Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is this message board only dedicated to people who raise, care for and SELL Ball Pythons?

I thought it was mainly dedicated to the hobbiest that loves these snakes and is intrigued with raising them and sharing his/her experiences and observations?

Why, and this has been going on for YEARS, is it that any question that might be perceived as damaging to the bottom line met with ridicule?

I thought there was no such thing as a stupid question?

However, when someone on here dares to ask questions like "What do you think Super Pastels will be priced at once the breeding season is in full swing" or "If I go to the HERP show on the last day with cash, do you think I can pick up a female spider for under $500?" is that person's question met with the "here we go agian" response and the idea treated as stupid or taboo ?

Questions like or similar to this from someone who is not a professional Ball Python seller and just wants to get the best deal possible have everyright to be asked.

I make a pretty good living and I can afford a wide variety of the snakes listed in the classified section of this web site. However, I find it fun to raise and create them on my own and I want to pay a little possible to do this...plain and simple.

I know a lot of people on here have alot of money riding on their snake business and I really appreciate this (my wife owns a business too and I know what its like to have to make payroll every week - believe me), but this doesnt mean that EVERYONE that post here has to be in lock-step and collude to keep snake prices a high a possible ...

I think you said what quite afew people on here have been thinking-
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Addicted
1.2 "Normal" Balls
1.1 100% het Ghost Balls
1.1 Diamond Carpets
0.1 Irian Jaya/West Papuan Carpet
-Just as addicted as the rest of you- this is the life-

i see alot of abuse on these forums im not like you are and cant afford pretty well anything in the classifieds but i do like ball pythons i have 10 of them so far and the morphs are amazing i try to find good deals whenever i can i bought a female pastel that is a picky eatter to save money its easier to spend time than it is money for me i dont want to steal the big guys thunder im not out for money in ball pythons i just want good animals for my collection i was remembering something kevin mccurly said he once said he is his biggest customer he wants to keep everything thats the way i am if its pretty i want to keep it not sell it some of the money i see guys spending on these animals makes me feel like a little fish trying to swim up stream in a big ocean im not even a blip on the radar but some reason people think guys like me are going to drive the market down by trying to find good deals trust me im not that powerfull there are alot of guys on these forums just like me we dont have a lot of money but still have a love for the animals and want nice animals were just like the big guys just less money the big guys love the snakes too and think they are pretty thats why they spend so much time and money making new morphs because they want another pretty snake in the collection just like us little guys were just after the pretty snakes
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kevin
36 pythons and boas and 4 lizards

Funny... when I see those types of questions on this forum I just think... "another bright child that can't find the correct forum." Those types of questions are really for the " Business Trends and Issues" forum. I'm sure you'd get a better response for expressing your opinions on business issues there.

This forum is really designed for general BP topics and while I respect your opinion (and may even agree with you), once again, this isn't the correct forum.
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Larry Walker

WebSite

I am willing to bet this one goes as long as the "BEST WAY TO PRE-KILL A RAT" thread.

Hehe. Ten bucks says mid-debate it gets yanked and put in the business trends forum after all.
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"The python has, and I fib no fibs,
318 pairs of ribs.
In stating this I place reliance
On a seance with one who died for science
This figure is sworn to and attested,
He counted them while being digested."
~Ogden Nash

jenny.thegreenes.org

"If you're happy and you know it,
Bomb Iraq!
If you cannot find Osama,
Bomb Iraq!
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq!

I thought it was mainly dedicated to the hobbiest that loves these snakes and is intrigued with raising them and sharing his/her experiences and observations?

Conversely, how does the constant asking of market price of any morph have to do with "loving these snakes" and "raising them" and "sharing experiences"????

I don't get how you make one discrepancy and not the other. Doesn't make any sense.

Because he is the kind of person that wants all morphs to crash so he can afford them

I love the snakes and I also want to preserve their prices as much as possible. I believe this is best for the hobby, the snakes and the breeder.

I couldn't agree with you more!!!

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Larry Walker

WebSite

Good Im glad someone else said it, this guy Zefdin is basically a trouble maker he has started 3 different threads just to get some stuff going. I would say its giving him pleasure replying to his threads I wouldnt waste my time from now on.
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Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

The only problem I see with a thread like this is not is it a stupid question but is the answer. Many, many times before on similar threads its been said how can you predict what the price of a particular morph is going to be. And if someone gives you an answer; say $100.00 for morph X are you willing to sit on the sidelines waiting for that deal to come along, just because someone you probably never even met set a price. You know what you can or are willing to spend. And that is ultimately what any particular animal is worth to you. And theres always going to be exceptional examples of any particular triat that are going to fetch a higher price. And I have said it before and I will say it again. The seller sets the price, but the buyer sets the value. Also I don't believe a post like this has the power to drive the market down, its just not that easy. If it was we would all have $50.00 Pastels and $100.00 Spiders in our collections. And as far as here we go again. I only use that because these threads usual end up as "The Post From Hell". But its going to be pretty tough going up against "How to kill a rat part 2".

Jeff

Youre EXACTLY right, I couldnt affect prices if I wanted too.

I dont really care what prices are right now. I have my puzzle pieces lined up for the next 2 or 3 years already and , except for a few odds and ends, I am not buying anytime soon and could care less.

Also, I never ask the "What do you think Spiders will be in June" questions. It bothers me when the people that do ask them get shouted down by some wanna-be Ball tycoon however.

HHhhmmmmm.
something struck me in your post.
"I am not buying anytime soon and could care less."

If you care so little (or care less) why did you even bother posting this topic in the first place?

By the way .................... who are you? How long have you been around here? Meaning how long have you been on this forum or in the ball python game. I am just curious to know.
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Christine
Tails With Scales Reptiles
Looks, brains, and venom . . . . how do I stay single?

"If you care so little (or care less) why did you even bother posting this topic in the first place?

By the way .................... who are you? How long have you been around here? Meaning how long have you been on this forum or in the ball python game. I am just curious to know."

Yeah what she said! WHO ARE YOUUUUUU???
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

...
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hybrid breeders association
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.3 ghost corns
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 childrens python
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 albino banded cal king
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo

I would say this, when someone asks the question, and is met with rude remarks from several people, too me, it just weeds out the guys not to buy from.

I will say the same thing I said awhile back that got moved to the business or market section of this forum. There are basically three people in the Ball game, the bigger breeders, the hobbyist breeder, and the newbies.

The big breeder usually has many years vested in snake keeping and breeding, which takes big dollars spent for caging, supplies, food, electricity, etc. They usually bought into the majority of the projects when the individual project was in its infancy, which means they paid the highest prices for the morphs when they bought them. The big breeders usually breed snakes for a living, relying on snake sales income to pay their bills. I think we hobbyists need to respect this, just as we respect our elders...

The hobbyist is pretty much what I would call myself. I own some very nice Balls, with a mixture of Het pairs and Homozygous animals. I breed the snakes to make vacation money and extra money for a pool, colored concrete at my house, maybe a Sunday driver vehicle. If I do not make a sale this year, my bills still get paid. I give myself a certain length of time to sell a certain animal at a certain price. If it does not sell in MY time frame, I will probably lower the price. I sold 24 out of 25 or my hatchlings from 06. Can I hold back animals, sure, but working a fulltime job means I want my snake duties to be as short as possible, which means less snakes, less cleaning time.

The newbies are people just getting into Ball breeding. These people are usually looking for the best price, and some will sacrifice quality for quantity. I was there once, but now prefer to buy only animals that I would call a 9 or 10 out of 10. I do not think we should knock people for looking for the best price, they will learn, you sometimes get what you pay for.

I think we all need to understand that breeders who rely on snake sales to pay their bills, and the time and effort it takes to be a top dog, front runner, and trailblazer in any given field is a time consuming job, and they should be commended and given a certain amount of respect. That said, the big breeder had better think twice about emailing people telling them that their price is too low. You can sell for what you can get. ME, with no real name recognition, might be able to get $500 for a snake that a big breeder could get $900 for. It is my perogative, to sell it for what I can get, or to hold onto it. I personally HAVE the space to keep back every snake I produce. I have purchased caging well ahead of my needs---which is amazing, usually I procrastonate big time. Bottom line, we all need to accept that a newbie wants a good price, and that the hobbyist might be able to sell cheaper, or more willing to sell cheaper, but the big breeder might have better stock on some snakes, and more education to pass on. We need to start acting like we are on the same team. People in all three catagories need to understand that we all have different needs, and expectations from this hobby/business.

Dave

that being said I liked that they WERE expensive. It keeps them from being throw-away animals like iguanas and dying in numbers close to those that they are bred in. People USUALLY don't neglect animals they paid a grand for. When people speculate on prices the way they tend to here the only thing they accomplish is talking down the price and landing pastels in rescues and backyard grave yards next to poor neglected iguanas (and normals).
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"Can't you just feed it vegetables"? No, no I can't you stupid hippie.

I understand that due to supply and demand prices inevitably fall but not by hundreds of dollars a season.
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"Can't you just feed it vegetables"? No, no I can't you stupid hippie.

I have got to agree 100% with you David. Very nicely stated.

Thanks!

I honestly feel what people seem to forget or just not see, is we all have different agendas. We all have similar goals, to produce amazing Ball Pythons. How we get to that point, how we got to that point, we all probably took similar but different roads to get there. The hobbyists just need to show a little respect for those that sell snakes for a living, but the big breeder needs to understand that I am not going to hold onto a snake that I cannot sell for $900, for six months, when I could sell it today for $600.

Dave

I know all about the small breeder because I am one. Believe it or not I have been raising and breeding ball pythons for almost 6 years now. I know what its like to work a full time job 40 hrs a week, come home each night and spend an hour out with the rats and then another 1-2 hours in the snake room. On top of that I also coach my 9 yr olds baseball team. Time is very hard to come by, but I really enjoy what I do and wouldn't change a thing (well I'd like to quit the full time job, but I don't see that happening. lol) Anyway, as I said I am not a big breeder although the snakes I produce are top notch specimens, I don't have the "big breeder name" to go with the snakes. I too have to sell for a little less, its what makes the difference to some people. If I were selling a snake for the same price as (insert big breeder name here) do you think anyone would buy from Steve who??? Exactly. Don't get me wrong though, the big breeders deserve every dollar they get for producing those amazing new designer morphs. It helps me to know that I will also be able to produce the new morphs of TODAY, in 3-4 years.

Remenber, it's not the big breeders who are concerned with the low prices of Pastels, Spiders or Mojaves. They already made their money on those morphs 4 years ago when WE all bought them. When I started Mojaves were $7500. Pastels were $1000 for males and $2000 for females and Spiders I think were $3000.

I know that when my $1000 male pastel breeds I may only get $700 for the whole clutch, but that buys alot of Mazzuri.

I say this: get what you can get for your babies and then re-invest. I'm not making much, but I'm still plugging away.

HAPPY HERPING
Steve

imho you are right their are three types of breeders but their are 5 types of buyers....the 3 types of sellers also are buyers and then 2 more types maybe more if you really want to break it down..
the biggest buyers for all snakes not just balls is the normal everyday person...this person loves animals probally has little to no knowledge of the animals but wants one for what ever reason( remember we were all this type of person once!!!!!) this person is not willing to pay the high price for animals like these because they dont see the need but in the long run they are the biggest purchaser of our stock in the long run.

the second type of person is the knowledgable non breeder. they want the animal for all its glory to appreciate it and enjoy it but not too be burdened with the whole process of breeding and raising food stock they want to sit and look at it.
these type of people want to pay the high price because they want the best of the best its a status thing something to brag about "my balls are worth more than your balls"
these people are the smallest group of purchasers in our markets.

so like what was said already those that have the best of the best should keep those prices high and those who dont i feel should price their animals accordingly. eventually its the everyday person that will start buying your stock in larger quantities and will turn the bigger profit for the breeder because MORE PEOPLE ARE BUYING MORE ANIMALS AT A SMALLER PRICE but in turn it leads to bigger profits.
and many people will say they do it for the love of it but alot of people complain about how what is doing what to ruin the markets and bring down the profits
but quanity works for both sides of the fence the less time you hold on too your animals is less time and money YOU have to put into that animal.
so imho if i can make more money by selling more animals and spend less time and money on those animals im winning all around
and dont forget the old saying "time is money"

lesstime = more money/family time/other hobbies
less money on feeders(or raisng your own) = less overhead and less time = more profit and more time
selling more at a lesser price = more money in the long run

1 snake price $1000= 1000 dollers in hand
10 snakes price $200= 2000 dollers in hand

" you do the math"
and decide what is a better buissness practice

adam
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hybrid breeders association
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.3 ghost corns
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 childrens python
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 albino banded cal king
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo

Alan - I think you raise a valid point - and I don't think this belongs in the Business section, as someone indicated, as it really is a general forum related question.

I would pretty much echo what Dave has already said - as well as include that for the most part what we are selling is not only a pet/animal but in most cases a business/investment and for any business you need to do your research - and there is no place other than forums where people in this industry can research their business/investment decisions. Personally, I don't see the honest answers to many of the questions asked as being nearly as damaging to the "industry" as the put downs and arguments that erupt in the thread. As people who have been around I would think it's our responsibility to help "newbies" in not only how to care for their animals but to help them grasp the business side as well if that is where they are looking to go. I don't think it's right to just push this rose colored money making venture where prices never fall and every snake produced is in high demand - a lot of people jumped into the industry in the past few years expecting a windfall but ended up selling out and moving on.

Also, I see a lot of people that don't even want to breed but are trying to figure out the best time or way to buy a cool snake - get trashed on - and that doesn't make the ball world look inviting to anyone.

Perhaps we need to start a forum relations 101 class?
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Tosha
JET Pythons

It should be a fun place that you can learn from - exactly.

The funny little secret is, the people who are so concerned about things that are said here hurting the bottom line really have no reason to worry.

There is NOTHING anyone can say that will really affect prices all that much.

The prices are what they are..

I can stand out in front of a BMW dealership all day and rant and rave that the cars are only worth 5k -is BMW worried?

No they understand they have a fine product, that is in demand and at the end of the day people will pay what the car is worth.

Wow I feel so miss informed...
I thought this was the General forum were we share the love of these wonderful animals and of this great hobby.

While I agree with you that "As people who have been around I would think it's our responsibility to help "newbies" in not only how to care for their animals but to help them grasp the business side as well if that is where they are looking to go." I also thought that Kingsnake put up a forum for discussing "business/investment" and allowing people to do "business research" and help people with "business/investment decisions." Now, again, I feel missed in formed.

So... I thank you for clearing up my confusion.

While my answer to Alan was not that his post should be in the business section, but why I thought people respond negatively to "those types of questions" (the questions referred to in his post) and why I rarely respond to them in this forum. I usually go to the business trends and issues and respond to business issues. Silly me...

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Larry Walker

WebSite

Would you please post you name or your company name so i can never un-knowingly sell you an animal... All you do is try to start problems in the "Ball Market" and community... and the best part is you dont even have the courage to SIGN YOUR NAME AT THE BOTTOM OF YOUR POST!

Thanks
JON DVORETZ
NEXT WORLD EXOTICS!
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

buying snakes from you, like I said I am all set for the next 2 or 3 years with my plans - thanks anyway.

I am not causing ANY trouble. I help many people out on here. I answer many of the same "NEWBIE IN HELP" questions time and time again. Long after other people are rude to the "NEWBIES", I am still helpful.

If a few WANNA-BE Ball Tycoons on here get uncomfotable when certain topics are discussed, I cant help that.

I dont choose to share my last name because I dont have to and I am not selling anything (I dont constantly attach a web address to my threads either). Maybe you want the whole world wide web to email you, I dont.

Thanks John,

Alan

Is this message board only dedicated to people who raise, care for and SELL Ball Pythons?

No, I've seen plenty of questions answered on care topics like feeding, temperature, size, etc.

I thought it was mainly dedicated to the hobbiest that loves these snakes and is intrigued with raising them and sharing his/her experiences and observations?

Well yeah, there's plenty of sharing going on here. Compared to the other forums, this is one of the most active.

Why, and this has been going on for YEARS, is it that any question that might be perceived as damaging to the bottom line met with ridicule?

Because most of those questions and answers are based on speculation. How'd you like to have quite a bit of money tied up in a business and have people constantly talk about how the price of your product was continually declining - all based on speculation.

I thought there was no such thing as a stupid question? However, when someone on here dares to ask questions like "What do you think Super Pastels will be priced at once the breeding season is in full swing" or "If I go to the HERP show on the last day with cash, do you think I can pick up a female spider for under $500?" is that person's question met with the "here we go agian" response and the idea treated as stupid or taboo ?

See answer given above. Also, those types questions have been covered repeatedly in this forum and they get the same range of answers each time.

Questions like or similar to this from someone who is not a professional Ball Python seller and just wants to get the best deal possible have everyright to be asked.

Actually most people are not "professional Ball Python sellers" in this forum, yet they have enough respect for other people's investments not to go speculating on what the lowest price a morph will sell for.

I make a pretty good living and I can afford a wide variety of the snakes listed in the classified section of this web site. However, I find it fun to raise and create them on my own and I want to pay a little possible to do this...plain and simple.

Good. Compare prices and photos in the classifieds, go to shows, talk to breeders, etc. You complain that this forum is only for sellers, then go and ask seller-related questions on it, rather then questions regarding raising and caring for ball pythons.

I know a lot of people on here have alot of money riding on their snake business and I really appreciate this (my wife owns a business too and I know what its like to have to make payroll every week - believe me), but this doesnt mean that EVERYONE that post here has to be in lock-step and collude to keep snake prices a high a possible ...

Making a statement like "EVERYONE" (and putting it in all caps) only illustrates how out-of-touch with reality you are. And implying that there's a price-fixing conspiracy in the ball python world shows that you really have a lot to learn about the snake breeding business.

Tim

Third Eye

I'd need 3 hours and a Power Point presentation to figure out what the heck you just wrote...

My reply to your post is pretty straightforward.

Since you're obviously trolling for attention, maybe it's not a Powerpoint presentation that you need...

Am I the only one finding this thread kind of silly?
-----
"The python has, and I fib no fibs,
318 pairs of ribs.
In stating this I place reliance
On a seance with one who died for science
This figure is sworn to and attested,
He counted them while being digested."
~Ogden Nash

jenny.thegreenes.org

"If you're happy and you know it,
Bomb Iraq!
If you cannot find Osama,
Bomb Iraq!
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq!

"Silly is as silly does Jen-nay"

LOL

Signed,

F. GUMP

I loved the holy insanity batman quote...LOL
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This is courage.. to bear unflinching what heaven sends. -unknown