerates the dogs because he's used to having them around, he can't eat them, and they don't threaten him. He tolerates me because he's been handled his entire life and I'm warm and soft and I don't threaten him.

He has instincts and he's hard wired to be a monitor, obviously! But he doesn't know anything about lions and elephants and crocodile eggs because he grew up in captivity. He has time to bask and dig and soak and swim in captivity, but the existence he knows is what it is. Its no different than coyotoes or deer or Cooper's Hawks that thrive in the suburbs. I have hand-fed wild turkeys before.....did I rob them of their identity?! Maybe I should have given them some prozac with the cracked corn since I may have sent them into a spiraling depression!

As a biologist I have the utmost repsect for understanding organisms are what they are. I have no illusion that Larry is a dog or that Larry "loves me" or is loyal to me. But if it "takes away his life" to be warm and comfortable with me and the dogs while we watch a movie, or to visit a school and inspire hundreds of children to appreciate wildlife conservation, then we might as well close down every zoo and Sea World and pet store and reptile show in the world! There is no "simulation of the wild" that is as pure as the wild itself.

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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

It would be more appropriate if you and the dogs would go lay in larry's outdoor cage with him heated up... Also more entertaining pics as I can imagine what would ensue!... Best to you-Mike

I know some of you don't want to believe it, but Larry maintains a gentile disposition even when he's basking in the heat of the day.

I don't leave him alone with the dogs just to be safe, but he doesn't even hiss at them, no less tail whip or bite. The first time he met them he hissed and musked but he has since learned that they are not a threat to his existence.

Consider another "wild" relationship between two creatures: alligators and turtles pile on top of each other to share a basking spot all the time when they are both a similar size and they can't eat each other. Neither one is harmed by the commensal interaction. Five or ten years down the road that same gator would be snacking on the turtle that was his "snuggle buddy" on the log. They don't care about each other but they also don't threaten each other. Is either one less of a turtle or less of an alligator because they are "cuddling" on the same log? Is Larry less of a monitor that he has learned to tolerate the mammals he lives with? I suppose many experts will have a slightly different take on that one.

>>It would be more appropriate if you and the dogs would go lay in larry's outdoor cage with him heated up... Also more entertaining pics as I can imagine what would ensue!... Best to you-Mike

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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

First in my responce to Tom, I did mention that the pic tells a story, maybe not the whole story.

Also, I get the feeling you may not have any idea what a healthy monitor is. And more importantly does.

Its nothing to do with elephants. Your comparision to a Coop is backwards for your case. A coop is a coop and does Coop things whether its in the woods or in the suburbs. It still flys, eats birds, makes nests, has about the same size territory, etc. The same for Deer.

Once you take that away from them, they will no longer exsist.

Monitors do stuff too. In fact, they do much of the same things, they from bonds with other monitors, they practice a somewhat ritualized nesting(species and population specific) much like birds.

I do not know where you are, but sun is meaningless to them, other then a tool for heat. In most cases, its the last resort to gain heat, not the first. In most of our country, its not nearly hot enough. So they sit in the sun, wasting their life, never gaining the energy to carrying out their lifes.

I can only hope you start to wonder what monitors are. Cheers

I do not know where you are, but sun is meaningless to them, other then a tool for heat. In most cases, its the last resort to gain heat, not the first. In most of our country, its not nearly hot enough. So they sit in the sun, wasting their life, never gaining the energy to carrying out their lifes.

I don't think their desire for sun is as simple as a desire for heat. The reptile room is in the 70s and his basking spot is much hotter still. Yet on a day in the 60s he will scratch at the door to go out because he sees the sun. As soon as he gets in the sun he will plop down and bask. He has to know the difference between high 60s in the sun and the much higher "artifical heat" of the reptile room. If all he wanted was heat why would he want to leave his hot "artifical" basking spot for a warm "natural" basking spot? Don't you think all reptiles benefit somewhat from D3, even carnivores?

I am curious what methods of monitor keeping you believe are "justified." Do you believe in any keeping of monitors in captivity? Where is the dividing line between right and wrong? No dogs in the reptile room? No prekilled food? Don't you think you are trying to apply black and white standards to a pretty grey area?

How do you feel about zoos and educational programs with live animals that give children a passion for wildlife? Is it wrong for these animals to be out of the wild and socialized with humans? A friend of mine has a timber rattlesnake that has been to so many schools it doesn't even rattle its tail anymore. It is the healthiest looking timber rattlesnake you'll ever see. Has it been robbed of its rattlesnakeness because its not stressed out by humans? I am having a hard time understanding your standards of right and wrong for reptile keepers. By nature, aren't we all taking wild animals out of the wild?
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

That would be the cool end of a cage not the warm end. I hope the basking surface is much much higher 130-160. Also about the need for D3 unless your diet is very poor then your monitor should already be getting that.

I admit when I saw your post I looked into your monitors eyes and they dont paint a pretty picture. They look very sad and dipressed compared to the eyes of my niles. Yes I realize ornates and niles have been seperated blah blah. Will see how long that lasts this time. Anyways back to your monitor it does appear it has given up, I hope that is not the case. I noticed you mentioned it is 11 but you just got it in your care. I would urge you to reconsider your thinking and to listen to those who have raised monitors for 11 years, trust me even tolerant ones have a different look to them.

I wish your monitor the best of luck and hope you realize what it is you have one day. I also hope that your picture doesn't entice anyone to go out and buy a monitor thinking they will one day be able to cuddle it under a blanket.

I love how you guys say you shouldnt treat a monitor like a human, yet you claim you can see depression by "looking into the eyes" of a lizard, in a picture no less....

ooooookay.

you know some lizards are born with a sparcle in there eyes, some have given up on life even befor they hatch.

This ornatus is dead, maybe the keeper thinks otherwise, but in time if he keeps monitors he will know this lizard is dead alredy.

The words of the inexperienced are so easy to recognize, Nilekeeper. These are things that are over your head right now, you will know when you know... You are unknown as of now (pun intended)... best to you- Mike

are you so naive that you think emotion (feelings) are only seen in humans?? Oh yes us humans are the only things that can get the look of dieing (broken spirit) or whatever you wish to call it. All those silly lizards do is just die nothing else they don't fade away or give up no emoitions or signs of behaviors in them.

WOW! You should really study about animals some more. As what I mentioned seeing has nothing to do with humanizing anything.

Hello,
Your reptile room is far to cool. Even the wild Niles down here keep to the burrows when it's in the 70's. That ornatus is even more tropical then them. Point is, what you are witnessing is your monitor that is too cold inside seeking what it knows(that animal was wild once as 11 years ago there were no cb baby ornatus coming in regularly) instinctually should be a much hotter option to inside your shelter. - More experience with "living" monitors is what you need- when you witness what Frank and Jobi are speaking of, you will know what they are speaking of... remember this-Mike

Well this would have been an interesting discussion if it didn't turn into a rant fest. If I chewed out every person who brought a reptile into the rescue, eventually nobody would deal with me and the reptiles would be stuck wherever they were.

My reptile room stays in the 70s and cages are individually heated. I get my species facts from different sources. For this Ornate, I started with Faust's "Nile Monitors" and other sources. The research of others serves as a great building block, but I still don't take those numbers for face value. I watch my herps to see that they're thermoregulating between hot and cool sides because everyone's numbers are different (Faust suggests 110-135 for basking, someone on here suggests 130-160, someone else will say something else...). Personally I believe in trying some different temps and making sure my herps are thermoregulating between both sides of the cage, and also eating, shedding, and defficating normally. You never know what lurking variables are going to affect an individual's needs. Maybe his diet in captivity digests 15 degrees higher or lower than his diet in the wild.....all I'm saying is that a true biologist can't just accept absolute rules for every detail. There are no absolutes in science or in the wild.

For example, I don't accept that monitors don't benefit from D3 just because it's conventionally accepted on internet forums. Several AZA keeper friends of mine, herpetologists, biologists, etc believe UVB benefits all reptiles to some extent, carnivores included, even if science doesn't fully grasp it. They may not die without it like iguanas and tortoises, but that doesn't mean I'll deprive them of it.

I think we have exausted this discussion and we're chasing our own tails at this point. I will leave you of a picture of something that truely is NOT what a monitor should be. These are the "normal" animals we get into the rescue. Hopefully the monitor whisperers on here will look into its eyes and won't see the same thing they see in Larry.

Please try to remember that animal rescues don't have the luxury of operating in "the perfect world". We are out there trying to help out as much as we can with whatever resources we can. We know we can never save them all, but maybe we will be able to help a few. I wish we could give every one their own acre, but many times a rescue is the last resort before unwanted herps are dumped in the wild, shot in the woods, etc. Sometimes the best we can do is still a step up. If you can do better please I encourage you to be involved with a rescue in your area, as some of you probably already are.

Thanks for the imput,
Cheers all,
Jesse

>>Hello,
>>Your reptile room is far to cool. Even the wild Niles down here keep to the burrows when it's in the 70's. That ornatus is even more tropical then them. Point is, what you are witnessing is your monitor that is too cold inside seeking what it knows(that animal was wild once as 11 years ago there were no cb baby ornatus coming in regularly) instinctually should be a much hotter option to inside your shelter. - More experience with "living" monitors is what you need- when you witness what Frank and Jobi are speaking of, you will know what they are speaking of... remember this-Mike

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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

First off, you and the rest are venturing off into meaningless grey areas, that is arguing over nothing. To bask is only a tool to allow a reptile to live. In most cases, they DO NOT BASK. They normally live in areas that are the temps they need without basking. In other words, basking is a sign of insufficient temps. So the monitor moves to increase its temps.

The reason for higher temps like 135F and above is, this decreases the time it takes basking to reach normal temps and allows the monitor to go about DOING WHAT THE MONITOR DOES. In otherwords, basking is not what monitors or any reptile does, its something that allows them to do life tasks. Its only to heat them up to operating temps(so they can operate)

To heat up is to get their motor running, the monitor in that pic does not have a motor running. I guess I am trying to tell you, its not about basking or even eating, remember feeding is again only to support any animals lifes, its not their life. Feeding is to fuel their life.

You appear to think, eating and basking is their life. NO, its what supports their lives. Their lifes comes after they are fed and heated up. Please try and understand that.

Don't worry, this approach, you know confusing their life with what supports their live is very common.

The D-3 thing, I have to say, its heat that allows them to convert the D vitamins and that allows the placement of calicum. The reason I know this is, I have bred more, raised more monitors then all of the aza instititions put together, times 5. And, I have tested how it works many times. Over and over again.

I have produced hundreds of generations. While that sounds like bragging, its not, its suppose to make you aware of experience. A generation is the hatching of a pair, raising them to adulthood and having them produce healthy offspring(to recruit) I have done this with 20plus species of all sizes(not KDs) I have done this in the sun(outside cages) and inside, I normally use incandesent bulbs, but I have also raised up monitors without any lite bulbs(to test this, not a common or recomended practice)

The result is, they all progressed the same as long as they had a proper heat range.

With that said, wild monitors thermoregulate temps in the dark, 99% or more of the time.

In fact, the invention of Retes boards was to facilitate dark temp choices in small captive conditions.

So yes, I am confident I have far(way past that)more experience raising monitors that all of AZA put together.

One problem with the written words about varanids is, its mainly written from very very little experience. Science says, to quantify. That is to express statements based on high numbers. If you research AZA information, you will see, they base publications or single events. In fact, is something is commonplace, they fail to award value to that. That goes for scientific publications as well. They promote the rare, not the common(with this subject). Again, in otherwords, there have been no studies done on numbers of monitors, and more importantly, captive monitors raised successfully. Successfully is to be raised to and accomplish life events.

As an example, you have an 11 year old nile. What has it done in its life? eat? poop? bask? is that it? how would you like to do that for your life. I have a 22 year old lacie. Its a great great great grandparent. As we speak hes attending a female. He has build nests(helped) chased me off said nests, he has build homes, protected those homes(shelters) and much more.

Heres a pic of him attending(one of many lifes behaviors)(what they live to do)

Nows heres a pic of mountain horned lizards doing the EXACT same behavior.

You see, animals have a life and that life is more then feeding and basking. You has a rescuer, should without question, understand what these animals are suppose to do, or you would not be a rescuer, you would merely be taking them from the pot to the pan. If nothing else, enjoy the pics.

P.S. I am treating you like you have experience, I would not treat a beginer like this. If you were a beginer, we would be working on conditions to allow feeding and basking. The tasks that support their life. You as an advanced keeper(one capable of rescuing) should understand the difference between what it takes to support a life and the actual life.

You are right FR....your monitors probably live much better lives that many others in captivity. And based on your experience and background, you are certainly a leading expert in the field. In fact, you may even be the leading expert in the world, hands down! For that I give you a cookie (sorry there is a bite missing).

Unfortunately, the reality is that there are THOUSANDS more monitors in captivity than there are experts of your calibur to care for them. I have a couple savs scheduled to come in to the rescue, but most experts don't want to bother with such a common species. Let me consider my options..... I guess I could possibley offer them a sub-par existence here or adopt them out to another quasi-experienced home where they would never truely "be a monitor". Eventually they could be switched over from the pot to the pan, if they're lucky. Or instead I could just turn them away, so I wouldn't be responsible for their sub-par lives. What should I do?

You know what? I think I have made my decision. I think I will continue to rescue these poor critters from conditions which are often unthinkable, and do the best I can. My monitors might not know what it's like to "truely be a monitor" but they will enjoy a slight improvement from their previous home. I guess that's a start.

Cheers
Jesse

>>First off, you and the rest are venturing off into meaningless grey areas, that is arguing over nothing. To bask is only a tool to allow a reptile to live. In most cases, they DO NOT BASK. They normally live in areas that are the temps they need without basking. In other words, basking is a sign of insufficient temps. So the monitor moves to increase its temps.
>>
>> The reason for higher temps like 135F and above is, this decreases the time it takes basking to reach normal temps and allows the monitor to go about DOING WHAT THE MONITOR DOES. In otherwords, basking is not what monitors or any reptile does, its something that allows them to do life tasks. Its only to heat them up to operating temps(so they can operate)
>>
>> To heat up is to get their motor running, the monitor in that pic does not have a motor running. I guess I am trying to tell you, its not about basking or even eating, remember feeding is again only to support any animals lifes, its not their life. Feeding is to fuel their life.
>>
>> You appear to think, eating and basking is their life. NO, its what supports their lives. Their lifes comes after they are fed and heated up. Please try and understand that.
>>
>> Don't worry, this approach, you know confusing their life with what supports their live is very common.
>>
>> The D-3 thing, I have to say, its heat that allows them to convert the D vitamins and that allows the placement of calicum. The reason I know this is, I have bred more, raised more monitors then all of the aza instititions put together, times 5. And, I have tested how it works many times. Over and over again.
>>
>> I have produced hundreds of generations. While that sounds like bragging, its not, its suppose to make you aware of experience. A generation is the hatching of a pair, raising them to adulthood and having them produce healthy offspring(to recruit) I have done this with 20plus species of all sizes(not KDs) I have done this in the sun(outside cages) and inside, I normally use incandesent bulbs, but I have also raised up monitors without any lite bulbs(to test this, not a common or recomended practice)
>>
>> The result is, they all progressed the same as long as they had a proper heat range.
>>
>> With that said, wild monitors thermoregulate temps in the dark, 99% or more of the time.
>>
>> In fact, the invention of Retes boards was to facilitate dark temp choices in small captive conditions.
>>
>> So yes, I am confident I have far(way past that)more experience raising monitors that all of AZA put together.
>>
>> One problem with the written words about varanids is, its mainly written from very very little experience. Science says, to quantify. That is to express statements based on high numbers. If you research AZA information, you will see, they base publications or single events. In fact, is something is commonplace, they fail to award value to that. That goes for scientific publications as well. They promote the rare, not the common(with this subject). Again, in otherwords, there have been no studies done on numbers of monitors, and more importantly, captive monitors raised successfully. Successfully is to be raised to and accomplish life events.
>>
>> As an example, you have an 11 year old nile. What has it done in its life? eat? poop? bask? is that it? how would you like to do that for your life. I have a 22 year old lacie. Its a great great great grandparent. As we speak hes attending a female. He has build nests(helped) chased me off said nests, he has build homes, protected those homes(shelters) and much more.
>>
>> Heres a pic of him attending(one of many lifes behaviors)(what they live to do)
>>
>> Nows heres a pic of mountain horned lizards doing the EXACT same behavior.
>>
>>
>>
>> You see, animals have a life and that life is more then feeding and basking. You has a rescuer, should without question, understand what these animals are suppose to do, or you would not be a rescuer, you would merely be taking them from the pot to the pan. If nothing else, enjoy the pics.
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>> P.S. I am treating you like you have experience, I would not treat a beginer like this. If you were a beginer, we would be working on conditions to allow feeding and basking. The tasks that support their life. You as an advanced keeper(one capable of rescuing) should understand the difference between what it takes to support a life and the actual life.
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

You could learn as much as you can about monitors and their care and pass that info along when you find new homes for the animals.

I personally think it's irresponsible to post a picture of you cuddling with your monitor. I wonder how many 14 year old kids will see that picture, save up their lunch money, go out and buy that cheap sav or nile expecting to be able to cuddle with it. Six months later they will have a grumpy, unhealthy shell of an animal that will require "rescue".

You would do the animals much more justice if you convinced folks that they are not good family pets to hang out with and should be kept only by those with the resources to do so.

Taking in unwanted animals is a thankless job, it's good there are people like yourself willing to do so.

I personally think it's irresponsible to post a picture of you cuddling with your monitor. I wonder how many 14 year old kids will see that picture, save up their lunch money, go out and buy that cheap sav or nile expecting to be able to cuddle with it. Six months later they will have a grumpy, unhealthy shell of an animal that will require "rescue".

I agree with you there. Normally I would not show these pictures around without a disclaimer. The last thing I want to do is send the wrong message to people who don't know better. However, I figured the kingsnake crowd had enough background without a long explaination about most monitors being aggressive.....I guess I hit a few nerves though.

At my educational shows I teach that reptiles are best appreciated in the wild where they belong, and that they are not good pets for most people. When people ask if my reptiles "know me" I give them the true scientific explaination that they tolerate me, and they aren't loyal to me like cats or dogs.

Of course we can never stop learning about the creatures we keep to do the best for them. However, I still don't believe that a tame reptile is necessarily an unhappy or unhealthly reptile every time.

cheers
jesse
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

You did hit a nerve. Many folks have been here a long time, myself included. Once you answer for the 1,000,000th time Billy's question about why his "tame" sav isn't eating, you tend to get a little jaded.

The funny thing about forums is that there are usually more lurkers than posters. There is probably someone reading this thread right now who found this site doing a Google search for nile monitors 5 minutes ago, hopefully they read the entire thread.

Good Luck

You did hit a nerve. Many folks have been here a long time, myself included. Once you answer for the 1,000,000th time Billy's question about why his "tame" sav isn't eating, you tend to get a little jaded.

Sorry I didn't mean to hit a raw nerve as you guys do good work educating a lot of people. I thought I was "preaching to the choir" with the kingsnake folks and wouldn't need the disclaimer about niles not being "cuddly"....Had I known that it was a sore subject with the regulars on here I would have included the disclaimer with the pics. Thanks to those of you who cleared it up so kids wouldn't get the wrong impression.

Although I don't disagree with HEALTHY "socialized reptiles" I am the last person to encourage people to attempt to domesticate monitors, alligators, etc. At my educational shows I even spell out that iguanas are usually much more aggressive than the one they are seeing on my shoulder. I do firmly believe that a reptile is a reptile and not something else, even though it may learn to tolerate and accept humans as a non-threatening part of its environment.

I think we are all striving to educate the public about these amazing creatures (both their importance in the wild and the significant care they require in captivity). I wouldn't bother doing rescue if I didn't care about these animals receiving the best care they deserve and you can rest assured that Larry does not spend every night sharing "movie nights" with the rest of the family.....just every once in a while If he showed stress I wouldn't have him there.

Cheers all
jesse
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

Jesse,

I applaude you for trying to improve the lives of these mistreated animals. The majority of the people who respond to these threads on this forum just regurgitate information that they hear and consider themselves to be experts.

Continue to learn everything you can and good luck with the rescue.

Please, its not about backing down or whatever. I can only hope that you a person who whats to help monitors can realize that there is more that can be offered. More then drinking and feeding and basking. Once you see monitors actually function, a to reproduce is the goal of their lifes. They will give anything to accomplish their goals. Yes, they will die to recruit.

Along the road to recruiting are all sorts of behavioral events, they actually do, like attending a female. Or even forming games of males and messing up the neigborhood. hahahahahaha

I am reaching out to you, much like you are reaching out to others.

Yes, I may be more aware of the problem then you think. At one time I kept track of the numbers of imports and what percentage lifed a year. Its very very bad.

So, I do not want you to back down, I only ask for you to think about what monitors are.

Also, think about what effect you pic has on the numbers of kids that want a big fat tame monitor to cuddle with. Sir, those monitors rank high in needless deaths. Cheers

well after going threw and reading this entire thread (it took a while) i just want to say that it was one of the most stimulating discutions about monitors that i have witnist in a long time. Theyre were allot of good points made as well as alot of steriotypical generalizations that may or may not aply. either way im glad i found this thread and im sure there have been quite a few people (including myself) that have benifited from it.

here we go ,

Ok ... Its obvious you have chosen a side but will not budge , however , the moment a monitor was brought into captivity was the moment you DESTROYED the monitor( or any reptile) and turned into something that it is not ... with this comes a responsibility , not just to the reptile in question but to the people within its vicinity .. Would you keep a dog , unsocialized and at arms length with the risk that one day it could cause some serious harm to anything it cam in contact with ?
No .. You wouldnt , or at least MOST people wouldnt ... Dogs , squirrels, racoons, opossums, lions, tigers, binturongs , cockatoos , parrots etc all fall into the same catagory .. these animals are socialized , and contrary to what you say , socializing does not KILL the animal or make it "not a monitor" .. it makes it a socializwed animal that can cohabitate peacefull with another species. This is what life is all about. Its about evolving.. in todays society , with all the earths wildlife being threatened by man , this is a good thing . It shows that man and animal can co exist .. some situations are good , some not so good ... But i applaud Rugbyman2000 .. he has brigded the gap..... the montior certainly doesnt look dead to me ... it looks as though he has evolved into his given situation ... he didnt seemed stressed eaither.. Was he fighting to get away? was he attempting to bite?? Was he inflating himself ? Was he hissing ? No ... none of the above ...
What I saw was a montior that has been socialized to human intervention. A perfectly fine thing. A perfectly responsible act on the part of the keeper... I would say this monitor is pretty docile and accepts humans , or could care less about their presence ... either way , there is a lessened sense of threat on both species. I applaud this.

Man and animal can live together.. Life Evolves ...
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Safari Tom
See'em Touch'em Save'em
www.SafariTom.com

Your totally missing the point. In Oh so many ways. First monitors are not mean, they do not attack people, if they get out, they hide, and often hide until they die. If you come across a monitor in nature, it does the same, it runs and hides. It does not attack people(with KD's being the possible exception and they are not part of this discussion because we cannot keep them)

Dogs attack people, period. Of course not all dogs, but a fairly high number. Dogs chase people or cars or bikes or anything that will run from them, that is their natural behavior, even thought they are domesticated.

When monitors get away, they attempt to disappear, not run down the hallway going for any throat they can find.

Monitors have to be kept in such a way the are allowed to be monitors, as they cannot created their own metabolism. Healthy monitors with the ability to be "monitors" are less agressive then monitors that are handicapped by poor conditions.

I have lots of monitors and they do not bite people and I do nothing to "socialize them" except to eachother.

I hear this, I don't want it to bite me, then dag gum it, stop offending them. Treat them as monitors, they are not mean to start with. All your farting around is what causes them to be mean.

There should be a law that states you MUST UNDERSTAND WHAT A MONITOR IS, then you must allow it to be that. Then you can use reward conditioning to get it to do whatever you want. To grab them and forcibly hold them is not a reward, its very much the opposite. It forces them to fight or die. Dang how basic is that. Its simple behavior.

The truth is so very very simple, if you want a tame monitor, all you have to do is feed it. It will love you forever. Cheers

Now i feel your missing the point ...

Why keep a monitor to begin with ? Do you have a dog ? Or have you ever ? Or a bird ?

Humans interact among other species. This is natural...

I could argue this till im blue in the face but i will not ... I understand your point ... however I do not agree with it 100% ...
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Safari Tom
See'em Touch'em Save'em
www.SafariTom.com

You dont fool me! that monitor is dead, put him back in the freezer silly.

I took inn a few very tame monitors, some from shops other from keepers on vacation, these monitors have all become defensive in less then a week time, why? because I gave them a tast for life.
your is alredy dead, but if you ever foolishly take on such an animal on rescue, I hope you will respect him more then your photo shows for.

I think nils are awsome monitors because they teach respect to the keeper.

Hey Rugbyman,
I'm almost 100 percent sure that the animal in your pics is V. ornatus... A magnificent monitor when treated like one. Best to you- Mike

You know what man dont listen to that advice. Yea yea i don't know that much about monitors, I mean I have a savannah and I know enough but yea I have not had monitors for years and years and years. But you know what that is a freaking picture of a guy who loves his pets and obviously wants to take care of them. I mean I have seen people on these boards bash other people because they don't really care about the animal and now you bash someone that does. No one asked this guy the whole story on how everything is set up before you started ranting on it.

Look that monitor looks physically healthy and who is to say that his monitor isnt calm and doesnt just lay around on a normal basis. You can not say every animal of one species is exactly the same. I mean look at anacondas there are tons of anacondas that people will say are just plain mean. But then I have seen some people on the boards have a huge one that they say is a tame as a kitten. O wait look an exception to the rule.

Get off this guys back, go hug a tree or a monitor or a tree monitor for all I care. I am tired of people thinking they have the right to tell someone what they should do with their animal when that person doesnt have a clue of the animals history or present situations.

Hey Rugbyman, enjoy your pet and I hope it enjoys many more long, happy, healthy years with you.
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Tsnakeguy,
The majority of monitors that are mistreated are not provided with what they need to survive. The majority of these captive monitors have owners who have the best of intentions for their monitors- they just don't know any better- like you... To come on here and criticize an expert opinion, someone who has worked with thousands upon thousands of monitors- and you have one. The problem is not his will towards the animal, it is the inhospitable environment(in all aspects) that is causing the demeanor(health condition) of his monitor that you and others mistakenly identifying as tameness. A truly tame monitor is very quick in motion and due to everything being provided in abundance, has no interest in biting humans. I once had the pleasure(and responsibility) of working with Osceola, a fifteen foot C.acutus that was truly tame- you could lay the rabbits and chickens into his mouth while standing straight up at the edge of the water- not ready to run like you see on the Crocodile Hunter TV show (had fun with plenty that made me run too!-all respect to the Irwins). This animal was not metabolically compromised, he simply developed no interest in biting or fleeing because everything was well provided for him for many, many years(man, the den he dug was huge). I wish this was the case with the photographed lizard, Larry, but in these photos, this animals health is compromised. These animals consistently do not have a monitor personality or display normal monitor behavior which should appear as fast, smooth, deliberate movements and not slow and cumbersome like a cold alligator on land. Best to you- Mike