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Picked up this 06 meahllmorum?, advertised as a Western Corn. This is the same store that wisema2297 picked up his adult male meahllmorum last year. Terry or Toby, what's your opinions? The ventral area has pattern, but not very bold. More faded like. The saddles also have the split line in them. Thanks in advance. Steve

Steve, let's see the belly! I think it is very light but could definitely be a meahl worm, I don't like the greenish hue I see, maybe my moniter? Green leans me toward emoryi, some of the saddles look ok, the line in them looks ok, but I can't put my finger on it . Something tells me intergrade zone??? How about the underside of the tail? double stripe after vent? This could go either way, I'll wait for the big boys to chime in. Here's a few of mine.
Todd Hughes

Todd, it's either your moniter or my camera. This one has no greens, or greenish hues in him. I put some more pics below so maybe that my shed some more light on if he's 100 percent meahllmorum.
Steve

>>Picked up this 06 meahllmorum?, advertised as a Western Corn. This is the same store that wisema2297 picked up his adult male meahllmorum last year. Terry or Toby, what's your opinions? The ventral area has pattern, but not very bold. More faded like. The saddles also have the split line in them. Thanks in advance. Steve
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Steve, it looks like meahllmorum to me, but it could be an intergrade, as Todd says. I would suspect a captive contrived intergrade rather than a snake from an intergrade zone, however. First, the head and eye shape look very meahllmorum, to me. I have seen clean looking meahllmorum, like that one, and meahllmorum can also be greenish. It is really hard to say, because meahllmorum is so variable, even within small localities. Ventrally, they can be almost clean to heavily marked. According to Dixon and Werler (2005), emoryi have between 57 - 81, avg 67 total dorsal blotches (including tail) while meahllmorum have between 39 - 67, avg 55 dorsal blotches. Here are a few old pics, for comparison. First pic is a baby from 2005. Second is a 2004 female, and third is a 'greenish' 2004 male. These are all cb from nueces County, TX stock.

-Toby

A few more pics for comparison... All Nueces County animals.

-Toby

A few more for comparison... These two were captured within two miles of each other. Notice the difference in color and pattern.

-Toby

Thanks Toby for the pics. From what I can tell, and compared to my pure emoryi in my collection, this guy looks to me to be all meahllmorum, or at the very least, has very heavy meahllmorum influence. He's an o6, and is larger then all of my 06 emoryi. Don't know how much his size plays into it, but since meahllmorum tend to be larger, I did want to make note that this one is a bit larger then my other 06's.
Steve

Toby is right, they can vary a lot even from the same board! That striper I caught is dark with a heavy bold black outline around the blotches, but the smaller female caught at the other end of the board is a milk chocolate light snake with saddle type blotches and thin black outlines. I guess when it comes right down to it, that is one of their endearing qualities, their variableness! Hey Toby, when ya gonna come see Spot? He will be at the meeting tomorrow night, he just shed.
Todd Hughes

Hey Toby, when ya gonna come see Spot? He will be at the meeting tomorrow night, he just shed.
>> Todd Hughes

Man, I can't wait to see Spot! I just got the notice for the meeting, and I wish it could be next week. Not sure if I'll be able to make it, but I'm sure you'll put on a great presentation.

-Toby Brock

I tooks some various ventral shots. One thing I noticed when I placed this guy to my other emoryi, there's no doubt his saddles are larger, and less in number, compared to my emoryi. Also wanted to add that the ventral area is void of any pattern from under the chin, to exted about an inch or two, before the ventral pattern starts. And I know Todd said he saw green, but It must be my camera. There is no green, or greenish hues in his saddles. Light Brown.
I will also do a saddle count later on. Is the proper way to count saddles from the neck, to the anal plate? Or do you count all the way to the tip of the tail? Thanks in advance. Steve

I will go with light colored meahlly if you will! Nice snake, where's he from?
Todd Hughes

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Steve, that's too low for emoryi, and right within meahllmorum specs.

-Toby

Whether light brown, dark brown, gray or with a greenish tinge - doesn't matter. Meahllmorum can have any and all of these colors. The total view of the snake says meahllmorum, to me. The clean anterior ventral with patchy, clustered mid to posterior checking is very common in meahllmorum. For counting dorsal blotches, it depends on who you're reading. In the Dixon and Werler field guide that I got those counts from, they used total blotch count from neck to the tip of the tail. Yes, meahllmorum are usually big at hatching, but of course this can be variable also. Larger saddles with wider spaces is one of the most telling traits. Also, your snake's eyes, head shape and pattern look very scrub rat, imo. It could still be an intergrade, either natural (wc from an intergrade area) or cb from an emoryi x meahllmorum pairing. Here are a couple ventral shots. The DOR is from Kleberg County and the second pic is a large Nueces County female.

-Toby

Steve, what town did you pick it up in, and, do you know how old, or how big it is?

It just doesn't look as much like the meahllmorum from the coast that I'd like to see. Maybe it's from a little further north, like in the intergrade zone with e. emoryi. Its adult size and number of eggs it produces will help i.d. it. The small number of dorsal blotches suggests either meahllmorum or slowinskii influence. The split blotches can show up in all subspecies, I believe.

TC

>>Picked up this 06 meahllmorum?, advertised as a Western Corn. This is the same store that wisema2297 picked up his adult male meahllmorum last year. Terry or Toby, what's your opinions? The ventral area has pattern, but not very bold. More faded like. The saddles also have the split line in them. Thanks in advance. Steve
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he came from a Pet Store in Richmond, Va. This is the same exact store that Ralph, aka (Wisema2297) picked up his large male meahllmorum last year. That pet shop advertised his animal as an Anery Corn. Anyway, this snake I just purchased, were brought in to that store by an individual around November 06. So these are 06 hatch. The petstore had these listed as Western Corns. As far as size, this particular snake is around 18-20 inchs in size. I double checked the saddle count. 50-51 saddles is the count. Ventral area under the chin is pure white with no pattern. Pattern starts about two inchs down from the neck region, as you can see in the above photos. Thanks for your imput. Steve

>>Steve, what town did you pick it up in, and, do you know how old, or how big it is?
It just doesn't look as much like the meahllmorum from the coast that I'd like to see. Maybe it's from a little further north, like in the intergrade zone with e. emoryi. Its adult size and number of eggs it produces will help i.d. it. The small number of dorsal blotches suggests either meahllmorum or slowinskii influence. The split blotches can show up in all subspecies, I believe.

Steve, with a snake that small it's hard to tell from the head and body shape, what subspecies. Can you get the blotch count from behind the head to the vent? If 30-35, I would guess meahllmorum. The ventrum does suggest meahllmorum, as stated by some other posters. You may never know for sure though. Did you say male or female, or don't you know, yet? Good luck with it.

Terry

>>he came from a Pet Store in Richmond, Va. This is the same exact store that Ralph, aka (Wisema2297) picked up his large male meahllmorum last year. That pet shop advertised his animal as an Anery Corn. Anyway, this snake I just purchased, were brought in to that store by an individual around November 06. So these are 06 hatch. The petstore had these listed as Western Corns. As far as size, this particular snake is around 18-20 inchs in size. I double checked the saddle count. 50-51 saddles is the count. Ventral area under the chin is pure white with no pattern. Pattern starts about two inchs down from the neck region, as you can see in the above photos. Thanks for your imput. Steve

Terry, I just did a blotch count (several times) from behind the head to the vent, and I come up with a count 34. Add 17 after the vent, for a grand total of 51. I have not sexed it. Just from a visual, It looks to be a male, but I'll probe when I get a chance.
Also wanted to add that there was a second one of these ratsnakes at that petstore, and they both came from the same person, so I'm assuming they are siblings. The other animal's blotchs were more of a darker brown color then the one I have. Also the blotchs on the other one didn't seem to have the lines going through them like you see on mine. Or the other one could have had the lines, did, but was less noticible then mine. That may mean something, or it may mean nothing. I'm guessing that within a given clutch there can be some variation?
Steve

Steve, with a snake that small it's hard to tell from the head and body shape, what subspecies. Can you get the blotch count from behind the head to the vent? If 30-35, I would guess meahllmorum. The ventrum does suggest meahllmorum, as stated by some other posters. You may never know for sure though. Did you say male or female, or don't you know, yet? Good luck with it.

Thanks for the additional info, Steve. I guess I was thinking it was from a wild caught female at first, not sure why, but if it's from a captive hatched clutch, the breeder could have mixed two different strains. It looks like it has some meahllmorum characteristics, but it might not be pure meahllmorum. It would be hard for anyone to tell, even if they had it in hand. After keeping it for awhile it might be easier to tell. Oftentimes, the breeders themselves don't know the origins of their snakes, so the offspring will only be a guess. It does look like emoryi though, so whether it's e. meahllmorum, or has influence from e. emoryi, it's still probably pure emoryi. Good luck with it. I'd like to see another photo in about a year to see how it looks then, if you still have it.

PS: Blotch count sounds like it could be meahllmorum. There can be lots of variation in the same clutch too.

TC

>>Terry, I just did a blotch count (several times) from behind the head to the vent, and I come up with a count 34. Add 17 after the vent, for a grand total of 51. I have not sexed it. Just from a visual, It looks to be a male, but I'll probe when I get a chance.
>>Also wanted to add that there was a second one of these ratsnakes at that petstore, and they both came from the same person, so I'm assuming they are siblings. The other animal's blotchs were more of a darker brown color then the one I have. Also the blotchs on the other one didn't seem to have the lines going through them like you see on mine. Or the other one could have had the lines, did, but was less noticible then mine. That may mean something, or it may mean nothing. I'm guessing that within a given clutch there can be some variation?
>>Steve