Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is my first year breeding milks and I am wondering how often do you witness copulation with hondurans after introducing them? I have been pairing my hondurans for the past week and I have yet to see any copulations. Am I being too impatient? I am trying to only take a look at them a few times a day... am I just missing locks up perhaps? Thanks!
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Balls, Milks & Coxi!

I don't think that your experience is that unusual. We have some Hondurans that we have never seen hook up, but they always produce. Others seem to hook up as soon as you put them together.

Good Luck!

Joe Exposito

Thanks Joe.

I am only working with a small group of adults right now so my pairings are limited. Perhaps with a larger group I would have seen more lock ups! Thanks for your comments!
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Balls, Milks & Coxi!

Erik,

About 7 plus years ago, I started with a very small collection of hondurans and my collection now has grown quite a bit. However, I have ALWAYS witnessed copulation among intended pairings. So, I am wondering if in your case, other factors are causing the non-interest between your hondos.

The first factor maybe what happened to me 5 years ago. Seven years ago, I purchased a pair of nice hondurans. They were eating aggressively so after 2 years, they were of breeding size. When I tried to pair them up after doing the brumation period correctly and introducing them a few days after the female's post brumation shed, there was zero interest from both of them. To cut the long story short, the male turned out to be really a female. (When you have 2 females together, they will not act aggressively against one another). Anyway. I guess when I purchased them as hatchlings, I did not bother checking their sexes and just assumed that they were properly sexed by the seller. The following year, I "borrowed" another adult male honduran from the orginal seller and lo and behold, my two originals became gravid and produced hatchlings.

So, I guess I want to point out to you that be 100% sure that the two you are pairing up are male and female.

If you are sure for certain about their sexes, maybe other causes of non-interest are as follow:

- the female is not big enough to mate.

- the timing is not good for the female. The best time to introduce the female to the male is 3-14 days after the female sheds. Sometimes, that period does not work, meaning, the female really has to be ovulating. You can determine if she is ovulating by letting her crawl on your fingers and try to feel the underbelly as she crawls ( do not hold or squeeze as she will tighten up). What you are looking for would feel like hard "peas" and those are the eggs formimg that are waiting to be fertilized by the male sperm.

- temperature of the snakes. When you introduce them, make sure they are not "cold" by feel. If they were in the warmer side of the cage, then they will have the energy to show interest in mating, given the other factors above to be working of course.

Well, hope this helps a bit.

Good luck.

Ray

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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

Thanks Ray. I was thinking about sexes...

I have bought all of my hondurans from very well known breeders so I really wasn't too worried about sexes, but things can happen! Perhaps I will probe them.

Roughly what scale depths do males and females probe to? I am a python guy so I want to make sure I know the scale depths before I go ahead and probe them!

Other than sex, I cannot say that my situation falls into any of the other circumstances you have listed. All of my animals are large and were brumated correctly. I have not noted if the animals were on the cool or hot side when I introduced them but I will make sure to take that into account when I introduce my pairs again.
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Balls, Milks & Coxi!

Ok, that's good if you have done the brumation well. But it wouldn't hurt to verify the sexes of both by doing the probing. If you probe both and they are in fact of opposite sexes, you will be able to tell the difference in the number of scales into probing. The females usually are just a few scales, around 2, 3 or 4 the most, but the males when probed can go to up and about 8 or 9 scales. Just be careful when you probe because it is not an easy thing to do. You really got to not only know but confident enough to know how to really do it...have done it several times in the past. If you have not done it several times in the past, have a trusted friend who knows how to probe snakes do it for you. From what you tell me with your python experience, it seems like you'll be fine doing it.

Good luck.

Ray

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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

Yes I am pretty comfortable with probing... just wanted to make sure on scale counts.

I will be pretty disapointed if I find that my animals are different sexes than they were sold to me as...

As a matter of fact, one of the pairs I am working with was sold to me as a proven pair from a good friend... so I really don't think they are sexed wrong... perhaps I am doing something else wrong!

My brumation was Nov 1 to February 20th or so at an average temp of about 56-58F
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Balls, Milks & Coxi!

What response are you seeing when you introduce the snakes together? I always throw my male Hondos together before the first shed just to see if something happens. Sometimes it does, sometimes not.

Typically the male gets excited right away, he gets very twitchy movements, and it is obvious he is looking to get some. Normally it becomes a race around the perimiter of the enclosure with him rubbing all over the female. This typically happens to mine until the week of the female shedding.

Are you seeing this behavior, or do the two of them avoid each other?
Also some of my snakes are shy and will not breed if they are disturbed. I cover the front of their enclosure and check after a 1/2 hour and they usually are going at it.

When I introduce my pairs I do see my male twitching and trying to ride on the females back. They generally are found together when I peak in at them but I have just never seen them 'locked'...
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Balls, Milks & Coxi!

That's typically how I find mine. Normally they just have their tails entwined. As long as I see their tails entwined I record it on my cards as copulation. Also from my experience gravid hondos swell prety quick. One day she may look normal and 2 days later you can see the skin showing between her scales. I wouldn't write them off just yet.

Oh I am definitely not writing them off... I have talked to many people and some say copulation isn't seen often, some say it is. I will keep pairing my animals up and see what happens!
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Balls, Milks & Coxi!

Erik,
When and if you do see her swell up don't assume she is gravid.Many people make this mistake every year and then get slugs and just chalk it up as "oh well the male through blanks".
So many times just introducing them together will throw the female into a ovulation and alot of people will think the dead is done.Keep putting them together untill she starts going into the blue for her pre-lay shed.
Take a look at this pic.This female is ovulating big time and when they do they usually allow the male to climb on with little to no thrashing etc...
When they are thrashing about in the cage its the female throwing the male off "bucking" and she just isn't ready.

Hope this helps.
L8r Shannon

Well I'll be damned.... I put together one of my pairs when I got home from work about 2 hours ago and I just checked on them. Not sure if they are locked up 100% but it looks exactly like your picture Shannon... getting closer anyway!!!
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Balls, Milks & Coxi!

Hey Erik,

When you see the 2 tail intertwined and they have been motionless for 15 minutes or so (meaning, they are in exact same position the past 15 minutes), approach them and try to see if the male fleshy organ is connected to the female cloaca (just like the pic I enclosed or CLICK ON THE LINK). If you can't see it, wait a few more minutes since sometimes they slightly move and will expose it a bit. The best giveaway is even if you cannot see it, remember exactly where the tails in relation to the cage. That's because when they are done, you can usually find some spilled sperms...and if you have a microscope, you can even check whether they are good sperms or just blanks.

Ray

Image

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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=20055612

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Link

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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

Thanks guys I appreciate all your help!
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Balls, Milks & Coxi!