Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,
I'm new to this whole thing but genuinely loving my first snake and Albino Whitsided Bull (Courtesy of J. Cherry). I think I'm over the hump with the basics and now I just have a couple of general knowledge questions for you experts out there.
1) Can you breed the Bull to any Pituophis? How about other snakes like an Indigo or other colubrid?
2) Is there a "genetics for dummies" site out there that can explain what to expect when breeding different genetic blends (eg. breeding a snow to a red bull, or snow to snow, etc...)?
3) Does anyone know how large the largest Bull snake has gotten? Your personal records on size?
4) Are there any herpers in the Portland Oregon area that go out looking for wild snakes in the region that may want to take a family (husband, wife, 3 young girls )of new enthusiasts along?
or are there any tips on finding the species in the wild if we want to go look ourselves?

Thanks for any input you may have.

Ron

First, let me congratulate you for your choice in a first snake and the breeder you purchased it from.
You probably won't receive a lot of support on this forum for creating hybrids by breeding your bullsnake to other pituophis, drymarchon, etc.
Most of the people who frequent this forum do so because they have a profound appreciation for pituophis and everything that makes them unique and special. Many pituophis breeders even make attempts to breed animals from the same locality to produce pure animals that represent the snakes from a specific area.
It is possible to breed different subspecies of pituophis together but it usually just degrades from the natural beauty of each animal. Pure pituphis are much more sought after than any pit hybrid.
I'll leave your genetics questions to the morph experts...
My field guide says that the record length for a bullsnake is 100" but I have a feeling that record has probably been surpassed.
Sorry if this post came off as a lecture...I dont mean it that way. I just hope you'll spend some more time with your new pit to see what makes them so special before you consider creating hybrids with it.
Good luck,
Chris

>>1) Can you breed the Bull to any Pituophis? How about other snakes like an Indigo or other colubrid?

Yes to other Pituophis, but WHY in God's name would you want to? I'd strongly suggest you don't create more of the hybrids (e.g., mutts in my opinion) that we don't need. Over time, hybrids will eventually get misrepresented and screw up the captive gene pools. Not a good idea to breed a bullsnake to anything but a bullsnake if you ask me. To your second question, they have created bullsnake hybrids with some snakes other than Pituophis, but it won't work with all snakes.

>>2) Is there a "genetics for dummies" site out there that can explain what to expect when breeding different genetic blends (eg. breeding a snow to a red bull, or snow to snow, etc...)?

Nothing that is all encompassing is available, but a snow X snow = all snows. Red bulls are not a simple recessive trait, so you's end up with some redder bulls and some normals. The amount of red in the snow bulls that would be possible is unknown and a topic of debate right now. Are you thinking of any particular crosses? We could give you the expected outcomes on those crosses (probably....lol).

>>3) Does anyone know how large the largest Bull snake has gotten? Your personal records on size?

...almost up to 10' bullsnakes have been found in Val Verde, but even that there is uncommon. A good working average MAXIMUM size for southern/west Texas is probably in the 8' range, but that is still an average MAXIMUM. Most never reach 8' in captivity. They can get much thicker (which means fatter and unhealthy) in captivity than in the wild, too.

KJ

Isn't the "Snow" Bull itself the product of some form of crossbreeding? I heard from someone that the "Whitesided" trait was technically a morph and I took that to mean a crossbreed with something. I'm really facinated by all the different ways the bullsnake can turn out but at this point it's just curiosity as to possibilities due to the fact my baby isn't even a yearling yet. I am interested in the genetics thing though like what may be the product of continual breeding of snows to snows? Leucistic perhaps. Or could you attain a bluish very large light patterened snake by breeding a Snow Bull to an Eastern Indigo? Just fun to think about what my baby could ultimately give to the world snakes.

If it was possible (and it's a big IF), breeding a snow bull to an eastern indigo would be no different than breeding a normal bull to an indigo (except that the offspring would be het for those traits). It would look like a bullsnake / indigo hybrid which would probably be pretty hideous.
It's cool to be curious about things but hybridizing a spectacular and federally protected snake like the eastern indigo would be a really bad idea...and probably very difficult to achieve.
Chris

Point taken and well respected...

Ron

Ron,
I'm with Gila and Kjun and the rest on this. There are many potential problems to hybridizing snakes. It's not likely to have any effect on wild populations, unless you had some nitwit releasing the hybrids. One of the possible problems (besides the misrepresentation issue) is that in a true hybrid, the offspring would likely be unable to reproduce. Some of the genera of colubrid snakes are actually closely related enough to interbreed and produce viable offspring, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

I think that intergrades that occur naturally in the wild (where subspecies ranges overlap) are OK to produce in captivity if you happen to like them, but some of those have a tendency toward genetic defect also. To my mind, producing hybrids in captivity, unless it is for some bone-fide genetics research, is playing God and just wrong, but that just my opinion. Some of the hybrids that I've seen were some of the ugliest snakes I've seen.

As the others have said, your Bull Snake is an awesome creature in it's own right. Enjoy him for what he is. If you want to breed him, make more just like him or play around with the different morphs.

But...keep the curiosity. That's a good thing and without it, some of the beautiful pure Bull Snake morphs that are out there wouldn't exist right now.

yeah keep the pits pure (geez that sounds like a corny campaign slogan). My 2c.

Gopherlover(evan)

>>Isn't the "Snow" Bull itself the product of some form of crossbreeding?

Nope. It is the double homozygous version of two simple recessive traits: white-sided and albino. The white-sided trait was found in a pure bullsnake and there have been at least 2 different lines of pure albino bullsnakes found. Sooo, snows are pure bullsnakes. I guess you could MAKE a hybrid snow with another Pituophis albino, but WHY would someone due that?

> I heard from someone that the "Whitesided" trait was technically a morph and I took that to mean a crossbreed with something.

It is a morph in the sense that it is a mutation resulting in an abnormal animal that can be selectively breed. it isn't a hybrid, though, unless someone MAKES a hybrid using a white-sided bullsnake.

> I am interested in the genetics thing though like what may be the product of continual breeding of snows to snows?

If done randomly, nothing but more snows. If done in a manner to select a new look, you can get "better" snows: ones with more or less yellow, ones with more or less red, ones with reduced or increased pattern, etc.

> Leucistic perhaps.

True leucism is a simple recessive trait where an animal is all white with normal eyes. They can produce pigmentation, but they just can't put it in the skin (hence the all white). True leucism has nothing to do with snows.

> Or could you attain a bluish very large light patterened snake by breeding a Snow Bull to an Eastern Indigo? Just fun to think about what my baby could ultimately give to the world snakes.

If you are thinking of hybridizing it, I believe that you could only take from herpetoculture. I don't think hybridization in captivity could give herpetoculture anything at all.
KJ

a fat, content indigo.......

Everyone who is pro hybrid seems to leave out some or try to forget one critical piece of info about kings, milks, indigos..etc. They like to eat other snakes!!!! Yes.....that is very much common knowledge, but I love it when I hear people say..." Oh...kings and corns breed in the wild." I have heard that garbage so many times. Thing is.....if a king meets a corn in the wild..he doesn't care what locale the corn is...or what color phase and then doesn't care if the corn is an opposite sex or not...he is wondering what kind of steak sauce to use on that elaphe and what kind of drink to go with it. LOL!

Take care!
Billy
-----
Genesis 1:1

Oftentimes if a king meets another KING in the wild its nothing more than a meal.

However, I do think an indigo vs Bull (or pine) fight would be one hell of a match. Sure, the pit probably wouldn't beat the indigo, but the sheer size of both snakes would make things interesting!

Van

Oftentimes if a king meets another KING in the wild its nothing more than a meal.

However, I do think an indigo vs Bull (or pine) fight would be one hell of a match. Sure, the pit probably wouldn't beat the indigo, but the sheer size of both snakes would make things interesting!

Van

Oftentimes if a king meets another KING in the wild its nothing more than a meal.

However, I do think an indigo vs Bull (or pine) fight would be one hell of a match. Sure, the pit probably wouldn't beat the indigo, but the sheer size of both snakes would make things interesting!

Van

sometimes i have to use baby corns or rats to jump start hatchling cribos as they are not exactly rodent ready in the very beginning. what generally happens is that the victim is seized by the head in .0001 nanno second and is either promptly decapitated or just chewed on like a cashew.....only viciously! these are expert snake killer/eaters that remain lethally so under captive conditions despite their docile appearance and demeanor towards their keepers. i only lost one snake accidentally to a cribo [on 8/1/02, a date which will live in infamy] but it was over so fast i couldn't react quickly enough. i gave a big male unicolor a momentary inch and he took.......about 6' of a gorgeous white oak rat! i ended up letting him have it cause it's jaws were mangled beyond repair from the initial attack.....that and he swallowed it in record time. that was a heartbreaker!! i lost a favorite snake that day for no good reason........

n/t

I don't. I just bought her. As soon as she arrived and I openned the boxe, I fell in love with her, but she is really overweight. She's on a diet until she slims down some.

KJ

Dang, KJ...now we know that Pits will breed with anything...Pythons, Rattlesnakes..what's next?

But the answer im hoping isnt next is the keepers hand. lol. That could be an interesting hybrid.

Evan