Reptile & Amphibian Forums

1st off, for those of you who have kept up with this situation, can you please tell me if you think I've slammed her in any way - I don't even recall mentioning a name on this forum. I'd hate to think my hands have run away with my mouth (did I say that right?) But, if I have typed evilness, please let me know.

Now, onto the 2nd update:

Well, although I still believe some mistake was made, the breeder is still just as sure it is NOT the same baby. It is a mute point now anyway, she has alerted me that she has sold the dragon and that the buyer believes they are different dragons as well. She even posted a neat little note in the classifieds saying she will tell you the truth behind me. So, please email her for that truth - it seems she would rather say it over email than over this forum. And doggone it, I want to know the truth about me!! I have tried to be a big sweetheart over the whole deal and even defended her at times, what more could I do? When she thought I was making up that other people believed the dragons were the same too I even told her to come to this forum and see.

Here's the last responce I received from her (her name is being left off on purpose):

It is not the same dragon. I am not even going to deal with this anymore. So you just go to whatever forum you want, I don't care. It is NOT the same dragon. It is not even the same clutch. I have sold the female, and given all the emails and questions, even the buyer feels it is NOT the same dragon. I wanted her opinion before closing the sale. Feel free to slam me where you want, what goes around comes around. It sure would be the decent thing of you to state YOU allowed an alternate for absolute positive sexing purposes and I offered full refund, including ALL shipping charges but YOU wanted to keep the dragon, and she is a NICE dragon. Have a nice day!

My responce back:

I'm glad you got what you were asking for her, she was surely worth it.
You are right, if you read all the posts you would have seen that I refused to send her back. I am not going to reship a dragon - it is too stressfull. Yes, the female I got from you is nice. I've said that time and time again. But, I also said I wanted the other female if you found her and you agreed to that. I know it was the same dragon, as sure as you feel it is not. I believe a mistake was made, it happens to everyone. I only sought acknowledgment, but that isn't going to happen. I did not say ship me whatever dragon you want as long as it is female; I would have wanted to see a pic first. I don't buy anything without a picture. You didn't give me the option, you went ahead and sent a different dragon. When I told you about it, you thought you had sent the right female. Mistake, easy as that. So, you can't say I allowed you to send her to me, because I didn't know I was getting a different dragon. I did allow it by keeping it, but made sure to point out I still wanted the other female I thought I was getting.
I'm sorry you feel such great animosity towards me. I never slammed you or bad mouthed you; I even defended you. I only sought other's opinions to see if my eyes were seeing right.
You have very beautiful dragons. Congrats on them.
Best wishes,
laura
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Ok, the breeder says she didn't make a mistake but was still willing to make it right for you by refunding your money upon return of the animal.

You say she made a mistake but are still happy with the dragon. Due to your own opinion of acceptable levels of stress etc (not saying they are right or wrong just that they are your opinion) you decide to keep the dragon.

Deals done. You weren't 100% satisfied and the breeder offered to rectify it with what she felt comfortable with since she felt no wrong doing on her part.

Opinions on a public forum about judgemental calls such as this are just that "opinions". For every 10 you say you can get one way another person can find 10 that say the other way. I'm not putting blame on either person but online sales is a two way street. The seller provides accurate representation of what they are selling (even your posts lean towards the direction that the breeder truly believes this, as you are not negative about the breeder). The seller needs to go with the breeders policies about returns and dissatisfaction about the sale (where these posted on the breeders site or if not discussed before money changed hands).

I'm a very open person. I understand where you are coming from and on anything else I would agree with you.
My only concern is that the pics comparing the animals clearly showed they were the same animal. Did you view them all? She told me I could have the dragon when it was found. I never said I accepted the dragon I received in INSTEAD of the other - then, as you said, it would have been a done deal. But, the breeder did not give accurate representation because I never saw a pic of the baby before it was sent. Would I have bought it if I had been given the option? I don't know, I had my heart set on the other one. Was I going to return it? No, I would hate to do that with an animal. My posts have had nothing to do with returns and return policies.This is something she keeps bringing up too. That was never an option. It had to do with the fact that she said I could have the dragon I originally purchased when found. Because the markings are the same on both dragons (markings are like fingerprints), indeed she was found. But that is neither here nor there, I do not care if I got the dragon, all I wanted was an acknowledgement that it was the same dragon as the one I purchased. Even an "I'm sorry I posted the wrong pic back then." I don't care what excuse is used, only that one be given.
I actually begged for someone to point out what is different about the dragons, I wanted to be proven wrong.
I'm sorry you feel I've been petty, that wasn't my intent.
I guess you are right about opinions, so I will have to have the pictures professionally analyzed so that I can settle it in my mind once and for all. I just want it proven that eyesite is not off. Hate to think I need to get glasses..they just don't look right on me.
Thank you for your opinion.
Take care.
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Your not shipping the dragon back is acceptance (legally) of the purchase. Public opinion may differ (that's a whole gray area).

I'm taking your posts (as we only see one side here) as that the breeder doesn't feel a mistake has been made. Even so they have offered to rectify the issue within certain guidelines (ones that are standardly acceptable in many industries). So a "professional" analyzes of the photos (curious which expert witness will get that call? Johnny Cochran or Kevin Dunne ) will not change anything legally.

With proper shipping the stress to the animal is minimal. I've had animals delivered in fewer than 14 hours most of which is spent asleep. Between traffic and security screening I think it's more stressful for a human to fly across country than a dragon.

Again, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. If a mistake was made and a reasonable refund/fix was offered by the breeder there isn't much of an issue. Your only alternative is to state that the breeder knowningly switched dragons which would change the complete tone of all your posts.

I am not trying to pursue anything legally. I never had any intension of it and never threatened it.
I did not mean to subject them to professional breeders..I've done that, they agree it is the same dragon. I mean to subject them to professional photo analizers - done through computers and such. It is for my piece of mind - so that I know I am not crazy in this matter.
I never said I take that dragon in exchange for the other - In fact, I said just the opposite. I do not want the dragon. I want the acknowledgement. Since that won't happen from her, I am hoping it will happen when it's analized.
I personally have never been shipped via UPS, but even if you don't think it causes much stress, I know the shippers are not very delicate with the packages. Their whole world is turned upside down (litteraly). Maybe their eyes are closed in misery or motion sickness? So, until I am ever shipped that way, I will just error on the side of caution and believe that they find it stressfull.
Maybe in some businesses what you said is true, but if I walked in with a sales ad and they were out of what was on sale and the manager told me when it came in I could still get the item for the sale price, you can bet that is what would happen.
You may email her for the low down scoop on me. Her email can be found in the classifieds with her ad. She is welcoming everyone to come talk to her and clear up all the "untruths" I've told. Hey - I want to know the truth behind me!! )
I really don't mind you backing her...I wasn't trying to pit me against her or anything of the sort..I do not want to think this was done on purpose because I don't like thinking negatively about anyone - I only wanted opinions on a picture, that is all. Did you ever review the pics?
You firmly believe ethically she handled things fine, I think ethically it could have been handled differently. We are at an impasse. But, life is full of impasses, it's what you make of them that count.
Peace,
Laura
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"I do not want to think this was done on purpose because I don't like thinking negatively about anyone"

This was my contention. You even state it wasn't done on purpose. My reading of your posts leads me to believe that the breeder doesn't think there was an error and is still trying to please you by giving a refund (taking away the need for verification of the photos). Your not allowing that as a personal choice. All the other stuff (personal behind the scenes gossip, professional photo anaylsis of a dragon, etc) is irrelevant.

I don't know the breeder or you so this is a purely analytical post and not a personal axe to grind or standing up for anyone.

My only reason for posting had nothing really to do with the breeder, but everything to do with the pics. I had to find out if I was imagining things or if they truly were the same dragon.
I don't want to think bad of anybody,but that doesn't mean everybody is 100% honest, just because I want to believe they are. My beliefs don't make the person.
Perhaps you wouldn't say that the dragons being the same is only an opinion (and a weak on at that by the way you are sounding)if you actually saw the pics.
Weither I should have gotten the dragon or not is not the point, the point is I think even you could not dispute they are the same dragon if you took the time to review the pics. Pics can also be seen at my link in the signature under the album comparison pics.
My main reason for posting is "Are they the same dragon" - I was going to proceed no further than that. that is why the pics are not irrelevant to me. They are wholly relevant.
Again, an impasse...I guess we can continue to go round and round, but it doesn't appear to be solving anything to either of us.
So, I am backing out of further rehashes gracefully, with my opinion state and yours noted.
Best wishes,
Laura
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On a side note, why do you sell online and ship dragons if you think they are suffering so badly through the trip? I couldn't knowningly do that.

I think with proper packaging any stress of shipment is entirely temporary and minimal. (I've seen the way carriers handle boxes so I'm not naive on their practices).

I will answer that since that has nothing to do with the issue we are at an impass at.

I do sell may dragons locally. Not all I have for sale has been posted and nearly all of my local sales have begun over the net - they saw my ad.

But, shipping is the nature of the beast. I am proud to be able say my lines run across country and even Canada. If there were some other way of getting them there I would - I think most of us would. I don't think very many of us like having to ship and I think I am not the only person who realizes shipping is a risk.

But, just because I make take the risk once, doesn't mean I will risk a double shipment. I only ship when I have to, not for the heck of it.

I hope this has answered your question satisfactorily, but I have a feeling nothing I could say would. But, at least I have tried.
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