Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What do you guys think about catching a black rat for a pet as opposed to buying a CB one? I know CB herps are generally healthier, but sometimes you gotta go back to your roots and go out and catch your own pets once in awhile. Plus they're pretty abundant where they occur and by me I know they aren't facing any problems. Also, going out and catching oe and keeping it is a much more enjoyable experience than going to a pet shop and whipping out a $50 dollar bill(assuming it's your typical know-nothing-about-how-much-certain-herps-should-cost-store) to buy one. I just want some opinions, as I wish to catch my own black rat.
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Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

The pros and cons are this,

Pro for wild caught
An animal that has not been inbred
The experience

Con for wild caught
Wild caught stress
You can bring disease into you existing collection
A stressed animal might get diseased
Some wild caught rub their snout
Long quarantine period
Possible feeding preference for wild mice
Possible External Parasites

Might I suggest a compromise? I have a breeder who specializes in wild caught. I take him out snake hunting and he breeds some nice specimens we catch and I get locality specific offspring from the wild stock.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Since there is no shortage of CB snakes, why deplete the number of wild snakes? If one needs to take something from the wild, take a picture. From time to time I do take in a rescue snake, but I don't go out to remove animals from the wild. There is just no justification for doing so anymore.

Rick

Well said!
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

While there are certainly enough rat snakes to go around in the c.b. arena, if it is legal to do so in a person's state and they have the proper licenses and permits, it is their right to enjoy capturing a snake for there own enjoyment. I believe in taking pictures, but I also believe in the right to legally take the animal if I can properly care for it. Without the w.c. founding stock, you would have no c.b.'s! And now that we have plenty of c.b.'s, one should have the choice to buy or capture their own. All have made good points, but here's one for you, do you think I would take a pic of this and leave it out there? I don't think so! I hope someday to have a great varient of an easily kept snake for others to enjoy! Plus, tp all who naysay collecting for personal collections, not commercial collecting, have you ever been out in the field to experience what this guy is talking about? It is a choice, and we should all be free to make it for ourselves. He asked for opinions, here is a different one!
Todd Hughes

I completely agree with you on that one, Todd. Very good points all around. I collect and keep a "few select" wc animals, and merely photograph the great majority of the snakes that I see. Also, my main target is probably the most common lampropeltine in South Texas, and taking one or two from the wild makes very little to possibly no impact on wild populations.

On another note... I spend more money on my wild caught snakes, on fecal examinations (sometimes several for each animal), and preventative medications to eradicate parasites - than I do on my cbb snakes. I also quarantine my wc's for 3 - 6 months.

-Toby Brock

Your snake with stripes is a rare morph, but by taking it from the wild, you are removing this trait from the general population of wild snakes in your area. Who knows, snakes with this trait might have turned out to one day have an advantage over snakes with out stripes, but you have lessoned the chances of that trait ever being able to taking hold in the wild population.

I know there are a lot of hobbyists out there who want designer snakes. It seems to feed a need to have something unique and unusual. If you ask me, it is almost a fetish.

If that snake is a male, and you had your snakes on a natural breeding schedule, you could have brought the snake home, breed it to one of your females, and then returned it to the place where you found him so that he could have kept on passing along his unique trait.

If you return a snake to the wild after it has been captive you can do more harm than good introducing desease into a population you catch it you keep it.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Sighthunter is correct in saying you can introduce a disease to the wild population after releasing one you caught and kept for a while in captivity(a while=one millisecond in a cage with another snake-infinite).

Also...that is just one snake with stripes...there are others out there that remain at large and thus can pass on the gene.
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Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

Scott is right, I know there are more out there, I know of another person in my county that had one and someone close to us has a female. This guy will stay with me for the rest of his life, as well as the mate he was with. You really don't know how many of these snakes are here, easily one of the most populous snakes in Texas. And if the trait were superior camo, which I don't go for, they would be more abundant. How many striped corns are found in the wild? Not near as many as norms, gotta be a reason why. Maybe this egg incubated at a higher temp, lower temp, got more or less oxygen than the rest of the clutch, don't know, don't care, what I do care about is seeing if this trait is transferable to progeny. Kinda like the twin spots on the emoryi. This guy was not long for this world, I think I made it clear his field was torn up and it is next to the highway. I would rather see this guy mate than see it on the road as a strip of jerky.
Todd Hughes

>>Your snake with stripes is a rare morph, but by taking it from the wild, you are removing this trait from the general population of wild snakes in your area...

For this morph to turn up at all, there must be at least two more with the genes out there...

JPD
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

Black rats are by no means in any danger of being depleted just by taking one. What depletes populations is mass collecting done by the people who in turn sell them in mass numbers to pet stores.
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Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

In many areas, they are in danger, and they are protected by law. Don't get caught taking on from the wild in Canada. The biggest threat to them is habitat destruction.

I have no plans on visiting Canada anytime soon. I know they are legal to collect in my area.
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Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

What is worse than that is habitat destruction and/or road kill. I field herp as a hobby and sport. I see waaaaay more dor's than aor's and that is sad. But what is worse is seeing your childhood stomping grounds disappear before you can show your kids or grandkids the joy of seeing herps in the wild.
Todd Hughes

...you say there is no point in doing so anymore. Haven't you heard the phrase "Remember your roots."?(or something like that)

Telling someone to forget the past and never catch and keep herps but instead buy CB is like telling a music lover to forget old music such as Mozart or the Beatles. Many people would get mad because the past(be it past music or past pet-cquiring methods) makes many people happy. It also helps us remember the past(ie. how reptile pets used to be acquired or how the music people love today came to be). The past must never be forgotten.

Remember your roots!
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Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

"Remember your roots!" is not an arguement, it is just an excuse. They still have rattlesnake roundups in many parts of the West. They have been doing this for many years. Do you think people should still be doing this?

It is definitely an argument. Read REPTILES magazine. Bill Love says the same thing about remembering your roots. Now are you gonna argue with him? I think next to his wife, he knows a good amount about rat snakes, be they red or not.
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Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

>>...They still have rattlesnake roundups in many parts of the West. They have been doing this for many years. Do you think people should still be doing this?...

I doubt anyone who posts here would not jump at the chance to ban the sadistic and barbaric rattlesnake roundups. If it was up to me, those Sick Sons of B!tch$ would all be skinned alive and fried up for hyena food.

I also don't think its fair to draw a comparision between a herper collecting a Black Ratsnake for his personal enjoyment, and hideous government sanctioned and organized animal cruelty.

John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

>>>>...They still have rattlesnake roundups in many parts of the West. They have been doing this for many years. Do you think people should still be doing this?...
>>
>>I doubt anyone who posts here would not jump at the chance to ban the sadistic and barbaric rattlesnake roundups. If it was up to me, those Sick Sons of B!tch$ would all be skinned alive and fried up for hyena food.
>>
>>I also don't think its fair to draw a comparision between a herper collecting a Black Ratsnake for his personal enjoyment, and hideous government sanctioned and organized animal cruelty.
>>
>>John D
>>-----

definitely no comparison between rattle snake round-ups and a person collecting a wild snake or two as pets.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

You are comparing commercial collecting and "showmanship" to collecting a snake or ten. These guys do it enmasse and kill the catch for consumption by the masses. I don't agree with it, but it is legal, write your congressmen and let 'em know how you feel, or is it a waste of your time?
Todd Hughes

>>Telling someone to forget the past and never catch and keep herps but instead buy CB is like telling a music lover to forget old music such as Mozart or the Beatles.

That hurts Scott...really hurts...

John "Old Guy" D

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

A bite from that black rat of yours! That's a gorgeous specimen. Wish I could get another snake...but the ol' 'rents refuse to let me have more(since when is three snakes too many!?!? lol) Where'd ya get it?
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Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

>>A bite from that black rat of yours! That's a gorgeous specimen. Wish I could get another snake...but the ol' 'rents refuse to let me have more(since when is three snakes too many!?!? lol) Where'd ya get it?
>>-----
>>Scott

Funny you should ask...

She was a road rescue. Found on a heavilly travelled two-lane in WV. She had a concussion, and was bleeding from her glottis, but I was able to nurse her back to health. I kept her for several months - getting her to eat was challenging! She was kitten-tame, enjoyed being handled, and never once offered to bite. Sadly she would not stop nose rubbing, so I released her.

She was indeed gorgeous - lovly bluish-grey highlights on her head. I hope she has lots of babies out there in the woods, and stays away from roads and ignorant people.

-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

I do not support the wild caught pet trade for anything.
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

You own a savannah monitor so you at some point have benefited from the wild pet trade! I am interested in large South American colubrids mainly racers from the tropics. I have no access to captive hatched animals in most cases. I have used the information that I glean from my breeding of these tropical racers to help people trying to breed our largest native racer the Indigo. Are you telling me you feel I should be deprived of this research and for what reason. My endeavors have zero impact on the wild population as does most of the trade.

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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

I am sure that my savs ancestors were w/c but he wasn't.
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

So if I imported the wild Savanahs and bred them and you bought one you are in oposition to me?
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Your Savannah is CBB?? Are you sure?? Or was it CB?? The price you paid would be a indication and who you got it from would be another. If it did not come from a private breeder who sold it to you as a captive born and bred animal it is likely a farm born import that was captive hatched. That means that a wild female was captured gravid and held until it dropped eggs and then it was either sold alive or dead. Maybe just maybe they released it, but not likely.

If this is a Pet Co. "captive born" animal, then it is almost certainly a import captive hatched animal.

Savannah Monitors come in as farm raised babies from wc females for about $7 a piece to the first person who buys them from the original importer. It is pretty hard to produce them for that price. Fresh hatchling corn snakes sell for about the same and the adults take less care, food, or space.

Jason

He was hatched in captivity. He was a month old when I bought him. All I know is that he himself was not removed from the wild.
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

Most captive breed Savannahs are ranched. Parents are wild-stock, and the parents are not domesticated. Either the parents are harvested (caught) each spring and held until leggs are laid (as is done in some african nations), or they are kept "in wild" condtions in large pens. Most ranching operation in Africa consists of collecting adults when pregnant, and holding them until offspring are born, then re-releasing the adults. South America usually farm the animals, much like our southern turtle farms. In colombia and venezuela, such farming operations contribute a portion of the hatched offspring back to the wild or to conservation programs. The success rate, like in the terrapin head-start program, is much greater in these farming operations than in the wild. Financially, they need to sell their offspring to make it worthwhile.

I would like to ask shannon: Do you live in a single family home, townhome, etc? If so, your home is built on the graves of snakes who once inhabited your property. So, you do not mind killing them indirectly, by contributing to the real estate boom, but you do not like people who catch them from the wild.

...in your previous post asking about seeing cage set ups for black rats you mention that you have a 17 year old black rat FROM WILD COLLECTED EGGS. Therefore, I dub thee a hypocrite.
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Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

The eggs were found scattered in the woods. Most likely from a racoon. They would have died if they were not collected. Everyone was so suprised they hatch due to the damage and condition they were in. They were not dug up or anything like that.
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

You purchased an animal and in doing so you, YOU throw your support to that trade in which you criticize. If they had no market they would import no animals, period. You, YES YOU benefited from imported wild animals and by purchasing a hatchling you have blood on your hands. Bearded dragons are from Australia and Savannah monitors are from Africa. If that trade was illegal and this euphoric world in which you live existed there would be no Bearded Dragons or Savannah's. If you were a vegetarian it would go something like this "I don't eat meat or condone the killing of cows I just keep fresh beef in the refrigerator for emergencies!
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Like I said before, I am sure that my savs ancestors came from the wild. All animals ancestors came from the wild at some time. But as far as I know, he was captive bred and born. He came from East Bay Vavarium. Unless they are liars he was cb. They could be liars, I was told by several herp breeders that they are a great place. And all of my beardies came from a beardie breeder and friend who has no wc.
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

ALL BEARDIES ARE BRED IN CAPTIVITY! EXPORTING OF ANIMALS FROM AUSTRALIA IS ILLEGAL AND HAS BEEN ILLEGAL FOR A VERY LONG TIME!!!

Basically, you didn't have to tell us they were CB. And sighthunter is right about savs....almost all of them are imports.
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Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

Sorry, Sighthunter made it sound like he was saying my beardies were wc. I am not a huge herp lady so I do not know the laws of import/export stuff.
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

I too would like to apologize for making it sound like I went absolutely beserk on you.
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

Thank you very much. It is nice to "forum" with knowledgable gentlemen. Some of these KS forums can be so stupid/childish/and almost insane with anger. Thank you again

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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

Very pretty lady.

2 thumbs up!

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

Thank you very much I need to get some pics of my black rat and I.

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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

My experience in South America is that they do not have the passion for reptiles, or its very rare to find someone with a pet reptile, the market there is dead. Also, most kill snakes on site. In my experience, I've seen spilotes and boas killed on purpose. The locals know these two species are not venomous. They do it in spite.

Also, South America is not as full of "jungle" as you would imagine. Actually, it is quite shocking how much is gone. Some species survival (especially turtles) depends on Americans and Europeans reproducing these animals.

The snake seller who sells the snake to the market would have killed it or eaten it if a market did not exist for it. The snake was "dead" to nature just because a human had found it. I remember in venezuela, tour guides while clearing paths with machetes, would go out of their way to hack at a garden tree boa. The man stopped doing so after I explained that he just killed a $100 snake. Seeing a price tag changed his opinion. I remember in the llanos seeing a fisherman catch a mata mata turtle. He intended to kill it thinking it competes with fish. I asked him if he did not mind, could he give me two months wages. He looked puzzled. Then I told him the turtle you want to kill is worth $600. Now, he was shocked and decided to release it. Once the locals knew that the wildlife had value, they no longer felt it was worth wasting.

Real conservation needs to get away from the ideal and into the reality. Conservation only works when it working together with commercial interests.

Pointing out the true origins of Savannahs is educational. Attacking the person now for something he did 17 years ago is just being mean.

Maybe Dove is trying to change his ways. People learn and grow over time. Because he acted one way 17 years ago, but doesn't act that way now, and advocates that position doesn't make him a hypocrite; it just shows that he is human.

I was 11 when a zoo keeper I volunteered with gave me my rat and a sibling. My rat ate it's brother about a year later. The eggs were incubated for [bleep]s and giggles because of their condition when found. The zoo keeper that found them was a herp guy and figured he give it a try. And everyone was amazed.
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

>>Pointing out the true origins of Savannahs is educational. Attacking the person now for something he did 17 years ago is just being mean...

Seconded! Name-calling is uncalled-for in debate.

Personally, I see the CB/WC issue as a bit of a red herring when it comes to WC exotics. Obviously, no one in the US can walk out their door and come home with a Spilotes or D. m. rubidus (unless they live near Sighthunter and he's feeling generous). The CB hobby is wholly dependant on WC stock for these type of animals, and taking them from the wild has negligable impact.

By the same token, taking one Black Ratsnake for a captive, where it is legal and the wild population is healthy, is not inherently evil. Far more Black Rats (and every other native snake) are killed on highways, in backyards, and buried by construction equipment, then are collected by herpers.

Lastly, where it is illegal, and where native populations are rare and/or endangered, taking of wild specimens can only be justified in rescue and/or relocation situations.

As for the definitions of "rare", "endangered", "rescue", and who gets to decide those - that's a whole 'nother can of fish to open.

Cheers!

John D

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

Breeders need dove to purchase our offspring. Also, she provides a conservation incentive to Africans to not kill their monitors. Dove, just don't join PETA.

Also, a nice looking girl like you is a "Dream" to many reptile fanciers. Sorry, but I'm taken. But, I would have loved my wife to be into reptiles. Women who are into reptiles are AWESOME (better than girl-to-girl kissing). Not to mention, women who love football are up there on the todem pole too. Women who love reptiles AND football, no word can do them justice.

As long as you live in a state that allows legal collection and you pay attention to any parasite problems in the wild caught animal then it's perfectly fine to collect your own pets. The threat to healthy populations of snakes from non-commercial collection(meaning anything less than wholesale removal of populations) is highly exaggerated. I'm sure the number of snakes killed on the adjacent highway many times exceeds the capture rate by humans. And if the land it is on is about to be bulldozed for construction then there's really no question that the animal will fare better with you than as landfill. Plus I think a lot of people value the snakes they've caught themselves over ones they buy.

Regards
John

Totally agree with John. That striped P.g. meahlorrim was about 25 feet from a US highway and would eventually wound up as jerky. This is nearly the most common large snake in my area, next to ribbons, checkered garters, and possibly diamondback rattlers. I see way to many road kills of these guys, and constantly move them off the road at night. I say make the choice and live with the consequences of your choices.
Todd Hughes

Todd:
I don't have a problem with anyone not keeping pets (or not eating meat) for what they feel are ethical reasons. I draw the line when they condemn someone else for making the opposite choice. Animals are renewable resources. No different from trees or fish. As long as the take is within the replenishment rate of the population the resource will remain available. Deer and duck hunters long ago learned that if they band together and work with the government they can enjoy their sport and maintain its resources. Unfortunately there are far fewer snake hunters and our political clout is non-existent. But whatever protection the law allows us to enjoy our sport might as well be enjoyed while we still can. Better still if we could join up with other hunters and pool our influence maybe we could get the consideration that other hunters enjoy.
Regards
John

>>...Better still if we could join up with other hunters and pool our influence maybe we could get the consideration that other hunters enjoy.
>>Regards
>>John

Excellent point John!!

and I'm not just agreeing because we share the same first name...

Cheers!

John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

I wish I could say that I was optimistic about a good outcome for our future rights as snake hunters. For example, look at that legislation down in Texas to outlaw road hunting. Herpers are just not organized enough to defend themselves from the ECO lobbies and law enforcement, both of which would much rather we didn't catch snakes and eventually would prefer us not to be able to own them. If you look around the forum, unfortunately, you'll definitely find plenty of folks who knowingly or unknowingly support organizations that have as part of their agenda the prohibition of all private ownership of wildlife.

But enough gloom and doom. The foxsnakes are mating down in the basement and life goes on.

Regards
John

Don't worry John F., that dog won't hunt. It is being slapped around now, and may just die on the floor. It is supposed to be in session tomorrow, but it won't make it tomorrow. We are united, and now are on the watch! Texas won't lead the states in this bad bit of legislation! Update yourself over on the grayband forum, Yeehaw!
Todd Hughes

The herp laws in Texas seemed to be among the most reasonable I've heard of. But the tide always seems to be against reasonable.

Best of luck down there
John

You are right as well, only if we unite and let our voices be heard in unity will change take place! Wow, sounds like an ad for the army or something! I urge everyone to get involved with their own legislative process and use it, or else something that affects you deeply will sneak in and catch you unaware! We are forming a group of herp club members from all over the state to watchdog this and others like it, in order to make sure this never happens again. We will know when something (herpy?) fishy comes up in the future. Looks like we may have a few reps on our side and plan to woo them to keep our affiliations strong.
Todd Hughes

HooRAH!

You GO Todd!!!

Slap 'em down agin!
-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

John that fight is being waged now in the Texas courts and some of us with our ears to the ground, so to speak, have banded together to put laws into being that respect the animals and ourselves in the process. You will find no one with a greater love for the outdoors than I, and I will be on the side that fights for my and my kids' kids rights to go outdoors and see, smell, touch, hear, and yes, taste the bounties of this great land. Sustainable resources, protected habitat, sound manageable game and non game laws, yep, you bet! I enjoy it now because I pay for the right to do so with licenses and permits, and donate my time to education of young and old alike. Forgot to mention, never bred anything yet, sold anything yet, and have enjoyed my "hobby" for 35 years now, what'cha suppose I do with all them herps? I don't eat 'em! I teach Scouts and Scout leaders about them.
Todd Hughes

Let's join up with deer and duck hunters!

Good point, but that dose sound more like rescue work then collecting. Your motivation would be saving the animal's life. Habitat destruction is the greatest threat to wildlife. That is why I joined the Nature Conservancy. I wanted to put my money where my mouth was.

I look at animals as a renewable resource that can be managed for the good of the people who make up this country. As long as the take doesn't lead to the extinction of the species involved I am completely comfortable with responsible harvesting of snakes for any reasonable purpose (including eating them if that happens to be your pleasure). I'm sure the Nature Conservancy does good work in preserving land from construction but their plans do not allow for recreational hunting of snakes. So they would not be my choice for a charity to contribute to. I favor hunting organizations. Unfortunately snake hunters don't have much clout among hunters. Something that I hope someday to be altered.
Regards
John

I don't think there is anything wrong with what you propose. You aren't taking a species from the wild whose population is in danger and you are only talking about taking one (or a pair?).

The only real problem I have is those people who collect things for the purpose of selling them. Of course, if you have bought a snake at a petstore, in many cases that's where they come from.

It amazes me how many people will take a "no WC" stance, and then go out and buy farmed "cb" ball pythons at the local petstore. Those animals are taken out of the wild as well, just before the eggs were laid. And that large scale importation is much worse than anyone taking a snake (or even a dozen) out of a wild population.

-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

>>What do you guys think about catching a black rat for a pet as opposed to buying a CB one? I know CB herps are generally healthier, but sometimes you gotta go back to your roots and go out and catch your own pets once in awhile. Plus they're pretty abundant where they occur and by me I know they aren't facing any problems. Also, going out and catching oe and keeping it is a much more enjoyable experience than going to a pet shop and whipping out a $50 dollar bill(assuming it's your typical know-nothing-about-how-much-certain-herps-should-cost-store) to buy one. I just want some opinions, as I wish to catch my own black rat.
>>-----
>>Scott
>>
>>Reptiles
>>--------
>>1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
>>1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
>>0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
>>1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
>>0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)
>>
>>Other
>>-----
>>1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
>>1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
>>0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

Go for it.Just keep it quarantined from your other snakes.Debug it if needed inside and out.I would do both just to be safe.Around here we call them black pilot snakes.Jet black,and 9 out of 10 are found off the ground.Ive never seen one over 5 feet yet. The majority of them didnt bite.Most did musk.They seem to do better at room temperatures.
-----
If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

What do you guys think about catching a black rat for a pet as opposed to buying a CB one?

I understand where you are coming from. I live in the range of Pale Milksnakes and probably even have then on my property. I can comfortably afford a captive bred specimen, even a locality specimen from my area, but part of me would really like to collect my own pair and keep them.
-----
Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Malaysian locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

>>What do you guys think about catching a black rat for a pet as opposed to buying a CB one? I know CB herps are generally healthier, but sometimes you gotta go back to your roots and go out and catch your own pets once in awhile. Plus they're pretty abundant where they occur and by me I know they aren't facing any problems. Also, going out and catching oe and keeping it is a much more enjoyable experience than going to a pet shop and whipping out a $50 dollar bill(assuming it's your typical know-nothing-about-how-much-certain-herps-should-cost-store) to buy one. I just want some opinions, as I wish to catch my own black rat.
>>-----
>>Scott
>>

I am going to answer this BEFORE I read any other responses.
It is very possible I will repeat what others are saying so sorry.

I personally DO NOT have a problem with taking a few wild specimens as pets. I feel it can also be beneficial by bringing new blood into captive populations.
I DO NOT agree with taking large numbers for commercial purposes but with abundant species such as black rats I seriously can not see an occaisonal specimen taken as a pet being detremental to the overall wild population.
Take my area for instance. I have tried to find other people keeping corn snakes and rat snakes. There are very few in my area and of the ones I know about, none have wild caught specimens. Now, If I go herping and happen to find a nice black rat specimen and decide to bring it home I just don't see how this can deplete the wild population.
They are pretty abundant here.
Same with species such as northern water snakes, black racers, garters, worm snakes, ring necks and even king snakes.
Now, if it is a protected species, such as the eastern box turtle, I would NOT take it from the wild or support anyone who would.
Now, it seems that corn snake numbers have droped in my area so I would be very hesitant to remove one from the wild but where populations are higher I would not hesitate.

wild caught Alabama corn snake

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Do you believe in taking the wild box turtle if it was on land slated for construction? Running over it with a bulldozer, where is the conservation in that?

...I would expect the captive born to be cheaper. I would NOT go to a pet store...I would get a good deal at a show. And it would cost me less to buy a healthy CB than pay the vet bills to make sure that a wc was OK.

My biggest gripe, however, is with the wc imports. I think the practice is deplorable. Don't get me started on THAT one. Duffy

...I just hate it.
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

Wow, this discussion could be used for a research paper on political arguments and biases. The problem that I see when reading through all of these is that 95% of the arguments are based on what people think with very little reason based on scientific fact. What does the research say about taking animals from the wild. In what specific areas are the populations at a level that requires abstinence, what areas control, and what areas doesn't it matter? As keepers of herps, we are all at least amateur scientists and some of us professional. It saddens me to see a discussion that started as a simple question degenerate into politics with analogies and emotions substituted for fact and reason. I'm not going to get into which side I feel is right because I don't have enough knowledge to give an answer that isn't biased with my personal beliefs. Just try to remember the difference between I "know" and I "feel."

On a lighter note, I found my missing female motley corn yesterday. She had gotten out a week ago and I had just started shopping for a new mate for my male when I heard a rattling on the book shelf and there she was. I don't know what she was rattling at as she is the most docile corn you'll ever see, but it was lucky for me.
-----
Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

the question was "What do you think?"
It wasn't what scientic proof can you offer to substantiate you opinion.
opinion....and that's exactly what we got and gave, opinions.
In other words....what we thought.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I understand that opinions were asked for, but you can't argue using opinions, or you can, but as you see above, it leads to mean spirited and insulting comments because no one can win based on an opinion...then again, I suppose this is an opinion too, so I guess I should just leave it alone...

Not that anyone should listen to me, I just enjoy reading discussions in the forum, especially when there are differing viewpoints, that's how you learn, but oh, nevermind...
-----
Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

n/p
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

wink, come back, learn, by all means, don't stick your head in, say something then retreat to lurkdome! Support your "opinion", you will be better thought of than if you say it then split! He will do what he wants regardless of anyone's opinion, I think, let yours be heard!
Todd Hughes

Just wanted to let you know that I did reply, but put it on the wrong end of the spring. If you're curious and didn't see, go to the end of the "Great Debate"

By the way, the roads in my backwoods section of Virginia look similar. I have a 12 mile drive to work through the woods and I dodge my fair share of box turtles, black rats, and black racers. Unfortunately a lot of them are already dead and the road is trecherous (spelling?) enough that I can't stop to move them without endagering myself. I've only been here for 5 years though, so I don't know how the "sampling" compares to historical numbers.
-----
Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

...WHAT'S YOUR STANCE!?!?!?!?! Lol just kidding man.

congrats on finding your corn! you got any pics?
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

Here's a picture of her after the shock of being found...

Here's the bookshelf, she was on the third shelf from the top behind Pushing Ice. She's about 30" long and was curled into about as small a ball as is possible. I'd like to think that she missed me and was rattling to get my attention, but more it's more likely that she was spooked by the bass from the stereo in the other room.

-----
Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

Try these

-----
Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

[img]http://www.geocities.com/wink0083/Candy1.jpg[img]

Guess that will teach me not to click post before preview.
-----
Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

-----
Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

1) Beautiful corn!

2) Don't lie....we all know you were really going to play Pokemon Master Trainer and she was behind that lol. Just kidding but man that game was fun.
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

Hey, you're never to old to rip it up with some Pokemon!!! I keep trying to get my snakes to play with me but they seem disinterested...Trully though, I bought that to play with my nephews and we could never figure out the directions so it pretty much devolved into a fancy game of Tittly-Winks. Nothing makes you feel small like being outsmarted by a board game...
-----
Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

Ah the rules were easy for the board game! I just don't remember them now because it's been so long.

Now if you excuse me I think I'm gonna whip out my gameboy and play some goold old Pokemon Red...or wait should I play Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening? lol
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

Hey Wink!

Nice shelves, man.

My ball liked shelves too. She had a preference for reptile books.

John D

-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

At least it has good taste, it amazes me just how much balls climb when most every book I've read says that they are completely terrestrial. Mine even like to eat like my tree boas.

-----
Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

wink, shame on you, I see Pokemon trainer game up there, aren't you s'posed to "get 'em all"?! hahaha, I do Pokemon snap, mostly nowdays but still have to get one now and then! Glad your corn is safe n sound!
Todd Hughes

Let's all humm a few bars of the TETRIS theme!!!

-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

Here are some examples of some hot topics today:

Abortion

War

Pete Rose...if he should be in Baseball's Hall of Fame though he gambled while he played and went as far as to bet against his own team

Should Barry Bonds be celebrated when it's obvious he used performance enhancing drugs and just hasnt admitted it

Cloning
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)

Sorry wink, but I don't have to be a scientist to know what is going on around me. I am a naturalist, spend a vast amount of time outdoors and a field herper. I know when my area is being depleted of a resource and when it is plentiful. I do road kill studies that would give you staggering numbers, but 98% of the land in my state is either privately owned or owned by the gov't. The only #'s I can put up are for the 2% I have access to, and they say there are a boatload of P.g.m.'s out there and not too many with stripes, lol! Texas rats are quite plentiful, according to my "research" and finds in the field, they are opportunistic, feed on birds and mammals equally and are quite skilled at doing so. Black rats intergrade with T-rats. I am going by others sitings of them in the western range that says they are plentiful. I understand they are not so plentiful in the north and east, but not many of us have the data as you say. I still say if it is legal, go for it, if you can responsibly care for it. THAT is really the main point. If you have the time, money, and will to do so, do so! Sorry if my politics got in the way of the welfare of the snake in question, lol!
Todd Hughes

See my post from my last trip(just got back last night) in the field notes forum and you may understand why I see positive things in collecting a few animals. Warning! There are some live and dead shots of what was found, but I think you may be able to see my point of view, after all, I see and respect yours, just try to walk a mile in my shoes, but not while I;m in em, lol! Go ahead, look, I dare ya'!
Todd Hughes

A scientist is someone who bases their ideas, theories, and arguments on analytical data, not the way they feel at the moment due to a limited set of personal experiences and biases.

It seems to me that you are a scientist in that your arguments are based on field observations. I may not have presented myself as I intended in my first post, so let me restate the position that I was going for...

Arguments are only valid if they are based on some type of a verifiable fact. Opinions are like rectums, everyone has one.

The reason I posted was because I saw something starting to happen which I see happen far too often in online forums. Since it is a free and (relatively) uncensored medium, people forget logic and begin to attack others rather than defend their own position. For someone like myself who is relatively new to these forums, (I used to try but had snail slow dialup which just frustrated me) the atmosphere comes off really negatively and you don't want to post something because you're afraid to be called stupid.

I have corns, balls and boas, but tend to only browse this forum because the discussions usually seem to be respectful and open to all no matter the background. Spend some time in the ball forum or the corn forum and it doesn't take very long before you'll read one person calling another an idiot. I was not trying to attack anyone or make any judgements, I was just trying to get everyone to take a step back and chill out. Reptile enthusiasts need to stick together to best protect our scaled friends. If you have a different viewpoint than someone, give them a reason to change their mind.

Like I said before, you can argue purely based on emotion and unfounded opinion, but then you are a politician. This is why things like stem cell research, climate change, habitat protection, oil drilling, etc. etc. aren't properly dealt with. Politicians argue with hearsay (I don't know how to spell) and emotion building rhetoric rather than facts that can actually be compared.

If I've offended anyone or overstepped my bounds, I apologize.

On a lighter side, I just finished building my new DOY rack so that I won't have to chance losing any more corns. It's definitely not pretty, but it was cheap (~25 bucks) and I'll post pics tomorrow.
-----
Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

I know running over a snake with a bulldozer will kill it. I haven't personally seen a snake ran over by a bulldozer. But, I know if one ran over me I would be dead. So, it is reasonable to conclude that running over a snake would equally kill it.

I know that collecting is better than just flat out killing the snakes. At least the animal lives. And it is better to go out in the woods and just shoot a snake, than to bulldoze the forest. When you bulldoze the forest, you kill that snake, its eggs laid under some rotting log, and all its offspring, its mate, and its snake buddies.

So the logical argument is: What promotes conservation more: preventing the occassional collection or bulldozing the forest?

Ask this question to conservation organizations.

Many of us own a house or have family who own a house. Housing developments are basically wildlife cementaries, built over the habitat needed for the animals to survive. Either the animals are bulldozed over, killed by new residents fearful of snakes, or are dead on the road. Most die. Its hypocritical to complain about limited collection by individual for personal pets, when we allow cars to run them over, construction to destroy their habitats (at least collectors don't distroy the re-cover capacity of a species). Why not pass laws that provide significant fines or jail time for running over and killing reptiles with a car or any other apparatus, force builders to collect every last reptile from areas where they build, and force builders to donate to conservation parks or easements, acre per acre of land they bulldoze over. These are true conservation movements.

I beleive people who catch their own reptiles provide greater care for them because of the personal experience of finding them, the fond memories shared and that the reptile represents, the work involved in finding reptiles, and the infusion of new genetics. I personally saved a black rat in my backyard. The reason I said saved is, any of my neighbors would have killed it on site. Only in time it would have been killed. Collectors and hobbyist care about the conservation of reptiles. How does the state protect conservation by killing the desires of those who most care for the conservation. In exchange, the should focus their energies on habitat conservation, and in education the ignornant who kill reptiles of their importance. To tie our hands, will just kill the passion we have and the passion we pass on to our kids.

...my thoughts of getting a black rat snake are in the past. I am now focusing on the reptile that has eluded me for so many years....the northern black racer lol.
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Scott

Reptiles
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1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
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1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat* (Clubber, R.I.P.)
0.1 Albino Rat (Isis)