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Crossed Fingers

Eimon May 05, 2007 08:43 PM

Ok, here's the deal. These two were not brumated at all the past year. They've been slower growers, and I've been content to just let them set their own pace, and planned on next year. However, I noticed the female seemed to be ovulating, so why not try it anyway. The male obviously is happy to accommodate! What are other's experiences with non or lightly brumated mexicana as far as viability? I've had quite a few colubrids over the years produce quite successfully with hardly any "real" brumation, including alterna, so we'll see what happens. I'll be stoked if I get a few of these this year.


Replies (21)

antr1 May 05, 2007 11:12 PM

Those are very nice, I love the wide red saddles.

MichelleRogers May 06, 2007 12:13 AM

I have had sucess with snakes that were not brumanated properly, The first year i produced thayeri I actually just put them in a darker area than what they were used to and had really good results, only 1 egg was infertile out of 12 or 13 I can't remeber right off hand without looking back through records.
I wish you luck and you should get some nice babies from that pair they are beautiful.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

mexicanamak May 06, 2007 06:59 AM

I do love those mex mex. That's a mighty nice pair and they definitely seem to know what they are doing. A number of people have had good luck breeding without a winter cool down.

You've probably heard about him… there is a pioneer in the industry that has clearly shown that with many species of kingsnakes, a brumation cycle isn't required at all and has several decades of experience to stand behind the claim. What seems to make the difference is more extreme temperature gradients and environmental conditions for the snakes to choose from, and letting them decide what to do and when to do it. He would provide his snakes huge enclosures that offer many more temperature choices than most of us would have space for, he would keep one pair in a space that many of us keep 50 snakes in. Years back, he devised this arrangement he called Retes boards (some call it a Retes Stack or Retes Ladder)... essentially a tall stack of boards that mimics a tin and wood pile with heat applied at the top as the sun might do. He devised this to test temp selection and digestion, and it worked extremely well. When they were ready to feed, his snakes would come up, feed, then gradually work their way down to the much cooler lower levels of the stack to rest until they were ready to feed again. This is how he regulated feeding and temps... he let the snakes decide what to do and when it was time to do it. When they came up… he fed. Letting them choose from more extreme temps and following their schedule, not his, he had them cycling and breeding on their own schedule, year-round as I understand it, with good fertility.

The problem most of us have is that we keep snakes in plastic tubs with maybe a 15 degree temp gradient at best, and they have nowhere to go to find the temps they need to use to do things right. We need tall vertical enclosures with many levels, and heat on the top, and not small horizontal ones that are both not warm enough or cool enough with lots of choices in between.

Lucky for us though... our animals are adaptable enough to be able to reproduce extremely well living in these small plastic tubs, and on schedules that work for both us and the snakes. So we are able to keep really cool collections and not just a couple pair!
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Mike

RussBates May 06, 2007 11:20 AM

Do you know where one can find a picture of the REtes Boards/Ladder? I'd be interested in studying that and perhaps even trying it on some snakes.

Russ

mexicanamak May 06, 2007 12:22 PM

I'll send you a few pics and a link.
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Mike

MichelleRogers May 06, 2007 12:56 PM

If you don't mind forward me the info, it sounds interesting.
thanks,
-----
Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

mexicanamak May 06, 2007 02:31 PM

Hey Michelle,

Frank's Goanna Ranch site is down, but the link I sent you explains it well enough.


-----
Mike

Beaker30 May 06, 2007 01:45 PM

Mike,

Why dont you just post the pics and/or links here? Im sure its info we're all curious about.
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3.4 Variable Kings
1.4 Kunasir Island Rats
1.1 Albino Japanese Rats
1.1 Everglades Rats
0.1 White Oak Gray Rat
0.1 Speckled King
0.1 Tarahumara Mtn King
0.1 Amelanistic Corn

mexicanamak May 06, 2007 02:39 PM

The pics aren't mine and I don't have permission to post... sorry.

The Goanna Ranch site isn't up, but you can go here to get a good idea of what it's all about:

Retes Stack
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Mike

CSRAJim May 07, 2007 01:48 PM

Mike,

Thank you very much for the "link"...that explains it very well.

How is your incubator project going? Just wondering...

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

mexicanamak May 07, 2007 05:45 PM

Hey Jim,

You're welcome for the link.

The incubator is cool, glad I built it. I almost wish I'd bought a bigger cooler but this one will hold plenty to keep me busy for a while.

Talk with ya later...
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Mike

CSRAJim May 07, 2007 06:39 PM

Mike,

Thanks...

I hope you have tremendous success with your "techno-cooler" for Thayeri's...I still have a ways to go before I build one but, I'll be very interested in your notes as to how it performs for you...

Later,
Jim.

PS: I printed out the information and photos you sent me for a future "techno-project" of my own...
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CSRAJim

mexicanamak May 07, 2007 08:12 PM

...and I'll have the links to a couple of the hard to find bits and pieces if you ever need them.


-----
Mike

CSRAJim May 08, 2007 08:38 AM

Mike,

Collecting web-stuff comes in handy...Ha! Ha!

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

MichelleRogers May 06, 2007 01:30 PM

those are really beautiful, who produced them?
-----
Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Tony D May 07, 2007 01:33 PM

Those are some nice Mex Mex. I had a nice dark pair like that once and have often kicked myself for moving them.

KenCasstevens May 07, 2007 01:48 PM

That has got to be one of the nicest pair of mex mex I have ever seen. Great job! Good luck with the eggs.
Ken

Eimon May 07, 2007 03:51 PM

They should look familiar........those were yours! I'm still thankful you had a "weak" moment. And for Michelle, they originated from Rick Blairs dark (i.e. "black" stock, which he obtained from another person when see got out of snakes. My main concern is the males viability with no real cooling, but I figured if she was going to produce eggs anyway, it can't hurt to try and see what happens.

Tony D May 08, 2007 05:56 AM

I'm bad enough with real names but keeping screen names aligned with the real one is about impossible. They sure are nice. Still don't know what I'd else I'd have gotten rid of to keep them but yes that was a weak moment! Glad to see they are still in good hands.

Morgan_So_Cal May 07, 2007 03:10 PM

The females might be ready with little effort. I thought it was the male's sperm count/viability that was affected mostly by brumation period???
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1 Eastern Blue Tongue Skink
2 Tarahumara Mountain Kingsnakes - Knoblochi
1 Thayer's Kingsnake - Thayeri
2 Golden Greek Tortoises
1 Pyxie Frog - 14 years old

shannon brown May 07, 2007 11:51 PM

I couldn't see so well cause my head fell apart when I saw your post sir.
Thank you sir,
Sal

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