Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently set up a trade with someone. We decided to ship at the same time. Everything was going fine, I sent mine to arrive next day by 10:30. I recieved the tracking number for the snake I was recieving and decided to check. To my suprize I saw the snake was being shipped third day! I could not believe this. Im very concerned. I emailed the guy and asked if this is normally how he shipped and if the snake had heat. He replied saying he always ships 3 days and that everything would be fine because snakes can go for two weeks without food or water. He never answered the heat question. I am very concerned. Am I overreacting?
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Burm baby burm...

You are not overreacting in the least bit, IMO.
I have never even heard of someone using 3rd day delivery. Now I have heard it all.
The fact that someone would even think it would be ok to ship 3rd day is beyond me.

I hope your shipment arrives safe!
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Genesis 1:1

I really dont know what to do but wait. The thing that really got to me was he said, "I ship all of my animals priority mail. This is about my 10th time and i have
never had a death. A snake can live more than 2 weeks without food and water. I
assure you she will be fine its a very healthy snake. I didnt know you shipped
next day. Everyone on the site shipped priority too. If there is a problem send
me a pic of you holding her by her tail and i can replace her. Like I said if there is a problem I will gladly ship you another pueblan milksnake that looks exactly the same."
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Burm baby burm...

If he means usps priority mail he is a complete neckhead and you should be furious. Really angry for 3 day shipping and regular mail to boot? Ridiculous!
I think by now it should be industry standard that one can expect to pay on average 50 bucks for a reptile to be shipped. I have never felt like I got ripped due to a steep shipping cost. This industry is lucky to be able to do this legally, we should be grateful and consider it a given. I hope your snake arrives OK.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Its not USPS, just UPS. But still, if this is how he always ships what if he decides to sell the snake I traded to him? I feel like it is my fault. I know there is nothing I can do, but I still feel responsible.
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Burm baby burm...

Back in the day we used to ship like this all the time. We didn't have a chioce. Just ask any of the oldtimers. The only danger is the heat we are having across the country right now. HEAT KILLS! Cold is fine to ship. IMO its to hot to ship snakes with 3 day shipping.

Chances are if the guy only shipped 10 snakes in his lifetime the snakes are improperly packed as well. I hate it when people ship snakes withought packing them tight... The snake gets bounced around like a pin ball. What are people thinking ??...that the snake need to have a living space while shipping????
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I still don't need no spell chack.

With 3 day shipping, they may need to exercise.
Link

I would be beyond angry... that's not right.

//Todd

I would be angry as well! What it comes down your shipper is willing to gamble the life of the animal to save a few bux on shipping. Which is irresponsible and in my opinion cheesy!

This is why when I buy something I always ask...

What shipper do you use?
Are you shipping priority overnight?
Are you using a styro lined box?
Are you using a heat/cold pack?

At this point in time it's industry standard to ship live animals using priority overnight service, but because of stories like this you still have to ask questions to protect yourself and the animals.

Good luck and let us know when you get the box?

~ Mike Russo

I would be pretty pissed about it, but in all fairness, you should have asked about his shipping procedures.

In terms of your snake non of this is ideal, but I think it will be OK.

I remember reading something that back in the day (60's) a venom lab in florida was studying venom of south american coral snakes. They contacted a guy down there who could get the snakes and they asked him to ship them some snakes. They told him to put the snakes in a cloth bag in a styrofoam box. However apparently there was a misunderstanding. When they received the snakes, the person had cut a grove in a piece of styro and laid the snake out flat in it and covered it up tight. He then put the styrofoam with the snake in a cloth bag and sent it off on a cargo ship. Transit time was nearly a month!!! But most of the snakes still arrived OK.

you may be angry but u should be worrying how angry the snake is gonna be. its gonna be nervous and shaky and striking at you because of all the bouncing around it did for 3 days.

Well it I get bit serves me right for not asking how he ships.
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Burm baby burm...

Posted by: Nova89 at Tue May 1 07:32:31 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

you may be angry but u should be worrying how angry the snake is gonna be. its gonna be nervous and shaky and striking at you because of all the bouncing around it did for 3 days.

Thats what I was trying to say in my previous post. If there is ever a question I ask shippers is HOW DO YOU PACK? A snake that is packed tight will experience almost zero stress. Say for instance most breeders ship a neonate in a deli cup with just a paper towel in there or 1/2 filled with aspen. That little snake will bounce all around the deli cup and vibrate like hell. The size of the outside box does not matter that much. Just that the deli cup is filled to the rim with shaving and the snake does not have any room. Getting air from the deli cup holes is not a problem. Snakes are used to cramming themselves into tight places and prefer this to eleviate any stress.

I have gotten many a non-feeder to eat by putting a box full of cardboard in the cage just so the snake can crawl in there and cram intself into a tight spot. This is natural for snakes and stumulates feeding especially for such hard to feed snakes like lyre snakes, mountain kings and greybands..

The other thing is after you have the snake in a deli cup filled to the rim the deli cup should not be able to move around inside the box. The size of the box is something to consider to. If the box is large then it will go on a converyer belt and placed on a pallet. There is a much higher incidence of accidents with boxes getting caught on the conveyer belt or crushed on a pallet. Sometimes the forklifts poke into the sides of boxes or even run over them. I prefer to place the deli cup intio a smaller box because they are handled differently. Also the snake in the deli cup does not know how big a box it is in and will not effect it any differently outside of the deli cup. Smaller boxes get placed in with smaller mail and then into a bag. Anyway someting to think about but I am sure this is foreign to most of you.

Most breeders DO NOT ship the proper way. Even the known "experienced" breeders I have had ship to me do not. It always ticks me off to receive a snake packed loose in a deli cup or box. I can only imagine the undue stress the snake went through. Totally unessesary. A few people like Don Soderberg (South Mountain reptiles) and the late Lloyd Lemke shipped to me in the proper manner. But few do know how to pack. A snake that has room to strike inside the deli cup will experience a lot of vibration. I really can't stress proper packing enough (ie tight filled to the rim deli cups) and it really makes the difference on the snake. The shipping time is not that much of an issue when the snakes are packed tight and the temps are cool.
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I still don't need no spell chack.

I definitely hear you about how snakes should be packed in the deli cups. I have always done that.

However I have always made the effort to go with a bigger box then necessary (well padded and filled of course) because I thought that it would entail less bumping around rather then more. I can just see those little boxes getting flipped and tossed all over the place. Whereas I felt a larger box would be more sturdy and wouldn't be handled as violently.

Maybe I'm wrong, do you know for a fact that the different boxes are handled differently?

...probably depends on the shipper as well.

don't be fooled by what you see when the box gets dropped off at UPS, Fed Ex of DHL.

Yes the larger boxes have a much better chance of getting damaged because of the reasons I described. I got that information from about 10 different sources over the years.

A smaller box is placed into a duffle type bag whereas the larger boxes go through hell. They are the ones who go through conveyer belts and get stacked on pallet jack. Those are left in very large open wherehouses more exposed to the inclement weather as well.

whenever i ship larger shipments or adults (which is not very often) is when i worry. These are also the shipments that have gotten lost or damaged. I only had one small box damaged in thousands of shipments and that was 5 years ago. I have had many large boxes damaged or the snake killed to to mishandling.

Ship in as small a box as possible. If the weather is hot or below freezing then you have no choice but to ship in a styrofoam lined box.

here is a tip to insure that you box gets placed in a bag:

I used to make my own styrofoam boxes that fit two deli cups and can fit into a jumbo size envelope. The box has to be narrow to fit.. This insures that the box is placed along with other documents in a bag. It all looks very clean and neat after it is in the envelope.

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I still don't need no spell chack.

I actually load trucks as UPS and I can tell you how most boxes are handled. Bigger boxes are handled about the same level as "smalls", small boxes. Not all small packages make it to "the smalls bag". Quite a few will get lost as ALL packages go on conveyor belts (except stuff 70-150 lbs at UPS). Boxes do tend to be thrown, tossed, or dropped at some point in shipment or packing snakes tight is a good thing. Now with bags, that all tend to get thrown around as they are lighter than most packages.
The real heavy stuff's not thrown and is actually handled with alot more care than light boxes as no one wants to get hurt.

We actually had someone a few years back that shipped a large python (over 100 lbs), didn't package it right and the box came out with the snake falling out.I didn't work there at the time, but that's what I've heard.
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1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Rex- "normal" orange fire)
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Glutany- German Giant Mix)
0.1.0 Okeetee Corn (Okatee)
1.1.0 Spotted Python (Hotdog and Shoelace)

Agree small boxes are thrown..........C

You are actually working at one point of the trip a box makes. Eventually all boxes have to be loaded onto a truck.

Not to say what you experience is not true I have heard from others who work at shippers just like you do and they have a different position. One person was a close friend and the others were acqaintances. There were some posts on this subject by people who work at a shipping company like you do. They tell a different story. I was trying to locate them to post.

I have been shipping reptiles for many years. Some years I have shipped as many as 150 boxes in a season. My experience has taught me that larger boxes are at more risk due to the
damage and condition of boxes arriving compared to alost zero on small boxes. I have been told by employees that smaller boxes get put into bags, are hand sorted and have less chance of being thrown, dropped, stacked or have forklift damage. Here in Atlanta boxes go directly to the airport and sit in large open air hangers for hours before being placed on a jet.

I was also trying to do a search for posts by others who work at shipping companies but have not found them yet. I did find this post but it is not from an employee at UPS, Fedex or DHL. I will get those later. Here is a post from a guy who works at a computer company.

"I work for a computer parts company that ships hundreds of PC's, monitors, printers, and service parts every day. About 35000 per month actually. About 2% of those large packages arrive broken even though they are packeged in superior, top notch foam packing, in double ply boxes. The reason why is that these packages are not handled much by humans (because the dimensions of the box mark them as heavy, even if the box is not. this is called DIM Weight)...they are moved along conveyors at transit hubs etc and often can fall off. They are also palletized, and can be moved(and punctured) by forklifts etc. Also, they can happen to be the bottom box in a tall stack of heavy boxes, and get crushed his way. With sensitive parts...we often opt to use a smaller, clamshell type boxs, with some foam inserts, as the boxes are genrally handled better. With small boxes...such as the type you would use for a book, they are handled almost exclusively by hand, and almost never experiance "tramatic" damage. Its a fact, I have been doing this a very long time."
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I still don't need no spell chack.

I used to do some service work at every UPS facility in south Florida from Stuart down to Key West, visit each one once each month. Early in the morning it was a madhouse, with conveyors going and boxes getting thrown (fire brigade style) from the sorter to the guy packing each truck, and automated sorting on those conveyors. (Hialeah is an awesome giant facility) After about 10:00 am the facility basically shuts down, all the trucks are gone and anything still there just sits until later that night. I have seen boxes of parrots sitting on a non moving conveyor down in the open air (huge garage doors on each side open) just as bluerosy describes at the facility in Naranja (Homestead) and thinking if only the customer knew, it would make them freak out. It seems to me all the packages are shipped exactly the same way, but priority gets moved to the front of the conveyor. The actual flights and delivery really just take a few hours, the rest of the time the package is just sitting on a conveyor somewhere not even moving. Three days for any animal is not good.

How long ago was this?
What time of the year was it?
From November to January you do NOT want to send any animal though UPS as that's when it's the worst time to ship cause of all the holiday stuff is being shipped and it really is a mad house. In December before Christmas we do have stuff sit the belt over night on weekends as we can't make people work on days they'd normally have off.
I didn't think UPS ships live mammals or birds. All packages are suppose to removed off all belts at the end of the shift, it's easier for the next shift and cheaper for UPS that way. Now when it has been getting real bad for a shift then the next shift covers it, but they come anywhere from 30 mins to 1 1/2 hours later depeneding on when the last shift was.
In the summer cold packs are a must as all trucks will me sitting in the sun, no AC in the trailer for any carrier.

I load the trucks here in Jackcsonville, my area does trucks to Ft.Lauderdale, Stuart, and Ft.Perice (and surrounding cities) FL

Anyways, how's the man (or woman, I dunno) who posted this about his snake shipment doing? Was he able to upgrade or what??

And should we move this post of reptile shipments somewhere else?
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1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Rex- "normal" orange fire)
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Glutany- German Giant Mix)
0.1.0 Okeetee Corn (Okatee)
1.1.0 Spotted Python (Hotdog and Shoelace)

This was actually back in 91 right before hurricane Andrew, but I visited every facility- Key West, Islamorada, Homestead, Hialeah, Hollywood, Ft. Lauderdale, Deerfield, West Palm, Boynton, Riviera, Jupiter, Ft. Pierce, Stewart, Port Charlotte, Ft. Meyers, Naples Miami Airport, every “hub” down here- I think there were eighteen of them all together. I use to swing into Glades Herp on my west coast trip every month. I had to walk throughout each facility. Some were really small like Key West and took five minutes (five hour drive for that, too!) I would start very early before dawn and some of those places were crazy busy and I had to be careful in there and stay out of their way. After about ten, though, some of them were like a ghost town. Some of the open air type places I’d say were probably a lot cooler than some of the warehouse barn types with no A.C. I will yield to you since you work for them every day, but I’ll never forget the boxes marked “live parrots” sitting on the conveyor, not moving, down in the open air type facility and thinking there must be a better way to care for boxes with animals in them.
I hope along with everybody else that he gets his package and it turns out alright, but even a “cheap” snake deserves the best fastest shipping even if it costs more than the snake.

So far it is on time for delivery tomorrow.
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Burm baby burm...

what are the high and low temps in your area and the senders area the last couple days?
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I still don't need no spell chack.

I dont know all the areas snake snake is going through (its going from PA to WA but it is cool here.
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Burm baby burm...

I'm pleased to say that we've actually gotten better since then. Probably had a lot of law suits and stuff which is why they make sure the belts are cleared out and everything's shipped. And the Hub that I work at is the largest in the USA and we don't use forklifts for anything. So that's also something to think about when shipping large heavy stuff through us. All the real heavy stuff (70 lb) comes on "trains" like what they use in airports to carry luggage to airplanes.
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1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Rex- "normal" orange fire)
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Glutany- German Giant Mix)
0.1.0 Okeetee Corn (Okatee)
1.1.0 Spotted Python (Hotdog and Shoelace)

I use to load trucks for UPS at the Richmond, CA hub.
Big boxes are better. They are used in the design of a wall. Small boxes are thrown behind the wall.

If the loader is good, he'll build a good wall without throwing little boxes behind it - but the good loaders that pay attention to detail often get moved to the sort isle.

Unloading is another consideration. I worked unload for awhile too. Sometimes the walls just get torn down and boxes wall onto the unload belt. Small boxes are going to be higher in a wall than large boxes, which are used for the foundation of a wall.
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3.6 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis fitchi (Valley Garter)
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

I work at UPS so they randomly tell us of new shipment details and whatever.
I'm pretty sure you can actually upgrade your shipment, or have it sent a little fast, 2-day select or something. Just call 'em with the tracking number and see about upgrading.
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1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Rex- "normal" orange fire)
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Glutany- German Giant Mix)
0.1.0 Okeetee Corn (Okatee)
1.1.0 Spotted Python (Hotdog and Shoelace)

Thats good to know. Ill try that today.
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Burm baby burm...

Posted by: black_wolf at Tue May 1 08:24:45 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I work at UPS so they randomly tell us of new shipment details and whatever.
I'm pretty sure you can actually upgrade your shipment, or have it sent a little fast, 2-day select or something. Just call 'em with the tracking number and see about upgrading.

Thats great advice.

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I still don't need no spell chack.

Make the shipper reimburse you the additional cost if it works.
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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana

Make the shipper reimburse you the additional cost if it works.

I don't think this would be fair to the shipper. If the snake was to arrive healthy and strong then the shipper has concluded his part in the transaction. The shipper should AT LEAST gurantee LIVE ARRIVAL. So it is the repsonsibilty of the shipper to get the snake to someone in one peice. if not then he has to pay or replace the animal. By changing changing the status of the shipment (en route)is purely up to the buyer/receiver to "feel better" about the snake. Since this detail was not worked out beforehand you cannot hold the shipper resonsible. If that was the case i would demand a refund on every snake that was sent to me in a delip cup with loose packing with little or nothing inside the deli cup. The snakes will go through a lot of stress if not packed tight that sitting in a box that is. I would rather receive a snake that is packed properly that getting one shipped in 12-18 hours that is not. I feel that people who do not know how to pack a snake should be horsewipped. Even after i expalin to shippers how to place the snake into a filled deli cup I still recieve them filled 1/2 way to 3/4 full. I think people just don't understand the ecology of a snake and are afraid to pack properly. Mahy a time I felt like i should get my money back on a snake that was stressed out like this. But the bottom line is the snake arrived alive there is nothing you can do.
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I still don't need no spell chack.

good points all. I was just thinking about the trade aspect, snake shipping for snake shipping, and one party paid less for shipping and so got more for the snake. But I've never shipped or received a snake so my two cents are probably accurately valued...
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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana

I already asked that. But he said because his snake is worth more than mine, it would be more fair for me to pay the difference.
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Burm baby burm...

The only good thing I can say is that he shipped UPS. Usually he ships USPS.
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Burm baby burm...

The whole thing really sucks.

I hope the snake arrives a-okay!

You could also track the shipment very closely, and drive down to the USPS depot before it gets onto a truck in your city.

I did that with a leucistic pine shipped that got delayed because of weather, and was going to sit in the freakish cold weather we were having outside in a storage bin.

I talked the lady that worked there to see if she could find the package in their holding compartment outside for me, because it was a ilve baby snake, but she made no promises.

She ended up calling me back 20 minutes later at 10:30pm that night, and I hauled a$$ down to the airport to pick him up... otherwise, I would've had to wait until the next day/truck delivery... she was WAY cool about it!

//Todd

that it only takes 5-10 minutes to kill a snake in direct sunlight,so morning delivery makes the most sense,and of coarse packing,but i have received snakes in Miami that were shipped second day and all arrived fine,though thats when i lived in a "neighborhood"now i live rural and in August a shipper send some turtles priority next day, worrying until 6 pm the following day the truck found my house and still charged priority, and turtles were HOT half cooked but survived long enough not to make a claim ,but to-date 50% have perished and those were poor feeders also .Chris

Im really starting to freak out. Now the delivery date has been moved back and Im not home the day it is supposed to arrive.
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Burm baby burm...

make sure if they leave the package, you leave SHADE and instructions,the snake will be fine in the box its direct sunlight that kills

I actually have a snake loving friend that will pick it up. She has the tracking number and only lives about 2 mins away.
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Burm baby burm...

Well, she was able to get here today. She looks ok besides being completely stressed out. Right now she is soaking in her water dish, dont blame her.
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Burm baby burm...

Giving them a drink right away is a good thing.

Congrats. Now lets see some pics!
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I still don't need no spell chack.

You’re not out of the woods yet. The exposure to excess heat and stress during shipping could kill your little snake a week from now, long after the shipper will be willing to blame it on the method of shipping. I would leave it alone for a few days and not offer food for a few either. A good soak is probably the best thing for it right now. Dehyrdration is especially critical for a small snake. If you think about all the snakes that arrived in shipments of bananas and all that you have to appreciate how resilient they can be. I hope your little guy/gal is going to be fine, but there is still reason to be extra concerned for awhile.
Good luck, and I second- now we need to see her! Post a pic!

I want snakes in my bananas!

Dad told me they use to occasionally find tarantulas in bananas when he was a kid.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 5 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

I am going to have to disagree about feeding her with Discern. But thats what these forums are for is to get differring opinions from experienced breeders.

IMO you should feed the snake right away. It has gone through some stress. Shipping tends to dry out snakes and the first thing is giving the snake water. Then offer food the same day it arrives. I have always done this and told others the same thing and the snakes seem to adjust much quicker this way.. If there is a problem then the snake will not eat. If the snake did not experience that much stress then it will eat. Either way you should give the snake a choice.

I have heard the same thing for years on not feeding snakes after shipping but I beleive it to be an old wifes tale much like some of the other things we as breeders have passed down for no good reason like not feeding snakes during winter and cooling them or breeding snakes that we think are to small. All these things are contradictory to the snakes health. SOmetimes overzelous snake keepers in their desire to make sure theri snakes are in the best care can do the most harm by following these old and outdated principles.

I used to work exclusivly with rosy boas for a number of years and they are notorious for regurges with any slight disturbance. Even giving them water makes them regurge or handling of any type will. Kingsnakes they are not nearly as sensitive and since I have had to work it boths ways with being extra careful I would advise feeding as soon as possible for the snake to adjust. Since you are going to move the snake anyway it might as well be digesting xsomething to make it stronger and get it back in a pattern. Keeping food away from the snake will just add to any stress and can make your snake weaker and thus opening it up to other problems which you will you might have to face later on.. Its these types of theories that have gone around for years that are not proven and have actually made it a lot harder to raise healthy captives.
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I still don't need no spell chack.

I can't speak to the wisdom of feeding when it is this stressed as I don't know, but all the people that say "don't feed when new snake arrives" - I've never had a problem doing it. Not that I've ordered a large quantity, but the ones I have ate right away and seemed just fine.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 5 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

At the risk of sounding like I’m talking out of both sides of my mouth, I sorta agree too. I can totally agree about the repetition of old wives tales. I guess I was thinking in the case of a snake that has undergone a known stress or some dire exposure, which in this case we aren’t really sure it was undue stress at all. I have always heard that you should keep a snake in a snake bag in it’s new cage the first night and keep it dark and all that. It is often repeated. I am guilty of ignoring all that just because I never had the patience to do it. I always wanted to see it right away, and see how it likes the new cage and all that. So I am guilty of not doing what was always said you should do. And I usually feed them right away too! I have never had any problems with it either. I wasn’t trying to pass on the old crap advise, I really think that is probably the right thing to do with a snake that is dehydrated or something like that, not really important for a healthy normal snake.

Why on earth would you keep a snake in a bag for an extra night?

I am not going to agree or disagree necessarily, because I have done it both ways without a problem, but I'd like to point out the logic behind waiting.

A snake has intestinal microbes that are important for successful digestion. These microbes adjust somewhat slowly to the snakes patterns. When you have a snake in a constant environment its bacteria get used to it. Then lets say you go and ship the snake and it goes for 36 hours with no heat. Those bacteria, that have been living at 80 degrees, might do all sorts of things at 65 degrees. Or they might be just fine.

But for the same reason that you don't feed a snake the day you turn on the heat after winter, or the same reason you don't feed a hypothermic rescue animal right away, many people believe that its asking for trouble to take a snake who has been cold and stressed and then slam its digestive system with a big meal.

Like I said, I have fed snakes as soon as they arrive, especially if they look skinny, but I usually wait at least a day or two. Why not right?

last day of skiing today

I can see both skis are in front of it - but that's what it looks like at first glance
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 5 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Ill post pics as soon as possible, but that wont be until the 14th. Im out of the country right now (but I have a trusted, snake keeping friend that is herp sitting for me).
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Burm baby burm...