Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This sound like a lot of money but its not, in fact its half the price of any Asian monitor imports. Theirs no reason any wild monitors should be sold at ridiculous low prices, these are CITES animals and deserve to be treated as such. Dealers selling them cheep know what they are doing, they are targeting the mass, impulse buyers who will obtain the entire kit, the problem is these kits aren’t meant to be successful, if they where wed all be flooded with monitors.
In reality these cheep imports are exactly what turtles use to be, you buy one it dies, dispose of your cage, heat rock, bulbs and all, then some time later you see an other cute baby and start all over again.
This rings a bell? Of course as it’s the way these animals are marketed, they will keep being abused this way until we do something about it.

Just my opinion feel free to prove me wrong.

Bravo to Pro-Exotic…

For there leadership and hard work, they do not and will not abuse cheep imports.

I think it should be a $1000 minimum. No, $10,000; then we can be sure to fix it. Well obviously I care more than you. Wait, I care so much I think that captive 'owning' any animal is disgusting and speciest, so any potential pet 'owner' should be forced to attend a gov't run Animal Rights Training Class before a license is issued. Actually since it is all just a hobby, I have decided hobbies cant include live animals so forget it, no more pets.

Now back to reality...thousands and thousands of people around the world make their living and feed their families from the reptile trade alone.

There are bad parts of it sure, but it isnt all bad. There are many Pro-Exotics out there.

The market decides how it goes. If you dont like it, dont support it or support only cbb reptile dealers, dont make LAWS.

Pro-exotics is just as guilty as anyone for supporting imported reptiles. Just because they pick nice ones first, take good care of them and charge more doesnt change that in the least, yet you applaud their efforts? Wait I like how they do it as well, but why would I think I have the right to 'draw the line' for anyone else?

Why do you?

Why shouldnt a total ban on reptile 'ownership' be appropriate?

Oh that's someone elses 'line' you dont agree with. Hmmm.

/sigh...

Tom

Theirs nothing excessive about my post, its reasonable.

You blow everything out of proportion, if your to emotional to discus this with common sense why don’t you avoid responding, surly more intelligent peoples will comment. Why is it you teenagers always need to flame these forums?

In no way did I blow it out of proportion or flame you. You are the one that decided to attack me personally, I in no way did that. I disagree with your idea, nothing against you at all.

Now unless I read that incorrectly you are advocating increased legislation upon the reptile industry through artificial price controls.

I believe your intentions are good, most value-based laws are. But I do not agree with your solution to the problem you identified. You are attempting to force your values upon me and others with market manipulation through legislation.

I disagree, that is all. Good luck,

Tom

How did you get the idea I wanted new legislations?
I want to force dealers to be more responsible about these animals.
Of course theirs many ways to do this, I could call my ex boss at the SPCA and work on a new affiliation, but seizing abused reptiles at dealers is not a job I am willing to undertake at my age.
I could use less energy and work out new regulations with my government, at least start little and attend city consuls meeting, this would make a change.
But no I am not interested, of course I could make a real change for having been part of this industry for decades.
Captive monitors have no other purpose but our enjoyment, I have enjoyed them for decades and still do, is my right to own them worth 400,000 death every year?
I think peoples should start taking better care of there monitors, its guys like me who will put an end to this nonsense sooner or later.
Sure you have every rights to see me as a menace to your hubby, but first try to see me as your monitors friend, the ball is in keepers hands, its there responsibility.

"I think peoples should start taking better care of there monitors, its guys like me who will put an end to this nonsense sooner or later."

I agree with the first part of your statement, but how do you intend to put an end to this nonsense? Seems like a pretty tall order for one guy.

Putting and end to this is a high price to pay, this is why I am not interested in even trying.
Like you I am not willing to give my right to keep them.

However do not underestimate the power of one individual, anything is possible if you set your mind to it.

you know there is a way to do this using the market to our advantage.

Start a Quality Pet Certification company. All you do is inspect exporters, importers and dealers from the country of origin right to the local pet store. In order to get your stamp of approval they must pay pass your inspection (and pay for it). This certification allows them to advertise this fact. Advertise what this cert means and hope that buyers only purchase from those displaying an up to date cert (annual?). It would work for online sales too...I hate buying from someone when I cant see the living conditions of their animals. If you dont have an up to date 'Jobi Quality Certification' I'm not doing business with you. Expand it to all different animals, not just reptiles.

it would work. with enough initial investment it would work.

Tom

400,000 monitors imported yearly that die? No way bro....more like 30-40,000 total.....come to the U.S...out of those, alot are killed becuase of bad husbandry 99% of the time.......now 400,000 skins for the leather trade.....triple it........and that is the leather trade.....on waters alone.....

Its a figure of speech not a factual number, but if you need to know more die before shipping at the exporters then what’s actually shipped out.

This is how its been for all CITES animals for decades, worst is many none CITES suffer the same fate because dealers have to wait for documents before sending the shipments.

I have about 2000 pages of documents on varanids skin trade alone, I know just about everything about it, from the trappers to the moment your watch bracelet arrive at your jewellery, this from every country monitors are exploited, unless you plan to farm them and market there skins? We have no reasons to get into such discussions.

I have to agree with tpalopoli. I like companies like Pro Exotics that take great care of their animals, but that doesn't give them a free pass. If you're part of the trade, you don’t have the right to draw a line in the sand.

Heck, if the animal isn’t endangered and it’s numbers can sustain legal collection I don’t see what the problem is. If you want to try and make the trade in WC animals better go for it, but don’t try and legislate it out of existence.

First don’t get me wrong, its not about having control, its about not abusing a situation.
You see its not a question of these monitors being high in numbers, the abuse starts with the poor peoples collecting them, they have no education and live in the poorest parts of the world, we as importers offer little per animal, of course we know each $4 lizards will generate more income then if we after them a decent price for the same animal.

Once this $4 lizard arrives at the shop, we offer it at $12 and hope to make even more profit with all the accessories we sale with it.

I am not saying stop selling them or the accessories, no all I am asking is to start offering a reasonable amount of money at the beginning of the chain, ask more for them at the shop, its common knowledge keepers take better care when they pay a higher price.
Its not about making more money, its about saving a few animals.

Hello All,
I am all for the day that we go to Wayne's expo and instead of being flooded by ball python morphs, there are actually some tables offering true USA captive bred monitors- Asian & Australian... Hat's off to Frank Retes for being a front runner- lead the way I'm listening to your advice...- Best to you all- Mike & Mary

If they don't sell the animals in the US then they will just turn around and sell them somewhere else. It seems like some people complain about the number being imported and reason improper care and irresponsible keepers is a reason that importation should stop. Sure it would stop in the US but would that mean that the amount harvested from the wild would decrease....not really. They would just continue to harvest and increase output into the meat/hide market to make up for lost funds. You have to understand that people MAKE THEIR LIVING off these animals...one way or the other.

Government restrictions do nothing but hinder the hobby. If you think otherwise, you need to get a grip on reality and understand how this government funtions. By asking the government to step in, you would be taking control of this hobby away from the keepers....and once the government has that control, the community will never get it back.

The key to improving the lives of these animals relys on the keepers and the reptile community. If you don't like imports, REFUSE to buy from ANYONE that sells imported animals or DON'T deal with anyone (forums, classifieds, websites, resellers, importers) that promote the sale of imports. If you don't like the way people are treating their animals, then educate them on the way the animals should be treated. That is pretty simple isn't it....

that probably would not take much....but I guess is too hard for you...it is so much easier to ask the goverment to get involved, isn't it?

This post is all about education, you see though some of us have been educating peoples for decades, still little progress is being made.

Of course stopping import is in no way a solution, and you are right it will not save the monitors, but if your willing to share your apple pie and make it more profitable for these peoples to collect pet trade animals, then perhaps this will slow the skin trade?
In any case keepers will take better care of an animal they dearly have paid for.

As for education most peoples have there facts upside down!
Once a guy asked me help in designing a basin he could take on tour to display his crocodilians, he needed to get in the water with them, how is this about education? Its more about getting attention!

If I anyone was really about education, the programme would start with the 100,000s dieing imports, not with look at me I can manage a 200lbs reptile. To educate others about husbandry you need to show what bad husbandry leads too first.

Just because people spending more money for an animal does not mean that they would take better care of it. I have seen abused horse, pure breed dogs, ball python morphs, People doing stupid things with expensive cars, living in filthy homes...no matter how much money is involved there will always be people who just do not care. In the end the price tag does not mean a damn thing....it is all about the quality of person that owns or sells the item.

If education and 'boycotting' has not worked in the past...maybe the people trying did not try hard enough. I don't know...

Personally, I see asking the government to take care of a problem shows weakness......but then again maybe this community is so weak that it can't deal with it's issues by itself.

Maybe not? But voicing your opinion on this matter may be more valuable then you think. It all starts with an opinion.
Thanks!

Most purchases of savannah or nile monitors are impulse buys. Person walks into pet store, see's cool $20 lizard and walks out with it. If that same lizard had a $200 price tag, the impulse buys would become less frequent.

While you're correct that there are people who will abuse anything, the majority of the population take better care of things that they perceive as more valuable/costly.

12 bucks??? Maybe at the flea market but no self respecting store would sell so cheap.....I havent seen a savannah in Miami stores for less than 50 bucks....niles are 75 and waters 150 and up......

Unfortunately read the classifieds and you will see too many under priced monitors, good that you don’t sale them cheep.
But I have to ask?
How long have you been dealing these creatures?
How long have you witnessed 99% keepers killing them?
What have you don about it?

Most people end up letting them go becuase they get too big, should tell you something is being done right.....big could be 2 foot or 6...raised from hatchlings...so the set ups we sell are adequate to say the least.

Sorry but I am not usually one to argue about details, but you clearly said that most die because of bad husbandry, now your saying these monitors reach adult size?
I agree with your first statement, your second is more of a fairy tail unrelated to reality. Yes many do grow up to become adults, but very few compared to the imported numbers.

No you misunderstood.....we own a reptile store here in Miami and I very oftenly see people bring back monitors because kids off to college, no room, eats too much, etc, etc.....customers on a daily basis bring in savs, waters, mangroves and peachies to "show" them off......we do not sell "hundreds" but probably close to a hundred a year of various monitors and people bring them back regularly at much larger sizes and we have 7 people that come in to trade back down every 6 months or so for babies again. We do not sell niles nor do we sell any dwarf monitors.
We provide the whole set up at a discount if they purchase an animal. We havent lost a monitor in our store in a long time(a pilbara that was in bad condition when sent), and no customers have come back with sick or dying animals either. There are only three stores in Miami that specialize in reptiles only and I cant vouch for the others, but ours we push correct set ups for all the animals......

also two wholesalers in miami make food mix for baby monitors that includes a de=parasitic medication and dosage. the larger monitors get it direct via syringe orally. EVERY MONITOR....the problem is in pet stores not educating their customer.....in our store routinely, an animal can cost 100.00 but the setup with the basics comes out to 200

also the numbers quoted on cities websites, export quotas, etc is in no relation related to how many animals are actually EXPORTED........they have a MAXIMUM number they can send, few countries reach it, very few.....if i remember correctly, in 97 or 98, a country had export quotas of 20,000 savs or niles? Only 8 individual animals were exported, and another year, out of 18,000( the quota), only 3,000 were physically exported.

One dealers is actually trying to change this nonsense, of course he cant make 100% turn on the first try, but if you peoples encourage him others will follow, this could mean less impulse buyers.
$45ea is a start, of course 20heads for $200 is for wholesales as most privates have no need for so many monitors.
If your in the market for a budget monitor (gee this sounds wrong) the very least you could do is try and contribute a little, you could buy your monitor for a little more money, this will make a change, not only this but a dealer asking 3 times the price is not off to make a quick buck$, no in fact he probably will sell less monitors, but he is showing a conscience and doing the right thing. Personally I would rather build a strong relationship with such a conscious dealer, then sell myself to the cheapest dealer and be just an other number at the casher.
You be the judge, can you live with a few dollars less in your pockets?
Hears the deal, I will bend over backwards to help anyone with any question if you paid a reasonable amount of money for your savannah or nil, will try my best so you don’t become part of the statistics, promise!

I agree with your concern for wild monitors and farmed monitors awaiting shipment. I'm not sure what the answer is.

An analogy to me is, Imagine if instead of domestic dogs and cats we were taking wolves and panthers from the wild for everyday pets. This would never happen.

Why is it different with Monitors? I believe the wild population has to suffer from collection for the pet trade. Monitors, snakes or tropical fish, I believe this is detrimental to their longterm survival.

Should their be laws that if its not captive bred you can't own it? We do that in the U.S. with most of our wild life.

I'm concerned with any suggestion that wild caught animals should be more profitable than they currently are. People may stop farming and start collecting Monitors if they could triple their income.

Maybe only certain proven breeders should be able to posses wild caught animals for the purpose of developing CB animals for the pet trade. The rest of us could wait for these CB animals.

And these breeders or farmers could have standards for keeping the animals that would reduce suffering and death.

We shut down puppy mills in the U.S, for not meeting standards. Why not monitors?

We did take wild wolves from the wild. They are now domestic dogs. I am not saying that monitor's will eventually evolve into domestic varanids just making sure that is clear to you.

Oh and farming is generally much more detrimental than wild caught for the native animal. I will leave it to you to figure out why.

I will just reiterate...I would be very very careful siding with the animal rights wackos and persue or support legislation in this regard. It wont go well, I guarantee it. It wont go well for our hobby, for many people's livelihood in the US and more importantly for people in the reptile's countries of origin. Oh and it wont go well for the reptiles either. Take away their value and they will go away...fast. It is their value to humans as pets and the goods they can make and the food they provide that ensures their survival.

I wont even go into how critical these monitors are for the ecomony of many of the places they come from (mostly leather and meat, but the pet trade too). How fortunate for them we have silly hobbies and so spoiled we spend our money on it. They are worrying about eating.

It is a shame many monitors die terribly. That sucks. I am all for supporting those places that do their best to ensure proper care throughout the process (i.e. pro-exotics). But keep the gov't out of this.

CITES is a relatively new process. Has it helped any wildlife? Does the classification system really make sense? No and No. Just like welfare has increased the poor population, it WONT WORK. Just like domestic farm subsidies have increased starvation around the world, it WONT WORK.

By the way, if you think that 90% of domestic dogs are not bred from and into misery you are very mistaken. Maybe outlaw domestic dogs too. See where this will lead?

Tom

everyone needs education when purchasing an animal...we here all enjoy and keep/breed many reptiles. Now, the import trade is infrational compared to our own trade right here in the U.S.
Fix the dog and cat problem first...then go on to smaller things.....now number wise hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats are neglected, killed, abandoned, tortured, beaten, thrown out, drowned, etc, etc...those numbers are rock solid, there are hundreds of thousands of these dogs and cats.....