Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What light cycle do you use for your pets and why?
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
32 rats
50 mice
54 chickens
2 beardies
1 black rat snake
~100 hissers
1 giant milipede

24/7 lighting, Lighting isn't as important as usable heat. Keep that in mind. Lights are just an easy way to supply needed heat and are easy to tell if they're working or not... Cheers, Lance

Your animals never had a "night" time. I am not talking about heat, just light, day and night.
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

Many of the hobbyists here do not worry about night and day. The animals will seek out the temperature range that they need. Not all do it that way, though. I use 12 hours on and 12 hours off at my place. Do I need to? No. It saves on my electric bill and is more like nature, which means my animals will follow that pattern. My animals will take a little longer to reach maturity. That's OK. I have many friends who are more successful than I that also use that schedule. It will work either way based on your set-up.

The bottom line is what schedule you set up for your animals and how they do with it. Be attuned to what their actions tell you and change if you need to.

AH

My chickens, black rat snake, sav, and beardies are all on 14/10 light cycle. On at 6am off at 8pm, all year long. The herps have other sorces of 24 hour heat. The main reason for the 14/10 with my reptiles is so I have enough time to work with them without disturbing sleep patterns. As for the chickens, it is for egg production. Less light=less feed/water intake=less eggs=less money for all the pets to spend. I am not sure of the affects of too much/not enough white/day light for some herps.
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

The fact that many people are successful with the 24 hour "day" cycle proves that "night" is not necessary. The animals will burrow or hide for darkness and to reach desired heat levels. I like to use "night" to save on the bills and I like how my animals have behaved on that schedule. It depends on many other factors like background temps, drafts, enclosure placement, type of heat source, etc.....as to what works for an individual.

AH

n/p

When You say "works for an individual", You are referring to You and not the Lizards, eh? Zoo theory? Time may find You rethinking this, depending on the results that You desire...- Best to You- Mike

Depends on what you mean. I have hatched out monitors at home and when I worked in a zoo. It is really just like the arguement for 24 hour lighting. It has worked not just for me, but for others. Since it works that way as well, it is obvious that 24 hour lights are not needed - as long as other factors are considered.

AH

Just a few quick questions... What species did you hatch? Were they cbred by you? And what other factors do you speak of- are those other factors accomplished with greater benefit to the animal when combined with 24 hour heat(not light)...? Also, what were the hardships that you encountered while raising and breeding the monitors that you produced? And, have you raised the hatched offspring and repeated the cycle successfully? Thanks- Mike

You know we have been over these issues already. I believe you made a statement weeks ago that you have yet to hatch anything. So , how can you possibly say that your system is better? FR found a system that works for the majority of species he has worked with .... not all though. If you are using a system that does not produce results, why wouldn't you change something? We are all using trial and error.

Like I said in the beginning of the thread, the light is not needed, but it can be used and is used by many successful breeders. The species include ackies, Dumeril's, Timors, black and green trees, argus, argus/flavi crosses, and Storr's. The one person got rudi eggs with fully formed, dead in the shell babies. Had a caging accident and didn't get to try something different with the rudis, so I cannot include them.

AH

No Ahamp,
If you have read my posts previously, you will notice that I have hatched no varanid eggs yet. This does not mean that I have not received any from my monitors... This also does not mean that I do not receive any eggs from the 12 species of turtles and tortoise that I keep and do hatch anually also. I have kept and hatched many species of reptile with indoor and outdoor enclosures. I am just giving monitors a serious run now- and I am trying to copy Retes methods (unlike you)- because I do want to be successful with monitors, especially since the majority fail. You will also find that in my post I purchased land(lots of space to place buildings and greenhouses) to work my monitors on, not a cage... I believe Frank did this also... What do you use... Best to you- Mike

Again, when you say the species include: "The species include ackies, Dumeril's, Timors, black and green trees, argus, argus/flavi crosses, and Storr's"
Are these the animals that you have bred and hatched?

You see, alot of the monitor talk, success, and even babies that we see- are merely here say... There are very few people truly working the animals with intent to breed, and even fewer who are doing it right. So when people say that "this worked for others or lots of others" it's generally a crock of Dyanging(not spelled right but the Indonesians reading get the meaning)... Few have the evidence to show. Best to you- Mike

If you cannot read a simple post, I refuse to debate with you. I have hatched two species of monitors and thousands of other herps since my first in 1983. I did not claim to have hatched the species listed. Those are species of monitors bred by two close friends in the area. I only used those examples to show that there is more than one way to keep them and be successful with breeding. The topic, if you will remember, was lighting. Neither of these people use 24 hour cycle lighting. Nor did I with the species I have bred. All I did was give someone asking a question an example from both sides to show that there is more to keeping them than the lighting.

Secondly, I am envious of people like you and Frank, the Barkers, Ron Tremper, etc.. who have the resources to pursue these endeavors. All the power to you. I would love to see everyone be able to follow passions like that. After changing careers 6 years ago and moving all over the midwest for the job openings, I am lucky to be able to feed the few things I have.

AH

You're debating with someone who hasn't accomplished anything himself. You can't win.

There is no doubt that people have been successful deploying different methods. Lights on, lights off, both methods have resulted in eggs and hatchlings. The gentlemen who sold me my Kingorum uses Cypress mulch instead of dirt as substrate (he has a laying box) with great success. Different methods can be successful. Measuring success is the tough part IMO.

Sometimes the best way to learn is to try several different methods advocated by the true experts. However, I need to be convinced, through my own trial and error, that certain things work.

As an example, my Kingorum are on dirt yet they never burrow. The dirt is a simple sand and topsoil mix that holds burrows very well. They're also so small that I'm afraid of loosing the eggs if they lay in the substrate (lots of substrate for such small monitors). The breeder that I bought them from uses cypress mulch with a dirt filled lay box. I'm tempted to try this to see how it works. This helps me learn for myself.

My Lacies are another good example: I have four feet of substrate (dirt) in their enclosure. I've been told by some people that they don't burrow yet mine do. Yes, both the male and the female have dug burrows. Some of these have been very large, large enough for them to go in.

I gave the Lacie two choices for a laying sight as both have been proven to work for others. The first choice was simply the substarte. The secong chioce was a heated nesting box filled with coco-peat. My female laid her eggs in a four foot burrow in the substrate. She did not use the nesting box which has been deployed with great success by others. Conclusion: I don't have one yet as I'm still learning through observation.

I was one of those kids who had to touch the hot stove for himslef even though I was told by others that it would burn. This is how I learn and, even though it's painful at times, I've enjoyed it.

I agree. You raise a good point about the measure of success. Everyone will have a different one!

AH

The problem is most have minimum goals. For instance, without question, I can make nest boxes to work. But does that promote five, six, or eight clutches a year? The better the nesting, the stronger the female STAYS, and the quicker she reproduces again. All with on other input then simple feeding.

With this in mind, I have have lacies lay five clutches a year, I do not know of anyone else that has had that happen. Or I have a gouldi cross that just laid her 66th clutch. Again, I have never hear of and read about anything close to that.

Or with kingorum, five clutches and breeding at 4 months was commonplace with good nesting, for me. Our record was 12 clutches in one 12 month period(a year)Have the nestbox providers seen those type results?. If not, then you have your answer.

If you hang out on our site, you will read about a single female laying clutches merely weeks apart. I wonder why?

So while most are happy to get an egg, and it does not matter if it hatches or not. Then of course you will someday want it to hatch. Then progress for one level of success to another, to another, then another. Sir their are lots of levels of success.

If you have an eye, you can see what is "right" for an animal, and not Stressful for an animal. You should try to improve conditions, if you do, someday you will see improvements in the progress of successful monitors.

What i find funny is, in nature, they nest perfectly, the reason is simple, they have miles to find what meets their genetic nesting site perference. They have the exact conditions they are designed for. Yet in captivity some think that is a little box. But in order to get them to nest in the box, you have to make the rest of the cage unsuitable. Pardon me, but ask your wife if she wants to have a baby in a place she does not like. Or to lay on a bed of stones with giving birth? Then duck for asking a stupid question. If you do not currently have a wife go ask someone elses, hahahahahahahaha. The point is, monitors know what they want, but surely can be forced to do something else. The effect is, its taxing on them.

People have accused multiclutching as being stressful. Only my females are still going and theirs are long dead or sold. That is the hard reality. I guess if some keepers are not smart enough to figure out what monitors want, then forcing them to nest in something they don't like is ok. But please keep in mind, thats all about the keepers and nothing about the monitor.

Lastly, all kind of folks say this and that about what natural monitors do, you know, aboreal, semi aquatic, photoperiod, etc etc etc, yet force them to nest in a little box(for the keepers convience or worse) I understand, nesting is a REAL event for monitors, something they are very atuned to do, so I give them something as close to what they want as I can, even if its hard on me. Cheers

Raymond Hoser published an articule of breeding Lacies, his nested in DIRT BURROWS.

The articule itself was a bit off. It was more like he caught a bunch of lacies(8) and put them in an outdoor cage(in oz, were lacies live) The they laid in the ground. It did not give actual longterm captive information. But they did lay in the ground. Cheers

These people who have had "great sucess", how do you define this?
Or how do they define it?
I have not, but then again I stopped digging up and hatching eggs with my ackies, I just let them go too long and dig them up to throw them away.
In the many years Ive kept, and cared for reptiles, also helped many others do the same, Ive never once seen an example of a nest box being the first choice, or the best choice, it has always been a last resort (unless your cage is absolutely useless to nest in). Ive seen this with monitors, beardies, snakes, geckos, and many many other species.
Like I said Im no expert on sucess with hatching monitors, but I know that they will produce eggs and either lay them or attempt to in some bad conditions (after all they do so with mother nature calling the shots).
FR has a good point, I brought this up before to others, if you have a few lacies in Australia (in the same areas they live outside your front door), and you put them in a big outdoor cage, then add extra food, and extra heat, fresh water available all year, protection from predators, and the elements, you are bound to have sucess, if not your doing something completely wrong. How do you compare that with someone who keeps them on the opposite end of the world, indoors? You cant.

Our lacies, up to third generation, still cycle and attempt to lay, mostly in our winter, which is the same time of year they nest in Oz. This is a big problem.

Our lacies are in a totally different climate. We live in a desert climate, much like Alice. Except we have cold winters and they don't. We experienced 14F this winter. So we have extreme high temps, very low temps, extreme dryness. Ok, they like the monsoon season, one out of four is not all that bad, hahahahahaha.

I wonder what is different about Colorado? hahahahahahaha, Oh, I live at elevation, not like colorado, but 3000 ft. Lacies are not known for elevation.

So while none of these obstacles stop us, they are a constant set of problems that are in need of attention. I would think without those obstacles, it would be a little less work and much easier. Cheers

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I've given my monitors a choice. Nest box or substrate. They can choose where they want to lay as I really don't care. If they continue using the substarte, I may remove the nest box. If they use the nest box, I'll leave it in the enclosure.

I'm going to let the monitors decide what works best. I've taken ideas from several people who I respect, including FR, and tried to apply them. I'm going to try several of these ideas in an attempt to learn. Reading advice on a forum is one step in the the learning cycle. Experiencing success first hand is the ultimate goal.

It sounds like you are doing fine. Don't let people influence what makes sense for your animals. They are not there and cannot experience what you observe. Only you can make the call. By all means, try any advice that seems logical and keep giving advice based on what has worked for you. You may just help someone else along the way.People may have to try several different ideas before they find something that works. I will say once again that what works for one person may not work for another. I have seen this happen so many times over the years I have been breeding herps. I have moved throughout a great deal of the midwest and seen how some animals that were thriving at one location did not do so well at another. Some of these animals had been with me for 15-20 years.

The most unsuccessful zoo I worked at wanted there to be a "manual" for each species' care. I REALLY discourage the recipe way to keep any herps. I think it takes away from paying attention to the animal. So, when people tell me to do something a certain way, that is just a starting point as far as I am concerned.

Keep up the good work,
AH

Hello JME & Ahamp,
I think there is a huge problem with the reasoning that what "works for 1 doesn't necessarily work for another"... To get straight to the point, if the process can not be replicated by others than there is a problem with the process... You ask me why I continue to push FR husbandry?- Because it can be replicated- you will see results, I have. Even my animals that are too young to reproduce are showing reproductive behavior. My African monitors were combating shoulder to shoulder at one month of age. I now raise my hatchling turtles and tortoises in a similar closed trough and the growth rates are phenomenal- not to mention the monitors (they seem to grow daily!). The point is, Success, that truly Works, -should be repeatable by others... Best to you- Mike

I can see why you would say that. The problem is that is not what I have witnessed. I have my experiences to go on. I hatched my first herps in 1983. I have had home collections of 250 animals. I have worked at 3 zoos and dealt with literally thousands of animals where there was breeding and shipping to other zoos. Nearly all the babies I produce get wholesaled out to friends who deal with reptiles as their income. Both with the zoo animals and with home animals, we (the other people involved) would not have the same success with everything from husbandry to breeding as the other did. When things were broken down into what we could measure like temp., humidity, etc., everyone was doing things the same. I suspect that things like altitude and air pressure, along with latitude may have a greater impact on some animals than we know. It may come down to an individual animal's tolerances or ability to adapt. Since I do not know the answer, I leave it as what works for me may not work for you.

Example: At St. Louis there are 1000s of little house geckos and maybe a few tokays runnung loose in the building. When you would open some of the electrical boxes that housed the light/heat timer switches, some would be loaded with dozens of eggs. Hardly a natural place to lay eggs, but they adapted. The spot fit their bill of requirements. When done adequately, tubs may fit the bill as nesting places in captivity. Once we interfere with animals in any way, we've messed them up. The videos of the bengals could be looked at that way. I hardly think that air conditioning units and ductwork is the natural habitat for them, but that is where they were found doing monitor things. They adapt. The ones that do get to pass along their genes.

Bottom line: If you are happy with the way things are going, fantastic. When giving advice on the internet without being in the presence of the person and the animal, I prefer to give a range of possibles for them to try.
You don't need to agree. I'm OK with that. But, hopefully you can see what I am trying to say. Sorry about long post. I have a lot of stories.

AH

You quote all this stuff you have done, worked at 3 zoos etc(as you know, I worked and dozens of zoos, I discount working for others). WORD, that does not matter.

You say in general vague terms, all this and that. No problem.

THE PROBLEM IS, this is the internet and anyone can say anything AND THEY DO Also the internet is unique, its current, minute to minute. Its not last week or last month, or last year, or ten years ago. ITS TODAY Today, I just noticed our woma female just laid eggs. I was one of the first to breed womas decades ago. Then I did not keep them for a very long time. Its sure easier then I remembered(theres meaning to that)

What I am getting at is, you talk of all these animals(250?) but do not show anything current. How about showing pics of these wonderful animals. Use them to support what you say. It not only supports what you say, but also shows more then you can ever say. Thats whats cool on the internet, you can show and tell.

If not, I will simply think of you as another academic(again, look up the definition of that work)

Please do not be offended, you see we all have access to books, articules, etc. After all, this is the internet. Heck, you can GO to those zoos on the internet.

Remember, the real advantage of forums is, they are current and you can see whats being done. Show and tell(reminds me of kindergarden(is that a german word?)

Again, as you know, I like to end with the begining. As far as I can tell, you do not have an approach, or at least you have not "shown" it, you simply keep saying, I think and this stuff and that zoo did that when I was there but did not after I have left. Ok, we are not at the end.

You see, I have my own personal problems and that is, I have a lot of zoo friends, the good ones have done more after they left the zoos then when they were at zoos. The reason is, zoos are very restrictive. All zoos have a certain level of bureaucracy. Some are downright loaded with it. But all are restrictive.

Of course zoos produce stuff, they are in business to keep animals, they have them all the time, they have paid staff to take care of them. So just by having them, there will be a certain amount of success. But what kind of success are they having. That is the question. A zoo that has had monitors for decades and produced a clutch or hatched a baby is not success. That is total failure, by todays standards. Please do not be offended, I say that because the information right on this forum can allow a pair to produce hundreds of offspring. Not a zoo full only producing a few. For that, please blame the animals, they are the ones who do it, not the keepers.

You see, we are private folks and we fund our own work. So we cannot keep hundreds and pay others to take care of them. We want to see success with a few animals. We want to see success in the conditions of the average person. We want to see success in our houses, our garages, our yards, etc.

Its actually very simple, all these fine folks have to do is match a species with their resources, you know, if you only have a normal house, then get a small species, there are many. IF you have a whole garage or basement, you can get a larger species, if you have land and buildings, you can go stupid like me. hahahahahahahahahahaha. Truthfully its about that easy. The first problem is, stay in context.

It really is about that easy, because no matter what information is out there, if you start off with a water or croc monitor in a apartment or dorm. Your going to fail. So context again rears its ugly head, you first have to match, species with your resources. Then you can apply any sort of husbandry and have a very good chance of it working. In fact, monitors are so easy, I cannot understand why people fail.

You seem to want to fight a method, like FR does this, thats his method. Hmmmmmmm the stupid folks in the past argued that. The problem was, they were out of context with my methods. Truthfully I am a method whore. I will use and abuse any old method at any old time. Ok, I have a method, and that is, I am guided by results. Which may be what your saying only you show nothing to base what you say on. So your voicing your opinion, we heard it a long time ago. So move to step B, after voicing your opinion, support your opinion, with pics and cool things we all like to see.

So put up, I hear you, now I want to see you. Cheers

WOW! I sure have a way to get you wound up without even trying. I say that because I have not tried to do that. I did not even address you. I feel so powerful. hahahahahaha

Let's get past the zoo thing already. If you read the post, I was telling Mike that I had to go by my experiences. So I thought I better tell him what they were. I do not work in the zoo field anymore, and haven't since 2001. I teach science. I have had many good things happen and many bad things happen. If you pay attention you learn from either.

AH

Thats exactly what I said, GET PAST THE ZOO THING. I said that in the begining, the middle and the end.

Lets try again, What the heck do you do? NOW???????, and show us. Try some pics. I would tend to "get into" what you say, if I actually knew(to see) that you are actually saying something.

All I "hear" for you is, I did this(in the past) my friends do that(who, what, where, when)Or better yet, let them tell us what they are doing. I want to hear about what your doing, in the present.

The reason is, I really want to believe you, but unfortunately, so many other fine folks come here talking, but never ever support what they say.

The good part about the internet is anybody can say anything, which by the way, is also the bad part.

From what I can tell your information is heresay(from others) academic(not to be applied)historical(from the past) and I really cannot make anything out of it. As in, no details and no realities. Give me something real and in real time.

I have not read all of your posts, but in the ones I did read, you agree or disagree, but never stating exactly why. You say, from your experience. But do not explain exactly why or what your doing. You seem to want to agree or not, frankly, I don't care what people agree with or not.

You stated above something 250 animals, good lord, if you have 250 animals, you should have all sorts of stuff to share. So share it.

To agree or disagree, is meaningless, what the heck are you doing? why? and what are the RESULTS? and show it, PLEASE. cheers

I could total up all the animals Ive kept in my life and my 20 plus years with reptiles in captivity. I could toatl up all of the offspring from each species I produced and give amazing numbers to reference, but I wont do that, it means nothing to this converstaion.
The point being is that if one person is producing thousands of offspring from that species or a similar species, or multiple similar species, and doesnt need to do so with a nest box, and someone else is using a nest box, or UV bulbs, or any other method with a much smaller number of offspring, it makes common sense that you follow the advice from the more sucessful keeper.
I can truthfully say with my REAL EXPERIENCE that FR advice works better than anything else with monitors, or anyone who opposes his methods/advice, anyone who says otherwise is full of themselves and just jealous of his sucess.
I can tell you from the varanid communityand from many other reptile species keepers over 20 plus years, those who had problems with the need for nest boxes were using hard floors with no substrate (I have video of a few examples), or had a female with health problems, or completely unsuitable caging for nesting. So common sense tells me to fix the problem and you dont need a crutch to hold yourself up or to walk.
This is advice from my experience, not from nonspecific information posted by a mysterious new account holder who cant give any details, post any pictures to back any of it up, or give any examples to back their advice up.
By the way zoos and reptiles, thats a long history of going nowhere, why? Why do private keepers seem to come up with 90% of the advances in husbandry?
I do agree that there are good zoos and great zoos, there are bad and downright crappy zoos, so why do they lag behind the curve, all.

I started keeping my russians the same way FR keeps monitors (with different diet, of course), and they grow faster than anyone says they should. But try to get the people on the tort forums to understand that. They're still too caught up in tortoise tables (terrible design), and UVB producing bulbs, and they fail to believe any facts presented. I've recently tried to get some of them to accept the fact that pyramiding is caused by insufficient humidity (or in desert reptiles, inability to burrow to higher humidity), and presented them real data proving this, and they still claim that it all has to do with UVB.

Anyways, most tortoise keepers use dangerous practices (such as underfeeding and keeping them in open-top enclosures, or in climates they are not designed for), and they push those practices on others without trying to fix them.

If only they would try using a simple enclosed trough design with a good foot or two of dirt and some HOT basking spots. My tortoises have choices of basking spots ranging from mid-80's to 170's (Fahrenheit) and guess where they bask. They always choose the hot basking spot, and they only use it a few minutes at a time, throughout the day. It's more efficient that way. They can un-bury themselves in the morning, eat like pigs, bask for a few minutes, explore, maybe dig some more, bask, eat some more, bask, poop, bask, go back in for the night. This seems much more natural than having them sit under low-temperature basking lights all day long.

Sorry if I went on a HUGE tangent, but I'm just starved to talk to someone that keeps tortoises that has the intelligence to keep them in good conditions.

I lucked over there for a while and your right, they are so backward, its very sad. By the way, as are many of the other forums. Its very sad. On the colubrid forums there are a couple of good ones, but not many. Most torture their animals.

I do have suggestions, do not promote my name, FR. When you say a name like FR, you draw a line in the sand that someone has to cross. Most will not cross that line.

Simply suggest giving the torts choices(which is my method with all reptiles)

The problem is, other types of reptiles are much easier to breed, so they have limited success under poor conditions. Monitors are cool, they do not allow this. With monitors, you get it right or not. With torts you can use a huge range of conditions that "work" some are better then others, but lots work. There are few(no) monitors that can grow up, all bent and twisted.

It boils down to this, people form groups. If you worked at zoos you could better understand this. While working on exhibits, often tens of thousands of people walk by. They all want to be unique and different, but in reality, they form a few very distint groups. They basically say three things. 50% say one thing, 30% say another, 28% another. That leaves two percent thats original.

When it comes to husbandry and animals. People do not WANT to think. They want to be told. The reason is, people are trained to believe the written word(governments use this to control the populations). In this case, people "want" to believe other people, and they do not know how to believe animals. So they do what they read. Even if their animal fails.

So all in all, ALL I can say is, welcome to the two percent club. hahahahahahahaha cheers

I've started to notice that anytime I draw reference to you on that forum, people seem to automatically rebel against that idea. But that's their problem. For some reason they have much more problems than I do, since I (for some reason) would rather agree with someone that has been successful.

So I tried a different approach. They didn't care about your torts that I drew reference to since they refused to believe that pyramiding is caused by lack of humidity (or burrows). So, I gave them links to studies that have been done to prove that tortoises raised with no access to high humidity do in fact exhibit pyramiding, while those given areas of high humidity do not. That was a test out of 50 sulcatas over 5 months (wish they had done it for 5 years), and they even had groups set up eating high-protein diets, which (as you already know) had no adverse affects other than high growth rate. Protein did not affect pyramiding at all, nor did it adversly affect their blood-levels.

After I gave them this evidence, did they believe me? No, then they asked for the opposite. They didn't want to hear about a real world situation, but then when presented with scientific evidence (which is much less useful), they still didn't get it.

But if they want to through away money on those stupid lightbulbs, that's up to them. No wonder there aren't many people breeding tortoises. They treat their tortoises like they don't know what's best for them. Forcing a tortoise to hibernate by putting it in the fridge isn't what I would call a healthy practice. I just kept my tortoises in summer conditions all year round. One hibernated on her own (dug herself down and came out every week or two to eat, bask, and poop), the others did not. They don't need people to force them to do anything. They're all healthier than any other tortoises I've seen first hand, and I'm not going to tell them what to do

The more and more time I spend around other forums, the more I wish I worked with monitors. At least then I could deal with some people that know what they are doing

Its a very good thing your over there. Someone has to offer a voice of reason(thats about all it is) So you get to be the one.

It will not matter who disaggrees, or what level of education they have. As you know, the real PHD's, your torts, are moving on in spite of them. The sad fact is, you will effect about two percent. Which is far better then 0 percent.

The REAL sad part is, those two percent will do well and move on to something else. The reason is simple, two percenter's like a challange, and once you set them up right, its NOT a challange. They they will move on to something they precieve as more challanging. The young 2 percenters will move on to something very challanging, girls. Girls, will indeed ruin a good part of their lives, hahahahahahahahaha.

So just keep it up and show your successes, and only take those negative discussions as fun/intertainment. Kinda like watching TV, or something. Mess with their heads, then disappear and come back and show your stuff and mess with their heads somemore.

The real funny part is, man thinks hes so smart, yet cannot learn the simplist things. You know, like war, its dirty messy and gross, yet humans forget about that and make a war every ten years or so. It appears humans have short memories too.

All you can do is keep on being successful. Its just too bad we care hey? Cheers

Mike,

"What works for 1 may not work for another," is not the point that I'm trying to make. I do agree that any method, in order for it to be considered a successful method, must be able to be duplicated.

The method that you're describing has proven itself to be successful. Using Lace monitors as an example: I believe that the majority of FR's Lace clutches have been buried underground in a burrow (FR, correct me if I'm wrong). My clutch was also laid in a burrow underground. However, another gentlemen who has enjoyed great success with this species uses a nesting box. Both methods have been proven to work by these individuals. They've been able to duplicate results over and over again. In an effort to cover all bases, and since I don't have any experience, I've attempted to duplicate both methods. In otherwords, I gave the female a choice.

She chose to lay in the ground even though she dug several small burrows in the nest box. In capativity a nest box may just be another dirt pile to these monitors. My enclosure is huge so my female found proper temps under ground. Many keepers can't provide this type of space so a nest box sounds like a decent alternative since it can hold substrate and the temps are easy to monitor and control. Do Lace monitors see these as termite mounds or just another pile of dirt to use as a burrow? I honestly don't know. I'll leave the experts to debate what they do in the wild as I haven't experienced any of it first hand.

My point is that both methods have been deployed with great success. They're actually very similar. Both provide the monitor with suitable substrate and tempertures to nest in. How many people can design an enclosure with enough substarte to allow a monitor, like a Lace monitor, Croc monitor, etc., to nest in? Not many. I've fortunate in that I can. For those that can't, a nest box seems like a viable option. I'm going to use both because I can and we'll see what happens.

Hey JME,
I do like what you are doing with your lizards(saw your enclosure pics) and definitely respect your views and how you are providing options for your lizards. You are involved in something great as you know, just give those eggs what they need.
As for the nest box, I believe that monitors perceive them as exactly what they are(not a dirt pile) but a box with a material inside that is usable for nesting, or not. Or maybe the box is not usable but the material inside is... Either way, I think the animals will tell us what they like and don't.
I recall working with Cuban crocodiles in 1995-98. A breeding group of six- two males... They chose to be communal nesters and as such would lay all of their eggs in one nest that the group would then defend(from me haha and the other nest raiders!). The interesting thing was that they utilized the slumping leaves of a banana tree cluster that was at the edge of their pond for nesting material- would pull and move the leaves to the center of the pen in a bundle. I don't know if they did this in the wild but they made do with what they wanted (chose) to. The funny thing was that man provided crap that was dumped in for nesting material was just that to them - crap- they found what they needed on their own because it was available. Best to you- Mike

In fact give as many options as you want to, but if you see nestboxes being used, start a new redesign of your husbandry.
Im telling you to use what works and not a crutch.
The idea is that a nest box is not being used with sucess, why do I say this?
Simple, those who are using nestboxes, and the animals are using them are using the nestbox as a crutch, their cages are failing the animals. This is why the animals use the nest box, simple the box is better suited for their needs, think about that, very sad. If the cage is unsuitable to lay in and the box is the only place suitable, the cage must be horrible. I say this because Ive seen and had reptiles over the years that layed on the ground, underground, on wood, in logs, under plywood, and once in water, in the basking area, against the walls, and even out the door, each time I had to find out what the problem was and fix it to prevent these problems from affecting them next time.
So what have you learned from this, the nest box is not sucess, its a crutch. So stop calling it a "sucessful method".
This is why I can say that it all depends on what you call "sucess". Ive picked eggs off of a basking spot once, the ground was unsuitable for that reptiles needs, and yes few hatched. Ive seen far too many animals hold onto eggs for a few weeks later because they had to use a nestbox, thats sad, keep in mind this was never in my collection, Ive never used a nestbox, Ive always fixed the problem causing it to be the next option.

I have to ask about your statement, his system worked for the majority of species he has worked, but not all. Where do you get that information? and please explain yourself. Cheers

FR - Remember, this is going back a few years because I was absent from the hobby for awhile after I changed careers. A close friend used to talk to you frequently, and at that time you had not been successful with Asian forest species. I would have to assume this is the case since I have not seen you mention them.
That's all I was referring to. I did not go into great detail since I don't know all the details. And, don't ask who, please. Some people really don't like to have any involvement with this forum. Personally, I learn much more from your interactions on the other forum. And that's what I'm mainly here for.

AH

Your kind of missing the idea. Most if not all reptiles are only active for very short period. None that I know of, are "out" when the sun comes up and go back "in" when it goes down. Or visa versa if considered nocturnal.

Most reptiles are only active a few hours and then do down or in. That is in a 24 hour period. Then consider, they are only "out" a few days a week, for a few months a year.

The person in question said, she had a ratsnake. Well ratsnakes rarely come out at all. In the spring a few hours a day, in the summer a few hours a night, but only on SOME nights.

So what does the sun have to do with it and what does a litebulb have to do with it.

Of course, the first thing I recomend is for her to grab a litebuld and go outside and holt it up to the sun. Then ask her if that litebulb is the sun? like the sun? anything like the sun? I get the feeling she will be mad and feeling dumb that anyone would think a little litebulb is the sun. Of course we know the reptiles know what the sun is and a litebulb is, but people get confused. Cheers

Black rat snakes are very active during the day in the wild. In MD/PA/DE/WV/VA anyway. My black rat and beardies are active when it is light and not so active when it is dark. The beardies sleep hard when it is dark. My sav is active at all different hours to bask. What are your light cycles and why?
-----
Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

Hello,

Okay,
my beardies are kept outdoors and receive indirect light/heat from the sun- they are out in the morning and shelter mid-day then return out again in the late afternoon then seek shelter again for night...

My monitors are outdoors and indoors and the outdoor animals receive indirect sunlight and supplemented heat lights whereas the indoor animals receive only heat lights- the heat lights are on in both out and in, 24 hours a day...

My Uros are indoors and receive 24 hour heat from heat lamps...

All of these animals can shelter from the heat and since it is important to you in this post, the light also...

I maintain the 24 hour 365 day a year heat lights on the animals so that they may thermoregulate at will 24 hours per day. They may eat, sleep, live - at will, 24 hours a day...

I hope this clarifies things, possibly not- Best to all- Mike

Mike,

Do me a favor. Wait until you have some success before you go off regurgitating FR'S methods. Do you have one single original thought or observation that you'd like to contribute or are you just good at reading forums?

FR has been successful with a 24 hour light cycle as have others, have you? I don't use lights 24 hours per day. You know why? Because my animals sleep when it's dark out and I believe light cycles to be natural. Will 24 light hurt the animlas? No. Will you have more success using 24 hour lights versus a normal cycle? Prove it. My uros also sleep at night with the lights off.

I have good Lacie eggs in the incubator right now. I've only had these animlas for 3 1/2 months yet they have gained weight, bred, and laid good fertile eggs. Guess what, the lights go off at night! Am I an expert? No. Do I believe that lights need to be on 24/7? No. If these eggs hatch does it prove that lights should be turned off at night? No.

FR has had great success with 24/7 light cycles and has proven that it works. However, you have not so go easy on the preaching and the advice. Anyone can read a book or a forum. How about posting some results instead of regurgitating someone else methods over and over again. It gets really old.

JME,
I would not advise(strongly advise) others to use a method that I have not to date tried and tested with my own herps. To date I have restuctured not only all of my enclosures but my way of thinking about my animals as well. As I have kept many animals over the years I have experienced many successes as well as near successes and of course my overwhelming share of failures(at least they weigh on you more than successes when speaking in terms of lives). I guess this is just herping. I do believe however, unlike many experts, that by educating keepers to keep the animals properly a difference will be made in the lives of thousands of monitors, their keepers and that the monitor mortality rate will slow. I do wish you all the best with your captives- Favor granted- Mike

Where do your animals sleep? You see, this is key to understanding.

Then I ask, where to wild animals of the same type sleep?

If we are talking about Lacies, do wild lacies sleep where the sun hits or lites up? Or do they sleep where its dark all the time?

Do Lacies sleep for 10-14 hours, you know the period your cage is dark? Do wild lacies sleep for the same period.

Are they awake all lite hours? and sleeping all dark hours? Are they sleeping(?) because of lack of lite or lack of temps?

You ask this person for results, so I will ask you, I know you just got your first eggs, but its not about eggs. Have you tested any of the methods?

How about this, Try testing short period liting. You know, have the lites go on at 10:am for two hours then off. Then on again at 1:00pm for an hour then off. Then on at 1:00am for three hours then off.

I ask that because I have and I know the answer. The monitors do not care when it comes on, If they are cool(temps wise, of course they are always cool) they will go to the hot spot just before it gets hot. It does not matter if the lite is on or not. You can test this with a heatpad as well, they know about these things much better then you or I. They don't sit around getting all confused about if the litebulb is the sun, etc.

In short, they learn the resources available to them. They remember and use them as needed.

An example, a wild monitor may have ten or more reliable heat sources(actually more) On any givin day, to bask in the open in NUMBER 10. That is the last resort. The other nine are the first choices. Examples of these choices are, under rocks, under bark, in a hollow in the sun, In a burrow thats just under the surface. The common denominator is, these areas are DARK. They perfer DARK heat over lite heat.

RETES BOARDS, they are a method to allow dark heat in a wide varity of temp choices. They are nothing more, or nothing less.

Oh, John, have your friends in Oz. learned where baby lacies are yet. When that one fella that helps you was talking to me, he did not know. It was a wonder to all of Oz. They could not find baby lacies. You have to understand, at some times of the year, babies outnumber adults by at least ten times, yet they could not find them. A true wonder, that is.

They are in the DARK ALL THE TIME. I found them in one day. But then I already knew this about reptiles.

Of course, there are all sorts of reptiles in all sorts of areas(habitats) But we are not talking about all sorts, we are talking about a certain type of lizard.

I study many types of reptiles, and have for a very long time. None of those types spend over about 2% of their life basking in the sun. And they do so only as a last resort. Of course there are other types that spend a great deal more time out in the sun, some scelop species, some agamid species, some teids, etc. With these species, photo period may be more important. Heck, UVB may be a little more important in some of those species as well, but we are not talking about those species.

With most snake species and varanids(very snakelike) It appears many other factors are far more important.

A little more prespective. Varanids come from equatorial areas, in otherwords, hot areas. Where they come from, they have choices of many types of heat sources. The question is, is that a reason they do not exsist farther north or south, like so many other lizard species do. In fact, varanids as a whole are very restricted to equatorial areas. Of course, a couple of species, Lacies to the south and desert monitors to the north, venture a little off the varanid beaten path. But only a little compared to many other lizard types.

You live in Colorado, yes? You can go to a creek in the summer and see lots and lots of snakes, hundreds on occassion, yes? Try that in Coasta Rica or any other equatorial region. You may see a couple of snakes, but very few. There is reason for that. You must realize, in Colo. you have very few reptile species and very few reptiles. But they are forced to expose their exsistance. In tropical areas, there are many many many many times the species, and many times the numbers, but are much harder to find. Why?

I ask you this stuff John, because I like and respect you. I do not ask the original poster because I do not think she has the ability to actually think(to consider) in a realisitic way.

So please John, answer my questions, Thanks

Frank,

I can only answer one of your questions:

When the lights go off my Lacies either go into their burrows or hollow PVC pipes. I assume they are sleeping but I am not certain. I believe that they sleep due to a combination of darkness and lower temperatures.

I have no field experience and have never observed or studied these animals in the wild. Therefore, I can't answer your question about Lacie hatchlings in the wild.

In Colorado snakes are out basking in the open during most summer days. My son and I just got back from Costa Rica and, you're right, we did not see many snakes. Makes sense.

I don't have any problems with the idea of keeping lights on 24/7. As a matter of fact, the lights are always on in my Pilbara and Kingorum cages. The lights go off in the Lacie cage for several reasons, one being my electric bill and the other being that it gets a little too hot in there when they're on all of the time. I'm installing a swamp cooler this month unless you have a better suggestion. Ambient temps are reaching 90F in this cage when it's only in the 70's outside.

I don't claim to be an expert (far, far from it)and I try to apply methods that seem to make some sense. This is how I learn. The best advice that I've read from you is to observe your animals and make changes when neccessary. Until my methods (many of them your methods) bring me some success you won't see me presently myself as an experienced keeper on the forum.

Take care,

John

Hi John, so your giving others advice that you actually know nothing about. In fact, your being contradictory, as you mentioned you do both.

Remember, no one said a particular species. Maybe they were talking about pilbaras or kings and not lacies? So are you saying your Pilbaras and Kings do not get to sleep? So why would lacies be any different?

And what does you electric bill have to do with what works and what is appropriate for others to do. If that were my setup, I would use smaller bulbs. Then you would not need a swamp cooler. With a swamp cooler your actually working against yourself, your heating and cooling all at the same time, which makes that electric bill larger. Do like native americans did, make smaller fire and call it quits. Your weather is so wonderful(cool) you should have no need for cooling, and lots of need for heating.

The point of my follow up was, I indeed use about all combinations of liting and I make it all work. In fact, work very well(compared to others).

I do recomend using lites 24/7 only because doing that covers stupid humans for not setting up cages properly. In other words, you do not have to know what your doing. The reason is, the monitors do know what they are doing and with lite available at all times, they can work it out. If the lites are off, they have no option but to hope you provide everything properly. As prover on this forum, that is not common, as most folks have their charges fail.

A story, a long time ago, some German varanid keepers came by my house. It was warm out, oh about 108F. We were looking in my outdoor cages. Of course the monitors were hiding. So I lifted out the Retes boards. As I got to the bottom, the monitors were sitting on heatpads. The redfaced Germans(from the heat) bent over and touched the heatpads, and mumbled, "on", heatpads "on", on, on. I said, yes, they are on. I could see, they were a bit confused, why would any living animals be sitting on heatpads when its 108F out? So I said, got me, thats WHAT THEY DO.

I have said many times, that my outdoor cages are half covered. In the covered half there are lite fixtures. I have showed that many times, as well. I have also said, for some reason, the monitors will always pick to heat themselves under the lites then in the sun. I wonder why? Of course, if I turn the lites off, they go out in the sun, if they need heat.

The last part of that paragraph tells me, the monitors do not confuse the sun and a litebulb. They indeed treat them differently. In fact, they treat a litebulb, kinda like a heatpad. Or other dark source of heat. When you think about it, lite bulbs are very dark, compared to the sun. You can stare into a litebulb, but I do not recomend doing that with the sun.

In the vivarium articules, I told a story of a great reptile breeder coming over. His name is Erine Poop Wagner, and he is one of the greats with captive reptiles. Of course, hes "white" and comes from some nordic region(the great northwest) He looked at my cages one fine mourning and asked why the lites were on all night. Then mentioned photoperiod. I gave him a puzzled look and pointed to sun, which was just coming up. I said, sun, as I pointed, Then I said litebulb as I then pointed to the litebulbs. Then I asked, do they look the same to you???? I often wonder why those folks from the northern and very southern areas, confuse the sun with a litebulb.

For us who live with the sun, we do not confuse them. The sun is that thing that comes up in the mourning and if you stay out in it, burns the crap out of you and causes cancer and blindness. A litebulb is that thing stuck in the ceiling that allows you to not bump into things at night.

Which brings up a good question, can monitors see in the dark? in the shade? in the sun? in the bright sun? and which can they see better in?

If you were in an area with normal bright sun(like we have and were monitors live) I could prove to you in a few minutes, that monitors have very different eyesight and have some problems seeing in the sun. Not that they cannot see, but more about what they see. Without question, they see things at distance and movements. But up close(within three feet or so), they are blind as a bat. But in the shade, they have keen eyesight at all distances.

ALso I have to wonder why monitors when forced to bask in the sun, do so with their eyes half closed. But then I looked and found out, some species(ones that live in areas lacking shade) have windows in their eyelids, these windows block the sun, but still allow them to see some things. how very odd. Cheers

Frank,

I think you misunderstand (or maybe I'm not making myslef clear). I'm not recommending or giving advice on anything. I'm describing what I'm doing without making any claims.

The bulb wattage is very low right now but it still gets rather hot in the barn. I'm worried about those 90 F days outside. Even with the lights off it's going to get extremely hot inside. Do you need to cool you indoor enclosurers during the hot Arizona summer? If you don't then I certainly have nothing to worry about.

Yes, I do contradict myself as my monitors are all set up a little differently. The Lacies have light cycles, the Kingorum have 24 hr lighting and the Pilbabra are 50/50, some with 24 hr lighting, some without.

The reason is a simple one: I want to let the Lacie cage cool off at night. So far it's working as they've gained a significant amount of weight and laid eggs. I have no doubt that 24 hour lighting would also be fine. The cages for the dwarf monitors are on two seperate timer systems. One of the timers is on 24 hours because I have hatchling turkey's that need a 24 hour heat lamp right now. (These are pets, not feeders.) The other set of timers go off at night. I've seen no difference in the growth rates or feeding habits so far.

You'll find me contradicting myself as my set up changes.

Thats what I am getting at. That litebulbs are only tools to allow the monitors do achieve tasks. We can apply them in many different ways. And for the purposes of this thread, they have nothing to do with the sun or photoperiod.

You are using what allows some temp variation in the cages your(anyone of us) using. Different cages, different regime.

This is very true with not only regimes, but with individual monitors. Some monitors are so shy, they will not bask in front of other monitors or people. So we offer lites 24/7 and they can pick the time they WANT to bask. This is a huge advantage with groups of monitors.

Also, even the tamest monitor will come out to bask at night. Even if it basks in the day. They have needs that are not always met by daytime basking. And we as keepers do not offer what they naturally know how to do. In nature, they will use rocks heated in the daytime sun, to gain nighttime heat. Or the use of smaller hollows that heat up in the sun and take hours to cool down. Just two examples.

When you posted what your using, it infers that your method is the method of choice. In lew of your recent success, many will take what you said as a perferred method, when in fact, its just one method of many that can be applied successfully,

Why I bother to discuss these types of subjects is, most people handcuff themselves. That is, they believe something or do something that does not allow them to properly adjust to the needs of the monitors.

For instance that poster above with the nice cabinet for a cage. If they were to get V.prasinus or any dang monitor, what could they do? They cannot allow hot and humid, the cage would wrap all to heck. They cannot feed insects, they will get out. You cannot control either food items or the monitors as the doors are far to large and hinged. If they were sliders, you can use the door to control. Believe it or not, I have seen keepers cut their snakes and monitors IN HALF, with hinged doors. They cannot use deep substrate, as there is no where for it put it. I assume they putting lites in the top of the cage, how the heck is that going to heat the bottom? So in essence, that cage limits most things monitors require.

You see, its the cart pulling the horse, only us humans are suppose to be the smart ones. We should not build cages that predict how we keep monitors. Specially when we built the cage for the monitors.

Another great example is you. Did you have an idea how deep that Lacie would dig and how far? I bet not. But you were prepared. Most are not prepared. Now consider how big of a burrow a water monitor female would make. hahahahahahahahahaha. I would let someone else dig it up, hahahahahahahaha.

Thanks for playing John, Cheers

Frank,

I agree with everything that you're saying. Sorry if I confused the matter and wasn't clear. Light bulbs provide heat...period.

Take care,

John

Well, I have to say it got it covered. As I have monitors and some turtles and torts, outside(no assistance). But during the winter some "May" get litebulbs 24/7. I have 9 cages(large) that are indoor/outdoor. The outdoor part has the sun and the indoor part has bulbs 24/7 in the winter and off in the summer. Then I have about 24 indoor cages that have lites on 24/7, then I have about 20 cages with the lites on time clocks, but I have no idea what the exact duration is. I have some turtles and torts, that have lites, 24/7. Then there is the colubrid room with no lites except for the room lites that go on when I am in there. Oh I have a few pythons with lites 24/7. Hmmmmmmmmm theres more.

The problem I have is, they all do the same, are the same health, breed about the same. Oh, the outdoor monitors do not live as long as indoor monitors. Once they get old and decrepid, they forget to dig down and escape the extremes.

The biggist part of concern is, ALL my cages have the ability to dig down, go down, go in and escape the lite, heat, cold, etc. Which I believe is what their design is.

Oh by the way, for every blackrat you find out, there are hundreds "not out" Then what is the importance of that percentage.

ALso, with the above in mind, My animals are amoung the cutting edge in varanid reproduction, longevity, health, etc. Oh and I did that with snakes too. Cheers

Frank,
I love reading your posts. I don't post much, but I've learned a lot from you and Pete and I have to say that I had much better luck following your 'hair brained-so crazy they could never work' ideas. All I can say is there proof in the numbers.
JR
-----
Joe

Hello,
My monitors as a whole couldn't give a hoot about whether it was light or dark. They eat, sleep, drink, and regulate body temps whether there is light or not... The males twitch all over the females too- no problems- no light- no problems... Heat lamps provide visible heat for me- so I can tell when they are not working anymore... Even with my boas, photo periods and misting- BS- it's all heat that triggers them... Best to you- Mike

Yeah, by listening to the animals I've seen that my ackies and argus's use their basking spots at various times of day. So in trying to not limit them, I give access to heat 24/7 and they use it when they need it. It's harder to screw things up as a keeper if there are fewer variables...they make up they're own photoperiod in the 24/7 cages, so that's one less thing for me to worry about. If the electricity cost of a couple light bulbs determines how you keep your monitors, maybe monitors aren't for you. Cheers, Lance

I use 24 hour red heat and 14 hour white heat for herps. I have thermostats and timers so things stay constant. Boaphile thermostats are awesome.
-----
Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

I am old friends with the Boaphile, but I never tried any of his products.

AH

It has little to do with a couple of light bulbs. I know just as many breeders, hobbyists and professionals, that do it this way. What works for one may not work for another based on the variables mentioned in another post. The animals will tell you what they need under any circumstance.

AH

Ive actually tried to.
I throw most of the eggs away. In fact the monitors Ive kept and not given away or sold I considered reducing again, but probably not.
I reduced my collection over the last few years to a pair of ackies, a single male flavi-argus, Sobek, and a single male beardie that I hatched. I really have no interest in that colection getting bigger, but my ackies dont seem to agree, I have to dig up more eggs (from the other day) to throw away sometime soon. Of course the flavi seems to enjoy ackie eggs, its not like they will go to waste.

How many monitors have you hatched? Not beardies or gecko's or ducks.

Caging after they repeatedly had eggs scattered all over, and yes they required a nest box to keep them from being layed on the basking spot, under it, in the corners of the cage, in the water, and Im sure if it were possible she would have layed on the ceiling. The next eggs were buried in the same area almost consistantly, in the ground.
And if you read my responce it says REPTILES, not just monitors.