Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had decided to try breeding some rats. So I go to my local pet store and pick up a large male and three large females. I place them together in a 20 gl. tank and wait.
After a month and a half no babies and the male dies. I purchase another male, not quite as big as the first but again a large. Its been almost two months and still no babies. I thought two of the females were prego (huge stomachs) so I seperated them out to seperate tanks almost three weeks ago and nothing. Am I missing something?
A co-worker ask if it is possible for the original breeder to breed or render the original rats sterile. Any suggestions? Where would be the best place to get good breeder stock? I know the guys at the pet store are really kean on the idea of my breeding my own feeders so they are of no help.

Thanks in advance, Jeff

Try down grading to one male and two females. I'd start with babies and raise them - they're sexually mature at 5 weeks of age, so getting the larges usually means you're getting old rats. Depending on the petstore and where they get their feeders, there's a pretty good chance the large rats at your petstore are just ex-breeders - and that's why they're large.

Try getting a younger trio. I know I've had success by getting smalls, raising them myself for a month (time to settle in and get used to surroundings, etc), and then introducing a male that I got at around the same time.

Side note on Nutrition - I've had much greater success and much healthier rodents (and gigantic litters - my female mouse had 14 babies her first time!) by giving them leftover people food and some bones every so often.

As far as sterilizing the rats before they get to the petstore - unlikely. Costs money to sterilize an animal, and they're not gonna make enough profit ona 6 dollar rat to want to spend money sterilizing it before it gets sold.

~jenny
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"The python has, and I fib no fibs,
318 pairs of ribs.
In stating this I place reliance
On a seance with one who died for science
This figure is sworn to and attested,
He counted them while being digested."
~Ogden Nash

jenny.thegreenes.org

"If you're happy and you know it,
Bomb Iraq!
If you cannot find Osama,
Bomb Iraq!
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq!

Thanks Jenny, this all started when I bought a lactating female and 4 pups. The theory at the time was I could buy a half a dozen or so pups and keep them alive until i needed them and i wouln't have to run to the pet store every couple of days. I have kept several young females (my kids think they are cute) which are now about two/two 1/2 months old. They have been with several small males (prior to feeding) and still nothing. I have since moved the young females in with the large male when I removed the other females and have seen no signs of breeding. I will try reducing the number of females per male and get another smaller/younger male and set up another group. See if that helps. Right now I am feeding them rat chow only, but i will try adding some variety to their diet.

Thanks Jeff

Also - sometimes the females just might not be in heat. I honestly don't know what triggers a female rodent into going into heat, although its something I should probably look up, lol.

Just a thought as to why your male feeders never managed to get lucky before they got munched.

~jenny
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"The python has, and I fib no fibs,
318 pairs of ribs.
In stating this I place reliance
On a seance with one who died for science
This figure is sworn to and attested,
He counted them while being digested."
~Ogden Nash

jenny.thegreenes.org

"If you're happy and you know it,
Bomb Iraq!
If you cannot find Osama,
Bomb Iraq!
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq!

I agree with jenny start with younger ones. It takes a little longer to grow up, nut you know how many times they have had babies and how many.. Most pet stores sell retired breeders for food. Thoses rats and mice have breed all they can already.

Thank you, i am going to try a smaller male. I have four females that i bought as pups/fuzzies and they are now pretty good size. I will tell you though I don't think any of the "large rats I bought were very old. Even the first large male I bought was not as large as the lactating female w/pups I bought. they sell smalls/just weaned for $2.00, meds which look like small adults ( they have lost that rounded/pup nose), but only slightly larger then a small for $2.50 and larges are $2.75. A large male measures about 4-5 inches without tail. I wouldn't think that a male of that size is much more then two three months old, but I could be wrong.

Jeff

They vary in size. I have a female that is huge and a male that is way smaller I know he is a adult because I have had him for 9 months.He is a good breeder, My large female has 3 litters all 12 each time. that is cheap for rats my local place just upped thier prices to 3.50 for a small and 5.00 for a large. Rat pups they want 2.50. And thier stuff is not the healthiest looking stuff. I am glad I breed my own. Only problem I have is my kids thy love the babies, all my rats are handled, I can not keep the kids away from them, I have to feed when they are not here on weekends.

I have my own snake room finally, and I have one vision ball rack so far , I am in the begging process of having a website designed so I can start my hobby/business, the only problem that I have is that my soon to be wife who I love dearly who loves my hobby/business and the ball pythons will not let me have live rodents in the house do you all have any suggestions , one soultions is to only feed them frozen/thawed rodents but I prefer to feed my ball pythons live, any advice and suggestions?

If you keep the males to a minum, It is not to bad with smell. I also breed mice and I just keep two max, and noone who comes to my house can tell that I breed mice or rats.If oyu can do it in a part that is not used often maybe she will agree, also tell her that you will take full responsibilty for clean up and such.. My husnband wanted a puppy for x mas, guess who does 90% of the work..Me.

If its not too expensive for you, try getting a shed and put an a/c unit in there. You really don't have to worry about it getting too cold, but if it gets too hot....fageddaboutit. They won't last, much less breed. I breed my own and have no problems at all. They breed very well if its cool. They seem to slow down if its warmer than 85. Mice like it even cooler than the rats. I also keep a large fan on them as well. Oh, one other thing. If you go this route make sure you put an exhaust fan to help make it easier on you when you go in there. Mice can stink it up 5x more than rats.

Steve

rats are weaned at 21 days.......a 4 or 5 inch "pet shop" large can be one month old.......

.....old males get lazy........(I resent that).....

.......kill them off after 6 months of breeding.....more or less.......if they stop throwing good litters get rid of them...

litters are from 9 to 16...........(23 is a big litter)....

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.........some bones are ok......no starch or sugars or fats..........

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Jenny, According the research I;ve done a female comes into heat every five days. That along with a 21 day gestation period would lead me to believe that a female should need no more then a month to breed and have babies. But apearently I am wrong.

Also I did have one little male that humped everything in sight. Guess I should have kept him.

Jeff

NO people food ...fat rats breed less........and less babies.....

feed them rat chow.....lab chow.......even dog food.....and don't overfeed them......

YES buy smaller rats....young larges not huge jumbos.....they will breed better.......

YES you can put them all together anytime......rats don't fight like mice.......males maybe but you can throw any female in with a male and they don't fight....

YES one male can handle 20 females even,........wouldn't we all love that.......well.....anyways........

.........tanks or lab cages or racks???........

NO cedar shavings........

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People food is fine in moderation. I'm talking a weekly to monthly treat, not an every day addition. I don't think the sewer rats in New York (which breed prolifically, I'm told) care about people food being 'bad' for them...

~jenny
-----
"The python has, and I fib no fibs,
318 pairs of ribs.
In stating this I place reliance
On a seance with one who died for science
This figure is sworn to and attested,
He counted them while being digested."
~Ogden Nash

jenny.thegreenes.org

"If you're happy and you know it,
Bomb Iraq!
If you cannot find Osama,
Bomb Iraq!
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq!

sewer rat, river rat,field rat, wild rat, Norway rat, brown rat, etc etc etc are all the exact same thing as domesticated Norway rat............EXCEPT they get exercise.,,........

.........anyways...yea...I read it that you were feeding all human food and waste foods..........

sometimes is ok .......but they get so spoiled they will bite you in anticipation of a treat they get so greedy .......and they can get fat......

........anyways.........rats will breed like crazy one month and stop for no reason.......

,..,good luck.........
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to add to this about the no ceder...no pine also

use aspen or something like carefresh or yesterdays news

I've used pin for all rodents for 17 years now and years ago I used it also........

........I had no problems........

...I knew people that used pine for snakes for years.......

even snakes worth thousandsssss
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I use pine for my furry beasties without any issues. This includes the rat(s), mice, gerbil, and bunny. Never had a respiratory infection or any other illness, other than some rats several years ago who got mammary gland tumors.

~jenny
-----
"The python has, and I fib no fibs,
318 pairs of ribs.
In stating this I place reliance
On a seance with one who died for science
This figure is sworn to and attested,
He counted them while being digested."
~Ogden Nash

jenny.thegreenes.org

"If you're happy and you know it,
Bomb Iraq!
If you cannot find Osama,
Bomb Iraq!
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq!

Jenny is right.You probably got old breeders.We breed our own and we usually cycle our breeders every 6-9 months.It takes a lot out of a male who breeds many females.They age very quickly.Start out with something young raise it up yourself it doesn't take long for them to mature and breed.Best of luck.Kim

I really can't tell from the information you posted, but if I were to guess, I would suspect that maybe the temps are too high for your rats to breed inside the aquarium? Three rats in a glass aquarium that is inside can result in temps inside the aquarium getting pretty hot, especially if it is in a place that gets light through a window. Rats breed best at about 55-60 degrees and production starts dropping off when temps get much above 75 degrees.
Grant

Thanks Grant, they are in my garage. No sun light, artifical only. The temps in there have been in the low 40's to upper 70's over the last three months since I started this little project. usually stays in the low 80's in the summer time (morning sun only). Being in the house wouldn't be much better because we usually don't set the A/C below 82/83 degrees. I live on the West coast of Florida and its pretty warm for most of the year, so not much I can do there. And I can tell you my wife would not allow them in the house anyway.

Jeff

Guess that shoots my temp theory down. Unless they are old retired "worn out" breeders I wouldn't have a clue as to the problem. I have had problems getting mouse breeding colonies established because the kill each other(they are mean little buggers unless established as a colony) but have never had any problems getting rats to produce, and I raise a couple hundred a week. Anyway, good luck.
Grant

Grant, I don't think that shoots it down just another piece of the puzzle. Where are you located. Where do you keep your rodents. And what do you feed them. I just found an interesting article. (See link) I have been feeding my nothing but rat chow. I think i am going to add some fresh leafy greens though.

Jeff
Link

Interesting article.
I live in Vermont. I keep my rats in a well insulated but unheated room that I constructed in a barn. I open windows and open up the ceiling except in winter. Body heat from the rats keeps the room above 45 degrees all winter even when temps are below zero outside. I feed my rats a combination of Harlan rodent block, low protein low fat dry dog food, corn, and sunflower seed. I keep then in home made racks that use mortar mixing tubs (5 rows of 3 to a rack) and I keep 1 male and 4 females in each tub, but I think this year I am going to build a couple more racks and lower the ratio to 1 to 3. I remove weanlings and grow them out in stainless steel "laboratory racks". I change the shavings once a week in summer, and in winter change once every 10 days as they don't drink and pee as much when it's cooler.
Good luck
Grant

Interesting. I wonder if the extract can be mixed into their drinking water.

Jose

That article was from 1923. I'm sure that rat chow has been updated since then, lol.

This line tipped me off ;o):

"Vitamins," now so popular, were unknown ten years ago.

n/p

Got me on that one. I didn't expect to see such an antiquated article on Time.com. Funny nonetheless.

Jose
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4.40 normal BPs
1.0 pastel BP
1.0 yellow belly BP
1.0 het albino BP
1.0 het pied BP
1.1 albino BPs
1.1 sunglow/anery corns
0.0.1 sunbeam
0.1 66% het stripe red tail boa
0.0.2 Strawberry hermit crabs
1.0 parakeet
1.0 spoiled rotten dog (Diego)
a crap load of rats and mice

Wow, that sucks. I thought I may have some what of an answer to the problem. I guess you only see what you want to see. I think I will still add fresh veggies to their diet though. They really seem to like the romaine.

Jeff

I used to keep hamsters when I was little then I got rid of them. In high school my science class had a pet hamster and it really smelled. I decided I would never keep rodents from that experience. The class cleaned its cage every week minimum sometimes every 3-4 days.

Do hamsters smell a lot worse than other rodents?

How often do you need to change rat bedding for it not to smell?

Can you use newspaper?

In the long run is it actually cheaper to breed them after spending money on feeding and bedding the rats? You can get frozen for good prices, so do you really save that much if you aren't breeding hundreds of rats and only have a few of them? I don’t have any snakes that are eating XL rats so small, medium and large rats are still reasonably priced for me and I do bulk k orders

To be honest at this point I have spent far more on them then they have given back. I also Buy frozen in bulk, about 300 mice and 100 weaned rats every two months or so. The problem is that I have a few females that will only eat live. But believe me once everyone starts eating full force again I will try to switch them over as well. But at this point it is more of a challenge then being practical. Also my kids find them very fascinating and I would have to admit that I do to (little buggers. Not to mention that the 32 snakes I have now will continue grow in size and numbers and starting now only helps getting everything set up and the kinks worked out. The male and several females in a 20L are cleaned anytime I can smell urine when I walk by (5-7 days). The single females in a 10G get cleaned once a week. No big deal.

Jeff

My current rat project is less than a month old. I was able to pick up 2 pg females from my pet store.

My rats are in tanks in my (home)office & I fuss with them daily. Because we can esily see them, & we play with half of them, lol, I was able to catch my first pg rat eat a baby less than 5 mins after she had it. I never saw a big litter, so I assume she ate all of them & I only caught the last show, lol. A week later my second pg mom had a litter of 9 & they are doing great 1 week later.

Perhaps you lost some babies & didn't know.

Also, I removed the male immediately after finding the half eaten baby. Maybe that is why my second litter is healthy?

I know my daddy mouse takes great care of all the litters he sires. He cleans them & keeps them warm & brings food to the moms.

I only bred rats 1 other time, 15 yrs ago & we removed that male from the tank b4 the kids were born & that mom had a healthy first litter.

I can only say what happened to me.

I tell you that I thought the same thing, that is why when I saw 2 females getting what I thought were big bellies I moved them each to their own tanks. Its been almost 3 weeks and their bellies get big and then look small. Some how seems to coincide with feeding time. I have since cut back on the amount of food I give them at one time. And i just now gave them some romaine lettuce, Like a buzz saw through balsa wood. See if a change in diet helps.

Jeff

np

Hey Jeff, I have been having the exact same problem. I started off with pet shop rats and have had a few die on me and no babies in 3 months. I have since mixed in some rats I obtained from a breeder and have noticed a lot of mating activity. They also appear to be more healthy. I am keeping them in a homemade rack in my garage. I feed them Mazuri rodent chow, sam's choice puppy kibble, seed mix, and veggies. Sex ratio is 1:4 in each mortar mixing tub. Please post when your rats finally produce for you.

Jose
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4.40 normal BPs
1.0 pastel BP
1.0 yellow belly BP
1.0 het albino BP
1.0 het pied BP
1.1 albino BPs
1.1 sunglow/anery corns
0.0.1 sunbeam
0.1 66% het stripe red tail boa
0.0.2 Strawberry hermit crabs
1.0 parakeet
1.0 spoiled rotten dog (Diego)
a crap load of rats and mice

Thanks Jose, I have been feeding just the Mazuri rat chow but I gave them some romaine lettuce last night and they loved it. I will continue to try different veggies.
And I will post when I get some babies.

Jeff