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This is a copy of an e-mail I sent today from a guy I bought a female ball from:

I received the snake today and she's in good condition. There's one problem though. She weight 1728g. When I e-mailed you on 4/28 you told me as of the prior Monday she was 2378g and that after she layed her clutch she was 1850g (4/10). I don't see her loosing 650g in that amount of time considering she should only be feeding on rats between 175g-225g for her size. I especially don't see her loosing this much weight if she was 1850g after laying and has eaten "6 plus" times since then. I definitely don't see her normally being a 3000g snake considering she's 1400g less than that now and isn't shinny or anything. I have a female ball that's 56", her normal weight is about 2500g. This snake is 53" I don't see her being 3" shorter and weighing 600g more... I have a local that I usually by my breeder females from and I pay $200 for females that are 2000-2500g. Including shipping I just paid about $300 for one that's now 1728. I could see her maybe being 2300 or so, but not 3000 . I would not have bought her if I knew the was this much less than what I expected. I expected to at least get a 2300g. I'm happy with the snake, just not her weight... I'm not going try to slander your name or anything, just concerned about the weight differences. Please e-mail me back.
thanks,
Matt

Here's a copy of the e-mail I recieved from him on 4/28:
She layed 4/10 she is 2378gram as of Monday and has eaten 6 plus time since laying. She was 1850 grams after laying. She normally weights 3000 easy

Thanks in advace everyone. I won't be posting this persons name as this isn't an attemt to hurt their reputation just to get some opinions. The snake in the pic isn't the one I got today.

........opinions.........?...what is it you actually want to know?

did you get ripped off?

is the snake smaller than told to you?

did you pay too much?

.....we don't know....you paid what you paid..$300.......the snake doesn't weigh 3000 grams nor 2400........people lie.....people make mistakes......scales are off.......scales aren't used....people just guess.........heck....I don't own a scale..........

........you bought a snake AFTER it laid......it doesn't matter......it has a year till it does you any good now........

how many eggs did it lay???

is it wild or born in America?.....

and people lie about that stuff too........CH or LTC are wild balls..........wild balls suck..........

good luck.........have fun........

I raise my own from babies too 95% of the time......and the wild males I have actually suck too.........LOL
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I was asking for people's opinion on the weight differences (if they thought it sounded right). I was told that the snake weighed 1850 on 4/10 (after laying) and 2378 on 4/23 but she was 1728 when I got her today 5/5. He said she layed 10 eggs and is CBB in 03'.

Here's a response I made in the other forum that might help understanding the delema:

I got a difference of 650g by subtracting the weight she was when I recieved her from the weight that I was told she weighed. Where'd you get 400g from. He said she was 1850g after laying but was 1730g when I got her, this was supposedly to have eaten 6 med rats after laying less then a month ago on 4/10. What I dont see is how a 1850g snake can eat 6 med rats between 4/10 and 5/1 and weigh 1730g by 5/5. What I was comparing was the normal weight of a 4.5' snake being about 2500g. It's impossible for a snake to be 2-3x bigger like you said. That'd be like having a 4.5' ball that's 9000g (20lbs).

Did you get any pictures of the snake back when the weights where discussed before the sale? I'm thinking either your or the seller's scale doesn't work or this isn't the same snake that was discussed before.

When they lay they lose about 1/3 of their weight and have very little fat left to loose. Maybe if the rats where hoppers and didn't even cover maintenance needs but even then I don't see much chance to loose 6.5% more of her weight a month after laying and of course that totally contradicts the 2,378 weight report on Monday. Maybe if she ate a huge rat right before that weight and then regurgitated it ...

Also, by the 1/3 rule her pre lay weight should have been about 2,775 so a snake that weighed 1,850 after laying would be a moderately big framed girl and would be very skinny at 1,728 but well on her way to post lay recovery at 2,378 after 6 big meals. I’d confirm you got the right snake. Have you checked the gender? Maybe there was a shipping mix-up. Hopefully pictures can be exchanged and compared to see if that happened.

I do agree with most of what you said until you said that wild couth Balls suck . Well maybe for someone without enough Experience to get them to thrive they might !! , But for those of us that can deal with them they are no problem and offer fresh bloodlines that haven’t seen years of selective breeding !.Thanks David of DS Reptile Rescue , Removal & Rehabilitation

I have experience........
I have time
I have the different rodents
I had wild balls...
they all sucked

I have wild balls that were brought in yearssss ago that are 5 pounds and are cool.....lay.and are good..but they had 10 to 15 years plussss to get used to the USA...

...wild balls suck...
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I am wondering maybe depends where the balls are coming from when it comes to climating them to captivity , this might be a small experiment that some one could take up.

I actually kind of agree with J. I would like to know of anyone that has gotten an adult WC female in that was eating well and up to weight, and has gotten them to breed that year or the next. It normally takes a very long time for them to get use to the new enviorment. J has tons of experience in this trade he has been in it for ever and he knows what he is doing.

I have wilds ---they do eat, they do well but i would much rather own and would sugest to others to buy CH babies and grow them up if you want diverse bloodlines. An adult WC female can take up to 3 years or so to get settled in and actually lay a fertile clutch when breed in captivity, where as a CH female can be up to size in 3 years or under and will cause much less problems, with feeding, parasites and better clutches.

I am not saying that WC females do not breed and lay in captivity, i am just saying it takes time.

Kim

Unless you know some of the real old school tricks that I learned from old Herpetologist like John Werlar and some others , I have had very little difficulty in getting wild couth Balls or others to eat . And I would shear them but the last time I did they were not kept confudintchuel and were being posted all over , but if you will contact me and agree to my terms I will tell you . Thanks David of DS Reptile Rescue

Sorry i didnt mean feeding, i have been in this trade long enough and owned balls for --- well ever, i know how to get a wild to eat with little to no difficulty and i know how to get weight on them and get them settled in, my question was what is the soonest anyone has had a wild female come in and then breed in their possesion and then lay a fertile clutch afterwards. It can take years to get females to breed and lay in captivity when they were taken from the wild. Feeding is not an issue breeding and laying fertile eggs is a different story. I was saying i feel it is easier to buy a CH if you are looking for new blood and raise that animal for 2 years and then breed that animal. In the long run it can take up to 2 years for a wild female to breed in captivity and with CH you do not have to worry about all of the short term problems some people run into, but with both animals you get the same results, in close to the same amount of time.

Kim

Well I got a Wild Female at the beginning of July 04 and started cooling here in Nov. 04 and bred her in March 05to a wild male that I got in 03, and she laid 8 viable eggs and 4 slugs and all 8 hatched and were sold and they were 5,3,0 sex thanks David of DS Reptile Rescue

I agree I dont think there is any quick way in this hooby/buisnes to make a profit, this is why I am raising my own baby fem balls , I think that sometimes people want to make things happen quick, this is I must say and belive a labor of love, good luck.

Well if you are doing this , (I E ) raising Balls or any other snake to make a living you are in the wrong business . I do this because it is what I love and after 36 years I have seen the fads and get rich sceems come and go and all the so called breeders to , so do it because you LOVE IT !!!! Thanks David of DS Reptile Rescue

Tell the seller you did not receive what you paid for and want to return her for a refund. 6 plus meals in less than three weeks - she was probably full of food when she was lasted weighed who knows - maybe she never weighed that much, maybe you got the wrong snake - maybe it's just a flat out scam - whatever. Chalk it up to a live and learn situation - next time get pictures for reference ahead of time - those too good to be true deals usual are.

Good luck!
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Tosha
JET Pythons

I'd make darn sure that its a girl.

If it is a female - for sure, at least you can breed her next year?

Dont do business with the person again if it sits that bad with you.

Alot of people have been stuck alot worse than what your describing....

You have to come to grips with the fact that there are alot of lousey people that love money alot more than their word.

You cant put a price on the comfort factor.

If you dont feel like you can send your money off and not even have to check on things, just wait for the snake to arrive...then you are dealing with the wrong person.

I complain alot about money and I want to pay as little as possible for my snakes, but even I realize that the good business people, not just the ones with the well known / BIG names, are worth dealing with and maybe its worth (god help me) paying more for snakes from these honest people than the money grabbers.

I like to follow people on the forum and I like to think I can get a feel for what kind of person they are, I believe, by their posts.

I might now always agree with them or their posts, but people like Rick @ BallBout., Kyle @ RoyalVar.,JYOHE, The Barkers, JMartin, Misty Sprouse, Got Mice guys, Markus Jayne, Bailey&bail...the list goes on..

I dont mind spending a little more from people who I know value their good names far more than a few quick schillings.

Yes, it's a female.

I agree with you on that one only buy from the people who have good reps word of wouth is your best alia in this hobby/buisness.

few posts down?
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

yes, I didn't mean to post it twice...

Ok, I wasn't sure if you were asking something else or "probing" for more info.

Unfortunately, there are quite a few people out there that feed a snake a couple of meals and then immediately weigh them. This, IMHO is misleading. I normally weigh mine and if they had a recent meal (within 2 weeks) or had not defecate since the last meal, I subtract the weight by at least the size of the last meal they ate. If the snake you got just laid eggs and is packing on the food, don't fret too much. I have females that drop over 1000 grams after laying eggs and put that back on in less than 6 months. I find that after laying eggs, females can be voracious feeders.

But I would let the seller know you are not pleased. If they do not satisfactorily tend to your needs, you might want to make a post at the "unmentionable" site just so others won't have the same issue and to let the seller know, he/she needs to do a better job in the future.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles