Reptile & Amphibian Forums

No i totally agree with what you said about the female..i took in consider with what you said but then looked around for like a month and emailed people like dachiu and dachiu said they breed the females at 350 grams and i personally went to ron trempers house in texas and he said he breeds females around 350 also then i see online 350 and 400 ..well enough of that.. yea i like the idea of purchasing some goliath and silk worms..O yea also the only reason i left them together ( which was 4 an hour ) was because my stepdad said let them be ..let them calm down..i didnt feel secure so i double checked on them ..saw him trying 2 mate again and immediatly took him out. Any other questions?
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Joey And His Bro. , Beardie Br0thaz

Understand one thing about females and size and weight. It really all depends on the genetics of your dragons and their size/age combination.

For example, some dragons will never get over 350g to 400g, so for them to breed at 350g is the best you'll ever do. Some stay smaller and that's just the way it is. Some dragons will be 350 at 4 years old and so on.

Others will top out at 500g, 600g, or more. Those dragons more then likely should not be bred at 300g to 350g because they are too young and are still growing and are not ready to take on the added load of having babies.

This is partially why everyone thinks breeding stunts dragons. It will slow them down because their bodies are using all their energy to grow and produce strong bones. Add in clutches of eggs and you are really taxing your dragon.

Just because a dragon is 350g doesn't mean squat. You really need to know a lot about the dragon and determine what's best for her. You better supplement her extremely well with tons of calcium and vitamins, otherwise you're really pushing a fine line. Good luck.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

i have a 3 year old female at 423 grams and 18 inches i would never breed her at this weight, just because she is over 350 doesnt mean she is optimum weight for her, thats right for that particular dragon, she is still underweight in my opinion and doesnt maintain her body weight well enough, like the dragon you describe, she is a picky girl, is not an overly aggressive eater for most part, therefore to me, is not a good candidate to be a breeder female. It may sound as tho she has good weight, but she is a very slight figured dragon. If she cannot maintain and keep a good body weight right now, breeding will be VERY hard on her, its hard enough on the healthiest most robust females to begin with. Just an example........

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reiko
photos

You blew off all the people who tried to help you here, and told you to fatten her up, and do more research. Instead you E-mailed 1 person out of the many here that said go ahead and breed that female at 330 grams. You finally found the one person who would say yes go ahead and breed them. See Beardie broz there is a huge difference between us helping here and the Dachiu's and what they are doing. See us here are hobbiest/small scale breeders meaning we do it for fun not for profit, or if profit it's going right back to the dragons anyway. We do it for the love of the animals and want no pain paid by our beloved pets. Dachiu's pay their mortgage, and send kids to college by selling beardies. Get the picture. Dachiu's have been doing this for over 10 years. how long have you? Think the Dachiu's are a little more experienced with breeding then you? Where are you going to go if you need help and your female is failing, are you going to go to the Dachiu's, or the people here you blew off for the last six months? They might get back to you in a month that's if they even remember telling you to go ahead and breed them in the first place. Even from your posts back six months ago I just got the feeling you were doing this cause you saw possible dollar signs. Always asking what will I get? how much can I charge? I just pray at the same time you were asking yourself, what am I going to do with 100 baby dragons? do I have the money for the supplies and food, and possible meds? Who will buy a red X normal with no color? See the dachiu's run a business I'm sure they do things there they would never tell any body. Do you really think they would share the times an under weight female died? Or how many babies had to be put down cause of nips? Yes, these are things that big businesses have to do at some point, but it is the last thing they would share in an e-mail to some kid who wants to breed his dragons. They get 100s of e-mails a day about people wanting to purchase dragons. How much time to you really think they spent with your question? This post is in no way trying to hurt the dachiu's if your offended change the words Dachiu to the smiths. Sorry
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Mystical Dragons

Mattman I hate to rip you but. Have you ever bred a dragon before? If my memory is not failing me you have not because you do not feel your dragons are old enough. So how dare you rip the dachius??? Like you said they have been breeding for 10 years now. And like you say they pay their bills via this business. To me that means that they of all people would be willing to wait until dragons are in proper health and size to breed. Alot of dragons will top at 350 grams or so. Dachiu's have said that dragons often go through growth spurts after they are breed. I have experienced that. Females bred at 400 grams shooting up to 500 grams afterwards. I am not saying that beardie brotha was right or wrong. Just that you have no right to rip into the dachius breeding practices, especially if I am correct in the fact that you have never bred a dragon. You do bring up some good points but to rip some of the most respected breeders in the us is just wrong. Don't get me wrong I do do this for the love of my dragons, don't want to compromise their health. Just don't like to see people rip people. No where has this guy posted a pic of his dragon. maybe the dragon was fat at 350 grams? Have you seen it and know it isn't fat? If not then maybe you shouldnt rip him. I have seen adult dragons that weigh 300 grams and are nice and fat. i see 300 gram dragons that look small. depends on the dragon. You may bring up some other good points. But i do not see a reason to be ripping this guy. And if the dachius have nipped dragons I am sure they can still sell them. Alot of dragons the dachius sell are morphs a morph with a nipped tail is still worth a pretty penny and i wouldn't think they euthanize them. Maybe I am wrong. But I am not here saying the dachius have breeders die because they carelessly breed early to pay their mortgage. Or that they run around and euthanizing nipped tail dragons. bad practice man.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Ok, time for my 2 cents...... LOL I was going to stay out of it but...

I myself have an adult female dragon that has only ever hit over 400 grams while actually gravid! She is well fed and looks it too..... She is just a small dragon. She is not "skinny" by any means, I just think this is her max weight.... Maybe in her 3rd or 4th year she will suprise me and have a growth spurt.... who knows LOL

>>Mattman I hate to rip you but. Have you ever bred a dragon before? If my memory is not failing me you have not because you do not feel your dragons are old enough. So how dare you rip the dachius??? Like you said they have been breeding for 10 years now. And like you say they pay their bills via this business. To me that means that they of all people would be willing to wait until dragons are in proper health and size to breed. Alot of dragons will top at 350 grams or so. Dachiu's have said that dragons often go through growth spurts after they are breed. I have experienced that. Females bred at 400 grams shooting up to 500 grams afterwards. I am not saying that beardie brotha was right or wrong. Just that you have no right to rip into the dachius breeding practices, especially if I am correct in the fact that you have never bred a dragon. You do bring up some good points but to rip some of the most respected breeders in the us is just wrong. Don't get me wrong I do do this for the love of my dragons, don't want to compromise their health. Just don't like to see people rip people. No where has this guy posted a pic of his dragon. maybe the dragon was fat at 350 grams? Have you seen it and know it isn't fat? If not then maybe you shouldnt rip him. I have seen adult dragons that weigh 300 grams and are nice and fat. i see 300 gram dragons that look small. depends on the dragon. You may bring up some other good points. But i do not see a reason to be ripping this guy. And if the dachius have nipped dragons I am sure they can still sell them. Alot of dragons the dachius sell are morphs a morph with a nipped tail is still worth a pretty penny and i wouldn't think they euthanize them. Maybe I am wrong. But I am not here saying the dachius have breeders die because they carelessly breed early to pay their mortgage. Or that they run around and euthanizing nipped tail dragons. bad practice man.
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>>Derek Affonce
>>DeKeAff Exotics
>>dekeaffexotics.com
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

Ok, I couldn't help myself either... Here is a pic of one of our girls. Look how fat she is!!! (more...)

... she was 350g in this picture... she laid 2 clutches for us this year. Weight is subjective. Weight is a great tool, but age/fat/condition/attitude is far more important when determining health and breedability.

There it was... my 2 cents.

Cya!
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Kelly Affonce
DeKeaff Exotics
www.dekeaffexotics.com
AIM: DekeaffGrrl

in defence of mattman, i think hes just upset because this kid has been on here several times asking about weight, age, breeding, etc and has no clue as to what he is doing and then after asking advice, to which many people on the board answered, including breeders, he went and did the opposite of all the advice he was given. too many people out there getting into breeding for a buck, i think a lot of breeders can tell you, it takes awhile to make money at this, like any small business you take a loss before you make any gain. Matt has a lot of concern for his dragons and i can understand why he was upset, i dont think he meant to really put down on anyone, certianly everyone can agree that that particular breeder (dachiu's)is a good one. Anyhow, not taking any sides really, i see everyones point here, and yes some dragons are ready at 350 grams, and some may not be ready at 400 every dragon is an individual.

>>Ok, I couldn't help myself either... Here is a pic of one of our girls. Look how fat she is!!! (more...)
>>
>>
>>
>>... she was 350g in this picture... she laid 2 clutches for us this year. Weight is subjective. Weight is a great tool, but age/fat/condition/attitude is far more important when determining health and breedability.
>>
>>There it was... my 2 cents.
>>
>>Cya!
>>-----
>>Kelly Affonce
>>DeKeaff Exotics
>>www.dekeaffexotics.com
>>AIM: DekeaffGrrl
>>
>>
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reiko
photos

I agree with mattman in my feeling towards this kid. I don't know that any of those things about dachiu are true, but I don't really think they have a place in this argument at all. I think Dachiu is a good solid producer of dragons. We all have a problem at some point. BUT!!! I too believe this kid is wrong. I have seen some of the things he(or someone with the same user name) posted in other places, and because of those posts I am not even sure his dragons are a year old yet. I know he thinks he is going to make money. If he wasn't looking for the dollar signs, why is he so crazy about breeding some ordinary dragons that he has been told time and time again not to breed. He has been told MANY times, and from many different people NOT to breed his dragons, as it could hurt them. If he cared for his dragons he COULD have waited a few months and made sure he (and the dragons) were ready.

There is NO way around the fact that this kid was extremely SELFISH to try and breed his dragons at this point. Because he couldn't wait until he had all of the correct information and get his dragons checked by a professional herp vet he has risked their health. Thats selfish. No way around it. And if this kid can't even afford a book on dragons how could he EVER afford to care for 100 baby dragons?? He must not have a book because he has been asking those basic breeding questions covered on any good care sheet or dragon book. Not those fine detail questions. Remember guys, this is the same kid who keeps posting a picture of a dragon in a dirty care full of dead mealworms(half burried in the sand, so that if eaten the dragon would also get a mouthful of sand) and instead of greens...there is a pile of something that looks suspiciously like peaches!

Since he cut so many corners and twisted the truth so much to get his female gravid, it scares me what he is going to do when the babies come. I can find really bad care sheets online saying things like baby dragons eat 5 crickets a day and salad(iceburg lettuce carrots tomato, ect. Supplementing is not necessary. UVB lighting is not necessary. Baby dragons can be kept together in large groups of 15-20.) All of these things can be found if you look hard enough, I have read them. He tried so hard to justify his last selfish act. When he finds out how much MONEY and TIME it takes to properly care for baby dragons he is going to have to find a way around it. He is going to go find that one pet store that says yeah...we put 100 crickets in in the morning and leave them, thats all you gotta do. And they only need a regular light bulb if they are close enough to the window to get sunlight...thats what the pet store in my neighborhood told me!!

Do not encourage this kid. He is selfish. If you somehow found yourself in a situation to breed a dragon you could not see in advance and were told by many other breeders was not up to it, would you do it? That is very similar to the situation he is in. He can see the dragon, but is in NO position to interpret what he sees. So many people in different places have told him better safe then sorry. He didn't bother with a vet...he just threw the dice.

And you know what. He will not have to suffer for this, just his poor little dragon(and possibly all of her babies).

Sorry this is so long and rough...I have gotten tired of reading things that other people forwarded to me from this kid. He is wrong. He is ignorant. He is ABOUT to cause pain.

Jen
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MY Dragons!!

Ok I was NOT defending Beardie Bortha. I do think he has posted over and over again. He obviously didn't really care what people said. That isn't cool. But again does anyone know that the female in question isn't a fat 350 gram female? I also wasn't ripping into him. I was ripping into mattman for ripping into the Dachius. His remarks are borderline slanderous. The whole 10 month, 1 year, 18 month breedable age thing has been debated. Peoples points of view vary. This kid will breed his dragon realize the pain in the ass that they are to raise and sell and he probably won't do it again. I just found no need to bring the dachius into this ane rip up there reputation when what he said i do not think he has any proof of.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Reiko I do agree with you that this guy could be very wrong. Haven't followed this guys posting. Maybe he is completely wrong. I don't know and it doesn't change my original post. Mattman, if he hasn't breed even if he has, has no right to rip the dachius. It is very irresponsible.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

i do agree there, smiths would have been a better name to use. As far as the kid, well... i dont think he has a clue

>>Reiko I do agree with you that this guy could be very wrong. Haven't followed this guys posting. Maybe he is completely wrong. I don't know and it doesn't change my original post. Mattman, if he hasn't breed even if he has, has no right to rip the dachius. It is very irresponsible.
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>>Derek Affonce
>>DeKeAff Exotics
>>dekeaffexotics.com
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reiko
photos

Atleast someone saw my post for what it actually was. The Dachiu's are top notch in my book, even though we don't agree on every aspect of breeding or care they certainly have done what they had to do to make it this far. I should have never kept the name Dachiu in there, big mistake. I did say to whoever this offended put smith in where dachiu is used,lol. Just trying to show some differences
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Mystical Dragons

(Mattman I hate to rip you but. Have you ever bred a dragon before?)

(A: No never a bearded dragon before. I'll also took the advice of many to wait until 16-18 months and over at bottom skin and bones breeding weight of 400 grams. All my 5 adults were 400 grams at 6 months. I would never think about breeding that young with so much growth left to do. Or if some were just hitting 400 at adult legths of 18-23 inches something in my OPINION is wrong, and I personally would not have breed that animal.

( If my memory is not failing me you have not because you do not feel your dragons are old enough. So how dare you rip the dachius??? Like you said they have been breeding for 10 years now. And like you say they pay their bills via this business. To me that means that they of all people would be willing to wait until dragons are in proper health and size to breed.)

A. Well, it's not failing there was just a few more reasons other then age. Like I said at the end if the name Dachiu's offends you change it to Smith's maybe failing a little. I'm sorry I left it as Dachiu's, but that's who he talked to, But this person got about 10 No's should not breed, then went to the Dachiu's Who I think of as PROFESSIONALS and got a yes. Not putting them down but I do not believe in my opinion a dragon 330 grams should have been bred. The Dachiu's are very busy to be answering some 12 year olds questions without seeing the dragon in person. Yes, the Dachiu's know what to do when a dragon is failing will this kid? Most likely he'll come back and ask the 10 people who told him he should have put on more weight. I AM IN NO WAY GOING TO PUT WHAT I THINK ABOUT THE DACHIU"S BREEDING PRACTICES ON THIS FORUM. I PERSONALLY LIKE THE OFFSPRING THEY PRODUCE AND HAVE A GEM FROM THEM.

( A lot of dragons will top at 350 grams or so. Dachiu's have said that dragons often go through growth spurts after they are breed. I have experienced that. Females bred at 400 grams shooting up to 500 grams afterwards.)

A. Did the Dachiu's tell you how old this breeder was that shot up to 500 grams before it was bred. So if it was 12 months I'm against that anyway and that's his decision to breed at 10-12 months, and the reason many don't. Like I said opinion.

(I am not saying that beardie brotha was right or wrong. Just that you have no right to rip into the dachius breeding practices, especially if I am correct in the fact that you have never bred a dragon. You do bring up some good points but to rip some of the most respected breeders in the us is just wrong. Don't get me wrong I do this for the love of my dragons, don't want to compromise their health. Just don't like to see people rip people. No where has this guy posted a pic of his dragon. maybe the dragon was fat at 350 grams? Have you seen it and know it isn't fat? If not then maybe you shouldn't rip him.)

A. Like I said before if the word Dachiu offended you change it to smith. I Have absolutely no problems with the dachiu's at all and this was not an attempt to rip on them at all. Just trying to show the difference in what beardie bro has a disadvantage then the Smiths. The smiths are large breeders who know what to do if something was to happen. Beardie brother would have to ask us, and we most likely would just tell him to get him to a vet. I do wish him luck with his breeding. I just got a little ticked cause he had people on the forum who have seen the dragon, gave him advise to do, them found out a day later the deed was done, HE MATED. By his account cause the Dachiu's said it would be ok.

Grimdog I'm sorry if you took offense to my original post, or if the Dachiu did even more for that matter, but I was trying to tell this kid there are huge differences in him breeding a dragon and what the dachiu's have been refining for 10 years. Basically coming down to experience that's it. Dachiu's would know if a 350 gram dragon is fit. Beardie bro would not. Why not weigh on the side of error and put more weight on. And to be honest with you if my meals were coming from dragon sales I just might breed younger or under weight, but that's just me, and I'm hungry all the time.
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Mystical Dragons

Hey Mattman, the dragons referenced breed at 400 shot up to 500 was one of my personal females. She looked really good when i bred her at 400 and was stable there. To me that is an average size for an dault female (300-800g range is what I think is normal). She since laying two clutches has shot up to 500 grams. Right now she just plain and simply looks fat. She has also been showing signs of going into brumation (her cage mate also). I do not know that whole history of beardie brotha, he may very well be wrong. I just didn't like to see you saying the dachius have dragons die all the time from breeding them underweight (I personally think they would wait because of the reasonable expectation the bigger the more eggs the more profit). Or put down nipped dragons. You did use their name which if read means that you had knowledge that they did it. Not all adult dragons top out over 400 grams. Some dragons weigh less some weigh alot more. It is natural variation in size just they way that this is case in humans. a 5'1" 110 lb female shouldn't be stopped from breeding because she isn't 6'0" 170 lbs. The 5'1" girl could very well pop out huge children. Trust me my mom is 5'1" and I am 6'3" and played college football, am a big boy. Also just because a girl is 5'1" doesn't mean she should have a baby.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Ohh no please Grimdog. I was workin with the name that was given. I have absolutly no knowledge of the Dachiu's doing any of this. Thats why I got a little pissed when people said I was attacking. I have know reason to attack or no knowledge to attack about. This just happened to be the breeder he contacted that said yes breed. Yes, this has been going on for a while with him, and it was like finally he has a big name he can use to say it's ok to breed it. He's lied numerours times about ages, sizes, you name it. And always seemed more interested in the money aspect of breeding them.
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Mystical Dragons

Please someone tell me. Did I say they did things that no other large breeders do? NO. Did I say they feed the nipped to the adults for added protein? NO. Did I say the females they breed under weight all died? NO. Did I say they stunt the breeders under 15 inches so three fit nicely in a 4x2x2? NO. What did I say that was so cruel or mean? I stated I'm sure they don't share the mishaps they've had along the line, just like we are not likely to share our stupid mistakes. What did I say that they did that was so horrible or attacking? I even said to change the breeders names. This in no way was supposed to be an attack on anybody. I was just plainly stating large breeders can get away with breeding earlier or a little under weight cause they have the experience to compensate for short comings.
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Mystical Dragons

Quoting you

"Do you really think they would share the times an under weight female died? Or how many babies had to be put down cause of nips?"

Do you have any proof that they have had multiple females die as a result of breeding early? I have seen them post about screw up such as breeding dargons at 4 months by mistake and having the female grow up and be strong breeders at 5 years old, and still going? Do you have any proof that they put down nipped tail babies? I do not think so.

Just bad practice to use names or infer names without them being present or without facts to back up your statements. You say you should have deleted the names, but you chose not to. I also do not feel that people that have never bred dragons should give advise on how to bred dragons, when it is safe to breed dragons, or just general things about breeding. Just my 2 cents but until you do it yourself don't tell others how to do it, just not right all your knowledge on the subject has come from books and from online articles and posts here. things aren't as black and white as some people here like to think.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

"Do you really think they would share the times an under weight female died? Or how many babies had to be put down cause of nips?"

A. That statment you took wrong, and it was out of context. If this above statement bothered you. Oh well. It's the truth. When you can find me an honest business who never had problems, and airs out all their dirty laundry I'll give you a million bucks.

Do you have any proof that they have had multiple females die as a result of breeding early? I have seen them post about screw up such as breeding dragons at 4 months by mistake and having the female grow up and be strong breeders at 5 years old, and still going? Do you have any proof that they put down nipped tail babies? I do not think so.

A. No proof about any of their females dying from being bred to early. I've heard from Rob himself one female had died cause she over produced. No proof they put down nipped dragons either, but out of over 1000 dragons none in the bins had nips. Either they keep them some where else or they know a trick we all don't know to stop the nips. Some breeders put 3 to a bin and still get nips even with feeding 3 times a day and still get nips. I have no proof they kill off nips, just never saw them sell any either.

Just bad practice to use names or infer names without them being present or without facts to back up your statements. You say you should have deleted the names, but you chose not to. I also do not feel that people that have never bred dragons should give advise on how to bred dragons, when it is safe to breed dragons, or just general things about breeding. Just my 2 cents but until you do it yourself don't tell others how to do it, just not right all your knowledge on the subject has come from books and from online articles and posts here. things aren't as black and white as some people here like to think.

A. Yes, I should have taken out there names but this is exactly who I wanted to talk about the person who said to breed that 330 gram skinny dragon. I don't know, they are pros, yet hobbyists here felt that dragon should not have been bred by the looks of it. It was skinny had it's back bone sticking out and at the time of the photo 2 weeks gravid. Did the Dachius see that photo? I actually hope they did not by the looks of that dragon.
I have every right to give an opinion over a forum even if you don't agree. Yes, my knowledge comes from working at a rescue witch is hands on, breeding other reptiles, through books, personal experience, friends who are breeders that I question to death, and friends who go to great lengths to help others, and strengthen the bearded dragons as a species. So next year I'll breed then my opinion will finally count. It's sad, but I honestly know more then most people who ask these questions and have themselves already bred. Next year when I finally breed, and then be able to give advise. I'll kindly give you your 2 cents back. So until then if you feel I'm giving wrong advise please chime in and correct me cause I'm still learning
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Mystical Dragons

You probably won't make much that much money breeding this dragon (if you do it right). Babies are A LOT of work, and selling them is time consuming. You need to do it for the love of the dragons, not the love of the buck.

I have posted that one of our females is FAT at 350g. It's true, it's possible. Of course, she was also 2 years old before we bred her. We waited because we were worried about her small size. We gave her a chance to do all of her growing before she had to dedicate all of that energy to producing babies.

If you breed juveniles you can and probably will harm them. If several reputable breeders have told you that she is too small then she probably is. What's the harm in waiting another 6 months? You're going to have her AS A PET for another 6, 7, 8 years! What is 6 months really? It's for her own good to let her become as prepared as possible for this huge physical burden (laying eggs).

There, I'm done now.

See ya!
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Kelly Affonce
DeKeaff Exotics
www.dekeaffexotics.com
AIM: DekeaffGrrl

Ok guys (grim and matt) Enough already! All this "he said - he said" crap is gettin kinda old. Agree to disagree and come away as friends... ok?

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!?! (ha ha)

Peace,
Kelly
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Kelly Affonce
DeKeaff Exotics
www.dekeaffexotics.com
AIM: DekeaffGrrl

Agreed! In fact I thought they had "sorted things out" via email and Instant messages earlier today!

>>Ok guys (grim and matt) Enough already! All this "he said - he said" crap is gettin kinda old. Agree to disagree and come away as friends... ok?
>>
>>CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!?! (ha ha)
>>
>>Peace,
>>Kelly
>>-----
>>Kelly Affonce
>>DeKeaff Exotics
>>www.dekeaffexotics.com
>>AIM: DekeaffGrrl
>>
>>
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com