Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wondering...

How many roadside herps do we as a group, or you as an individual actually encounter along Texas roads and right of ways. Also, what is the outcome of those encounters.

Specifically ...

1) How many do we/you rescue by removal from the road, then release?

2) How many do we/you photograph or otherwise observe while in any way touching or restricting their movement, then release (this number would obviously include those from above)?

3) How many do we/you remove from the wild?

My personal guestimates are:
1) 75-100
2) 200-300
3) 0 (5-10 if you include bagging for a photoshoot, then release w/i 24 hours)

Since TPWD regulations consider all of these encounters to be hunting, perhaps it would help put things in context to make our own distinctions and estimate some numbers.

I'd be willing to bet that we save the lives of FAR more animals than we remove from the wild. I'm guessing at a ratio of twenty rescues for every one capture. Doesn't sound to me like we are endangering wildlife populations.

I typically see 75-150 snakes per two week trip. Usually go home with only 0 to 3 snakes. I would estimate I move at least 50 snakes off the road every year.

Good point Eby...One night last August I rescued 14 and removed 0. Most of them were neonate Massasaugas coiled up on the road not going anywhere. It would have been 15, but unfortunately as I was removing one from the road, someone passed me and ran over a nice adult Atrox
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Snakes to the Max

1.2 Variable Kingsnakes
1.1 Grayband x Ruthveni
0.1 Western Massasauga (WC)
1.1 Jungle Carpet Pythons
1.1 Pastel Red-tail Boas
1.0 Lavender Motley Cornsnake
4.3 Hatchling Variable Kingsnakes
0.2 Hatchling Grayband x Ruthveni Kingsnakes
0.0.2 Baby Western Massasaugas (big surprise!)
1.1 Black Milksnakes
2.4 Honduran Milksnakes
1.3 Cornsnakes

I know that this will be an unpopular comment, but we need to be very careful about data we toss around. We do not want a reputation for pulling this stuff out of our ars end. After all, it was that type of data that got animals on the protected list, and is also that kind of data that got this bill rolling.

I would rather hit them with indisputable facts, up on side and down the other..

Lance

If we were going to use this as a basis of our main argument against the bill, then I understand your point. Otherwise, I disagree with your comment. I see nothing wrong with discussing this part of "roadcruising" It's a real part of what we do and the numbers don't come out of my "arse" as you said. I'm actually looking at the little yellow piece of paper that I jotted down the numbers and species. With notes of the snakes we remove from the road, along with pictures that show date and time, we could obtain this hard data if we really wanted to. But, I agree, it's not what's going to help us fight the bill...and I'm not here to argue. I'm willing to do whatever is deemed the best strategy to fight this unjust bill.

Max
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Snakes to the Max

1.2 Variable Kingsnakes
1.1 Grayband x Ruthveni
0.1 Western Massasauga (WC)
1.1 Jungle Carpet Pythons
1.1 Pastel Red-tail Boas
1.0 Lavender Motley Cornsnake
4.3 Hatchling Variable Kingsnakes
0.2 Hatchling Grayband x Ruthveni Kingsnakes
0.0.2 Baby Western Massasaugas (big surprise!)
1.1 Black Milksnakes
2.4 Honduran Milksnakes
1.3 Cornsnakes

That we have criticized the other side of this issue for implying that there were studies and data in the past. I would rather not fall into that trap ourselves if we can avoid it.

The fact is without trying to estimate numbers we have very good reasons to resist this bill. We know that a large contribution to academic understanding of native TX wildlife is due in part to our contributions. We also know that herping for dollars does not work and for the most part people here do not even try. We herp because we enjoy the recreational experience, it is the time spent not the animals taken.

I just think that any numbers or guesstimates could end up being a slippery slope for us down the road.

I was not looking at your Ars... I had replied to Eby and I think he saw the humor in it...

I was just playing devils advocate on the issue of what is data, and what isn't. My only concern is to sell and untarnished impression as we go.

Lance

I'm glad to hear you weren't "looking" at my Ars!
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Snakes to the Max

1.2 Variable Kingsnakes
1.1 Grayband x Ruthveni
0.1 Western Massasauga (WC)
1.1 Jungle Carpet Pythons
1.1 Pastel Red-tail Boas
1.0 Lavender Motley Cornsnake
4.3 Hatchling Variable Kingsnakes
0.2 Hatchling Grayband x Ruthveni Kingsnakes
0.0.2 Baby Western Massasaugas (big surprise!)
1.1 Black Milksnakes
2.4 Honduran Milksnakes
1.3 Cornsnakes

Does that mean he was looking at mine ???

I don't know...that's between you two! We have a don't ask, don't tell policy where I come from
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Snakes to the Max

1.2 Variable Kingsnakes
1.1 Grayband x Ruthveni
0.1 Western Massasauga (WC)
1.1 Jungle Carpet Pythons
1.1 Pastel Red-tail Boas
1.0 Lavender Motley Cornsnake
4.3 Hatchling Variable Kingsnakes
0.2 Hatchling Grayband x Ruthveni Kingsnakes
0.0.2 Baby Western Massasaugas (big surprise!)
1.1 Black Milksnakes
2.4 Honduran Milksnakes
1.3 Cornsnakes

LOL. Best laugh I've had today.

Back to the source of this thread, I did pull my numbers out of my "ars end". I keep "intending" to design a field observation data form, but I never get around to it. Perhaps if someone could send me a decent form, I wouldn't have to rely on W.A.G.s and Lance wouldn't be tempted to look at my "arse".

Were you looking at my bum? Cheeky monkey! How about NAFHA? North American Field Herpers Association? Locality data is sent in by field herpers from all states, but specifically shows at least county,time,and species. That is real data with pics. I know I pull hundreds of herps off the road yearly, just off 77S! Even toads! I have about 50 animals but only 28 have been collected in the wild in the last 5 years from all over Texas. I have photographed 68 species of herps in the last 2 years and plan to get 'em all someday!
Todd Hughes

Lance,
You're right that we should not try to pass off any rough or estimated numbers as "data". I'm looking at it more as anecdotal comments. Simply saying that we rescue more than we harvest should be sufficient.

I record every single snake I encounter in my "little black book(s)". I also tally every snake I encounter on a file called "year species list, 2007"(etc). My data is here and available. I can also list for them every specimen that I've donated to UTACV or TAMU over the past 20 years or so as well.

Troy

Last year, I encountered 565 snakes (a slightly below average year). Of those, probably 75-80% are from Texas. Of those, almost all are from public right of ways. So, of those, essentially 400 are from public right of ways.

1) How many do we/you rescue by removal from the road, then release?

Considering that about 100 of the above are found on right-of-ways under roadside rocks, then I probably escort at least 200 off the roadway, depending on how busy the road is. If its not busy, I leave the animal in place.

2) How many do we/you photograph or otherwise observe while in any way touching or restricting their movement, then release (this number would obviously include those from above)?

Now that I have a digital camera, probably somewhere around 100 or more snakes photographed per year.

3) How many do we/you remove from the wild?

Last year, I kept 1 milk, 2 alterna, and 1 pictigaster that I found in the wild on public right of ways of Texas. So last year, the number was 4.

Question 4) (not asked, but important) How many roadkilled snakes did I find last year?

It was actually a slow year for DORs (because it was mostly a slow year for road-cruising) and I found 145 DOR snakes last year in Texas. Of these, I preserved approximately half of them. Note, I did not count DOR lizards, turtles, frogs, or salamanders.

Troy