Reptile & Amphibian Forums

One of the things that we (as a hobby) need to do is to make sure that we (like deer hunters) can point back and say "this is how we support herp conservation".

There is a lot of talk on here about "economics of west Texas" and "rights" but a lot less talk about how we give back.

Those of us who collect data and specimens for universities are contributing to our knowledge base . . . but can we do more?

Several herp societies have "Grants-in-herpetology" - do you support those societies and their Grants? Can you do more?

TPWD has a Wildlife Diversity License plate that many of us bought. . . but can we do more?

I think a key in this fight (and in rehabilitating our hobby in the eyes of TPWD and the legislature) is for us (in the future) to be able to say "we support herp conservation" and "let us count the ways" - that will certainly carry more support with the urban conservationist-bend representatives than "ecomomics of small west Texas towns"

Perhaps we could get Kingsnake and other herp businesses to set up a conservation fund like the "NRA percent" - when I buy firearms supplies on line, there is a place to donate to the NRA every time I make a purchase . . .

Troy

Troy,

Again thinking past the HB 2414 issue.

As I recall, TP&W already has a "non-game stamp" of some type. I think it used to sell for $25.00 BUT is was never "required" for anything. It was just a way for the hunter or the fisherman to contribute to the TP&W Wildlife Diversity Program....as in a donation.

Based upon your dealings with the TP&W how receptive do you think they would be to the concept of still requiring a hunting license to collect herps but to also require their "non-game stamp" to be attched to the hunting license for it to be valid for herp collecting. This would provide another $25.00 per year from every licensed herper going directly into the wildlife diversity/non-game program. Presently the only income that this stamp generates for thm is from people who buy it just as a means to make a donation to the wildlife diversity program. All the "hunters" at the rattlesnake roundups would also be required to have this non-game stamp on their hunting licenses and thereby contribute additional funds into the wildlife diversity fund. This would essentially work like a "migratory bird stamp" on the regular hunting license and be additioanl income for TP&W that would be dedicated to their wildlife diversity program.

Another thing that might or might not be acceptable would be to trash their present permit programs for herps and simply put annual bag and possession limits on "all non-protected" (endangered or threatened species)like the State of Arizona does. Common species (such as atrox) might have unlimitd bag and possesion limits, while more uncommon species might have an annual bag limit of perhaps 8 or 10 animals with a posssession limit of 20, and rare species might have an annual bag limit of perhaps 2 with a possession limit of 4 to 6. Captive-bred offspring would not count toward the possession limits providing that they are disposed of within a reasonable time frame...perhaps 3 to 6 monnths. This type of system seems to work well in Arizona for all non-protected species. If you wanted to collect a species that is protected as endangered or threatened, they could still require a special permit for those.

Just thinking of some possible ways that som of this could all work out better for everybody on both sides of some of these issues.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

They are nothing but trouble for anybody breeding animals. Absolutely counter productive to conservation through captive propagation.

What if you want to hold back a couple of clutches of something to see what the offspring would look like when they mature?

What if you were working with several localities for a species and doing so would mean exceeding your limit (especially if you had just 3-4 animals per local)?

What if you specialized in on species as a matter of personal interest and wanted a large breeding stock?

In truth possession limits do nothing more than look good on paper, they are as useful as another hole in the head. I would say make no such suggestion, especially knowing that particular concern in Texas is addressed by a commercial permit system already. No need to double up regulations on the same concern.

Lance

Not liking the idea of having to buy yet another stamp or permit, unless the "old" permit is done away with. I'm with Lance on this one, the possession limit would hurt, especially on locale specimens.
Todd Hughes

Todd, I understand yours and Lance's views on this. I'm just tossing out some ideas of things that might (or might not) work better in the future. Possibly it could be the non-game stamp thing without incorporating possession limits. While we would all rather not have to pay for anything more, I would much rather buy a non-game stamp for $25 every year instead of always having to battle issues like the current one and possibly be forking out even more money at times to help pay some lobbyist to wine and dine some politicans to see things our way. At least I know where my $25 is going when I buy a non-game/wildlife diversity stamp. Also, TP&W wardens are much more accustomed to working with hunting licenses and the various stamps that go with them than they are with permits. I'll lay you odds that the majority of wardens in Texas have never even seen one of the present permits.

I think we need to be looking at some long range resolution to the conflicts that we seem to be having with TP&W. These issues have been occuring since back in 1974 that I can recall. That was the year that they (TP&W) went through a bunch of price lists from reptile dealers and they added every Texas species that sold for more than about $30 to a protected list of herps that you could not collect, possess, sell or trade. There was no biological science or study involved in those decisions...just simply if it could be sold for more than $30 it got protected automatically. It took several years to get that mess undone. Similiar issues with TP&W have continued to crop up from time to time since then.

After the dust settles on this matter, I think we need to try to find a system that will work for both us and them that both sides can agre to commit to sipporting. For TP&W, if the non-game stamps are putting money into their wildlife diversity program I would think they would step up and support such a system. When you buy a hunting license that money goes into game programs not the wildlife diversity program. Perhaps we could find a way to do away with the bureaucratic record keeping associated with the current peremit system that is a pain for us and for them...we might not be able to do away with it for the commerical collectors, I dont know.

Anyway just brainstorming.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

TP&W has about ONE person that knows anything about Reptiles and Amphibians.

OK I'm picking on them I admit, but the truth is they are NOT Herpetologists for the most part.

But you have to wonder about the agenda when they'd rather shut you down than do their jobs and manage the resource. Catch 22, how can they manage something they don't know much about?

Joe,

You'll get no argument from me about that point. I don't think TP&W has EVER had more than one person that knew much of anything about herpetology. Unfortunately, TP&W is one of the few state agencies that is essentially self-funded. In other words for the most part, they do not get a lot of funding from the state's general fund. Most of their funding is generated by the agency itself in the form of license sales, permits, stamps, a percentage of all TP&W fines, etc. Most of their programs are expected to pay for themselves. Without a sizable amount of income being generated from the herp sector they will never be in a position to have more than one herpetologist on staff. Sometimes. I'm surprised that they keep one on staff at all. I'm sure that there are some folks at TP&W that wish that we would just go away. Since they are hamstrung and can't really manage the program, I suspect that their approach is to just let the LE Division enforce us out of existance.

In regards to why the TP&W wardens don't want to enforce trafffic laws and say that is not their function, that is really more a question about money also. Texas Game Wardens have been full-blown fully-commissioned state peace officers since 1957 and have the same enforcement authority as any other state peace officer. They all take the same oath of office as all other peace officers in the state do and swear to uphold and enforce all laws....not just TP&W laws. One of the primary reasons that they and the agency are not interested in doing so is that if they arrest a DWI, write a traffic citation, etc. none of the fine money from those fines goes into the TP&W coffers...it all goes into the local county coffers. However, if they make an arrest or write a citation for some violation of the TP&W law or rules, then a certain percentage of that fine money goes back to TP&W instead of going to the county. That is most probably one reason that they want to deal with the purported traffic-safety issue with a new road-hunting law that would be a TP&W violation as opposed to using existing state traffic laws that do not generate any money for TP&W. It all seems to come down to an issue of money and putting money into the TP&W coffers.

With that kind of background, I don't ever see us getting into a much better position with them usless we can show them that somehow they can make a "well-run" non-game herp program to become basically self-sustaining. And what they have now and have always had is anything but a well-run program for herps.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

which is how Representative Hilderbran got in TP&W's pocket to begin with.

Then he has too much on his plate to Author TX H.B. No 2414 so he refers it to his buddy Representative Isett, who goes on to screw up the language causing Representative Hilderbran to amend the bill with the language that TP&W had instructed him to use.

You don't have to be Einstein to see where this came from and how it started but I'm not going to fill in the blanks at this time. I'm saving that.

Gerald, I totally respect your opinions here and you have been at it longer than I have, I am just bummed because I have been buying a hunting license for 26 years now and if this system we have can't be kept then yeah, something new is called for but I don't see where I buy a license, buy a permit that specifically sets my bag limit and is way more than fair, then have to add a stamp (which I already have two of on my super combo) to do the same thing. Let's end the redundancy in the process as well, no double pay for thr same right. I wasn't around for what went down in the 70's and 80's, but I will be here now to see something good come of our hard work. I am all for supporting sound game management and want sound non game management as well.
Todd Hughes

Todd,

What I was suggesting was not to add the non-game stamp as something being required in addition to the current hunting license and permits. My thought waa to dump the permit system for the majority of us and replace it with the non-game stamp and the hunting license. I think the permit system would have to probably stay in place to deal with the truly commerical collectors (that being those people that collect and sell wild-caught animals). I don't know that I would support a progam that would require a commerical permit for breeders that are selling only captive born animals. Outside of the true commerical collectors who take wild caught stock to sell commerically, I would think that the hunting license with a non-game stamp would work for the remainder of us and at the same time produce more income for TP&W that would be dedicated to their non-game/wildlife diversity programs. Basically TP&W would have to looks at us as two different groups....those of us who are essentially sportsmen which would be most of us and the commerical guys taking wild caught herps to sell. It would be much the same way that they now seperate sports fishermen from the commerical fishermen who sell their catch for money.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

as far as I know there is no limit on game wardens and you can fish for them w/o a license. bait could get expensive though.

ROFLMAO!!!! Again, just what kind of bait does it take to catch a warden?
Todd Hughes

>>One of the things that we (as a hobby) need to do is to make sure that we (like deer hunters) can point back and say "this is how we support herp conservation".
>>
>>There is a lot of talk on here about "economics of west Texas" and "rights" but a lot less talk about how we give back.
>>
>>Troy

When we buy a license we are giving back. That money is used for everything from farm raising birds and fish to maintaining their firing ranges. Tax dollars pay for everything else. The economy issue is very important to the locals. Del Rio will always be able to do well regardless but little towns like Comstock would have no motel without the hunters and fisherman. Unfortunately us out of staters can't make a huge impact by collecting data and such because we don't spend as much time in the field. It almost seems like the state has a hidden agenda and this is the first step to something worse. Possibly a total shutdown in the future? Too bad we don't have an organization to help us fight. If we carried guns instead of snake hooks people would listen a bit more. We're the exception, not the norm when it comes to the hunting community because what we do is still loathed by the average individual because they just don't understand it.
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Steve W.

I think one thing we need to do is to petition the commission to require the Nongame stamp ($5) as an addition to the regular hunting license in order to differentiate ourselves from the "regular" hunters.

We've asked TPWD for this for years. I think we have been asking the wrong people (e.g. TPWD staff) and instead should take it to the top - the Commissioners.

I'm also going to start donating 5% of my sales from captive-breeding to the Texas Herpetological Society's Grants-in-Herpetology fund. I encourage anyone else who is a captive-breeder in Texas (or elsewhere) to do something similar - pick a charity, and give something back.

Troy