Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So, I understand that Biaks are largely imported due to their great feeding response. Isn't that one of the biggest issues in dealing with imported GTP's? I mean, if a reputable dealer (i.e. lllreptile) claims their wc biak juveniles are eating well, and I can personally asses the snake which seems to be in good general health, is it really that great of a risk to purchase such an animal? Assuming the snake is provided with adequate housing, temperature and humidity as well as treated for parasites, should there be any real concern as to why this animal would not do very well (and possibly even breed) in captivity??

The biggest problem with w/c, or in most cases these days farmed bred are the parasites that come with the snake. Sudden death in chondros is all too common in imports and getting rid of some of the parasites and blood diseases can be difficult. I've had too many friends that have spent literally thousands on imports trying to get them well. You can get relatively cheap (nearly as cheap as imported) Biaks right here and have the benefit of knowing who the parents were and when it was born. Most stuff that comes in now is not w/c. I believe that it is illegal to import w/c any more and only cb/fb animals are allowed to be imported.
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4.5~Cornsnakes
1.2.2~Green tree python
1.0~ATB
Dogs, cats, horses....
www.franclycac.com

"I believe that it is illegal to import w/c any more and only cb/fb animals are allowed to be imported."

True Meg, but they are still captured and exported quite often. I would say buy USA CBB. Unless you are experienced enough to deal with the issues that come with imports, get CBB. You will be spending more on imports in the long run.

Brandon Osborne

Brandon Osborne Reptiles

Thanks Megs and Brandon. I think I will do just that

Just to add a bit of further info

Indonesia certifies that all outbound GTP's are captive born and bred in breeding farms so that is accepted by USFW on recieving them even though there is only one actual breeding farm in indo that produces 800-1000 animals per year and about 25,000 animals per year are imported. Animals represetned as Wc (which is accurate) have indo export paper that says they are CB.

Biaks tend to be heavily imported because of how easy they are to pluck from the bushes - easy to get a bag full = lots of export anywhere.

Generally speaking it is important to be aware that most of the rants about wc animals are brought to you by people that have never had one, same deal on farm rasied. No idea of the expereince of the posters here but having spent literally 2 hours listening to Rob Worell give me a speech on farm raised animals and sudden death he then confessed he'd never actually had the animals - he had "heard". This is typical - I don't disagree with the strong sales pitch for CB but that is what it is.

Cleaning WC critters is a bit of work - and if you are foolish enough to take it to your local vet and do "whatever" they may think it can cost huge $. You should expect a loss of about 1/3 on average and you'll need to run good worming and fecals ... which is also true no matter where you buy the critter - plenty of usa cbb animals from "known breeders" have parasites on arrival, that is my personal experience.

When you have GTP's you gotta deal with parasites regardless of source - while a goal in many other herps there is not a program of source and husbandry that will allow you to ignore parasites as an issue.

And with GTP's the old adage does hold true - the uglier, nastier, and more of a pain in the ass overall a WC animal is the more likely it is to be an incredibly prolific breeder.

WC Green Tree Pythons are about equal to delicate monitors in difficullty level on establishing them.

All the best,

Ross
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Spruce Nubble Farm, Inc. - Green Tree Pythons, Carpet Pythons, Carpondros, Kinkajous, Horses
http://www.SpruceNubbleFarm.com
69 Spruce Nubble Road
Strong, ME 04983
(207)-684-3539
eFax: (512)-853-3820

Ok, here goes nothing.

Just to add a bit of further info

Indonesia certifies that all outbound GTP's are captive born and bred in breeding farms so that is accepted by USFW on recieving them even though there is only one actual breeding farm in indo that produces 800-1000 animals per year and about 25,000 animals per year are imported. Animals represetned as Wc (which is accurate) have indo export paper that says they are CB.

I think 25,000 imports is WAY overexaggerated. Maybe you know something that most of us don't, but I think imports account for a fraction of your stated numbers. I know there are lots of petstores, ,and dealers, and yada yada yada. I know large importers, and sometimes a shipment can be had of 30-40 animals here and there......sometimes 50. But it only happens a couple of times a year. Why.....because they have to be passed off as FB stock with the "proper paperwork".

Biaks tend to be heavily imported because of how easy they are to pluck from the bushes - easy to get a bag full = lots of export anywhere.

True statement. You'll probably find more biaks than all other locales combined.

Generally speaking it is important to be aware that most of the rants about wc animals are brought to you by people that have never had one, same deal on farm rasied. No idea of the expereince of the posters here but having spent literally 2 hours listening to Rob Worell give me a speech on farm raised animals and sudden death he then confessed he'd never actually had the animals - he had "heard". This is typical - I don't disagree with the strong sales pitch for CB but that is what it is.

This is where I'll go along with the "sales pitch". I have had "WC" imports from hatchlings to adults. Of the dozen or so I've had, only 3 are left alive. Most were plagued with "sudden death syndrome" at around 2 years in captivity. Being that I have a strict quarantine standard, my most recent death was from a very nice HIGH WHITE aru that I had for exactly 2 year. This was an adult female with a very aggressive feeding response. Last year, my paradox male, also right at 2 years....SDS.

Luckily, I've had two females, that are now very long term in my care, produce two clutches each for me. Unfortunately, one is now eggbound and went to the vet for treatment today. I have a very nice canary that will hopefully be ready for breeding within a year.

Sudden death is a REAL concern with imports. I could list many instances from REAL, EXPERIENCED keepers and BREEDERS. It is not something made up by breeders to promote sales. I see nothing wrong with the occasional import if you're up to the battle. But nothing is better than true cbb.

Cleaning WC critters is a bit of work - and if you are foolish enough to take it to your local vet and do "whatever" they may think it can cost huge $. You should expect a loss of about 1/3 on average and you'll need to run good worming and fecals ... which is also true no matter where you buy the critter - plenty of usa cbb animals from "known breeders" have parasites on arrival, that is my personal experience.

Again, WC animals can be a bit of work. The the two female I have that are LTC were a piece of cake once they got settled in. As far as vet costs go, it depends on how well you trust the vet. I am very lucky to have the vet I use. He is VERY good and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. He also genuinely cares for the animals' well being.

Parasites can come from feeding live rodents as opposed to frozen.....or from being imported. Live rodents can harbor pinworms, which are a common parasite in reptiles, among other nasty things. If you are getting cbb animals with regular parasite loads, you may want to go to a different source.

When you have GTP's you gotta deal with parasites regardless of source - while a goal in many other herps there is not a program of source and husbandry that will allow you to ignore parasites as an issue.

It's always a good idea to check, but again, check the sourse as well.

And with GTP's the old adage does hold true - the uglier, nastier, and more of a pain in the ass overall a WC animal is the more likely it is to be an incredibly prolific breeder.

Not in my experience.

WC Green Tree Pythons are about equal to delicate monitors in difficullty level on establishing them.

Not all that difficult to establish in my opinion. Just expect unforseen problems to occure. Expect the worst and hope for the best. Or just buy CBB!

Peace
Brandon Osborne

I can also attest to the problems of imports. My good friend bought an import and spent over $1000 treating his "cheaper costing" animal. The RI and parasitic loads the snake was carrying almost killed it then. Who knows if it will make it to three years old. I didn't just hear this thru the grapevine...I spoke to him personally as he was crying on my shoulder about it.
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4.5~Cornsnakes
1.3.1~Green tree python
1.0~ATB
Dogs, cats, horses....
www.franclycac.com

Ok, here goes nothing.

Worry not - this is a discussion not a flame contest.

I think 25,000 imports is WAY overexaggerated. Maybe you know something that most of us don't, but I think imports account for a fraction of your stated numbers. I know there are

I know nothing except how to get the import numbers on any CITES critter from the feds, not a difficult piece of info to come by, although more complex now with the post 9/11 record/security issues. You'd be amazed how educational a call to the front door at USFW can be.

That is an accurate number - to give you some perspective ball pythons are between 950K and a million critters (as pets) and another 2.5 million as leather.

Most were plagued with "sudden death syndrome" at around 2 years in captivity.

now maybe you know something I don't.
Tell me more about this - is it a true syndrome in terms of the way a veterinarian would use the word or a rumor that became a syndrome? Are you saying you have had a proper necropsy done on every dead cirtter and the result was no determination every time? (that'd be awfully weird).

Sudden death is a REAL concern with imports. I could list many instances from REAL, EXPERIENCED keepers and BREEDERS.

Loss - sure - but am not sure what is meant by SDS. I've lost literally thousands of cirtters (in the last 20+ years) and almost never do you get a no result necropsy, at a minimum you get method if not underlying issue.

I think much fo this si that if the person didn't see obvious cause and they didn't do a necropsy = SDS?

Parasites can come from feeding live rodents as opposed to frozen.....or from being imported. Live rodents can harbor

again, Id' just repaet that there is no program of source and husbandry that leads to a parasite free world with GTP's. Failure ot do fecals regularly - especially becasue of source and feeding f/t - is stupid IMHO.

Or just buy CBB!

Couldnt' agree with this more - but you have to acknowledge the reality that 10 people want to buy a GTP for every one that is produced in captivity.

All the best,

Ross
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Spruce Nubble Farm, Inc. - Green Tree Pythons, Carpet Pythons, Carpondros, Kinkajous, Horses
http://www.SpruceNubbleFarm.com
69 Spruce Nubble Road
Strong, ME 04983
(207)-684-3539
eFax: (512)-853-3820

Ross, I agree and disagree with a lot of what you say. I'll talk to my vet this evening if he has a minute. I just wonder how many of those 25,000 chondros perish each year.

"Couldnt' agree with this more - but you have to acknowledge the reality that 10 people want to buy a GTP for every one that is produced in captivity"

Might be true, but there are TONS of true CBB chondros available for $50-100 more than what most imports and FB animals sold for. I see these CBB animals sit for sale more months, to over a year and they don't get sold. IMHO, most of these chondros are far superior to any FB import. Maybe most people wanting their first chondro are just too lazy to search for the right one. We all know designer animals aren't for everyone, but there are plenty of nice "average" CBB available.

Peace,

Brandon Osborne

From what I've seen of the sudden death problems followed by necropsy, the main cause of death in most of them is some type of damage done by parasites early on. Most people worm their imports (if they know what they are doing anyway) and will get several fecals to show clean. Evidently whatever they had though seems to do the damage and affects them later. This doesn't include animals that end up with RI's and die later....just ones that ate two days ago and were found in the bottom of the cage later.
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4.5~Cornsnakes
1.3.1~Green tree python
1.0~ATB
Dogs, cats, horses....
www.franclycac.com

I just wonder how many of those 25,000 chondros perish each year.

I'd guess the majority in good years and the vast majority in bad years. No one would describe GTP's as "hardy/robust".

I think that is interesting what you have to say about good quality cbb animals that sit - not to be rude or anything but where? An animal that is not for sale now is not available - most of the "major" sites either conssitenly have no avail (UC) or are clearly moving lots (signal) or have really awful marketing with a two year old website that says to call (OS).

I think that if anyone is having trouble selling qulaity cbb chondros that are priced correctly they are doing other things very wrong.

As alwasy - fun to kick the ball around.

Meg - thanks for the further info on what you mean by sudden death - parasite problems that get serious can't be said to be truly clear until much later due to the organ damage issues, tis true. It is a rare herper that does it but it is possible to test for things like kidney function, etc.

R.
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Spruce Nubble Farm, Inc. - Green Tree Pythons, Carpet Pythons, Carpondros, Kinkajous, Horses
http://www.SpruceNubbleFarm.com
69 Spruce Nubble Road
Strong, ME 04983
(207)-684-3539
eFax: (512)-853-3820

Even if you did test...what are you going to do about it? If you purchased a f/b animal from some vendor at a show, take it home and find out that is has compromised kidneys, you're pretty much screwed. Kind of a caveat emptor and all those other witty latin sayings....

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4.5~Cornsnakes
1.3.1~Green tree python
1.0~ATB
Dogs, cats, horses....
www.franclycac.com

and that is why i will not buy from a show again, bc it happened to me, id rather just deal with all you guys/gals tha i can trust!!!