Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found this paper posted on line that suggests that by incubating Black Rat Snake eggs at higher temperatures (30 C) you produce larger, stronger, and less aggressive hatchlings with fewer scale anomalies.

Worth a read.

"Phenotypic consequences of nest-site selection in
black rat snakes (Elaphe obsoleta)" by Gabriel Blouin-Demers, Patrick J. Weatherhead, and Jeffrey R. Row
Can. J. Zool. 82: 449–456 (2004)

Phenotypic consequences of nest-site selection

>>I found this paper posted on line that suggests that by incubating Black Rat Snake eggs at higher temperatures (30 C) you produce larger, stronger, and less aggressive hatchlings with fewer scale anomalies.
>>

My opinion... the higher the incubation the shorter the amount of time till the snake hatches and the less time the snake has use up the yolk in the egg before hatching meaning you have a smaller not larger snake. Speeding up the development process would also likely lead to more possible deformities than it would avoid them. As for aggression, I find it to be totally irrelevant to the incubation process. Every snake has its own unique behaviors.
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PHWyvern

....but they got the data

Those are good sized sample spaces, and the statistics are sound. Of course a theory cannot be accepted until a study can be verified by repeating the results, but good data is good data. Until I read differently, I think I'll try incubating my corn eggs closer to 84 rather than the 80 I have it set at now.
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Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

You didn't read the paper. Try read the paper first, and look at the data and then tell us what you think. Their data contradicts your beliefs. The data is what the data is. You can't argue about the data, only the methods and conclusions. These scientists did the research, it was peer reviewed, and the paper was published.

>>You didn't read the paper. Try read the paper first, and look at the data and then tell us what you think. Their data contradicts your beliefs. The data is what the data is.

Actually the data are what the data are.

It would be correct to say the data be what the data be, be dat as it may!
Todd Hughes

Yeah!,...that was a VERY involved and controlled study!, and they did get those particular results from those particular group of snakes.

It was certainly interesting, and very involved, but I don't think that those results are "etched in granite" for all snake species,...nor was it meant to be, those results were truly the results that were found, so as others have mentioned, it doesn't necessarily mean those results even apply to all localities, just the animals that participated in the testing data.

One thing is for sure!, all it takes is one of many hundreds of thousands of things to not be totally consistant, and all results will/can be affected(no matter how minute),nevertheless, many parts of the testing were very interesting to see how they were even able to conclude what they did.

I don't think humans will EVER be able to FULLY understand exactly what goes on about many things in nature, no matter how precise they think they are in doing it!, that's certainly not to say they DIDN'T get some absolute "rock-solid" results with a percentage of their testing,.....but as we all know, nature is sometimes FAR!!too complicated to be fully understood,...and certainly not just in regards to snakes.

Anyway,..I'm done rambling!LOL

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Up until now, I had read that you should incubate E.o. obsoleta at 83. I also read posts that if the eggs were kept too warm, that the snakes would have birth defects. This data suggests that some of our common wisdom might not yeld the best results. I have some Black Rat eggs incubating now that I bumped the temp up on a degree or two. I didn't take them all the way up to 30 C but I did go to 29 C.

Most likely this will work for all obsoleta, but I would be careful with Corns, Emoryi, Bairds, and Fox Snakes since they are not as closely related.

I take your point, just because it works for Black Rats doesn't mean it will work well for all Rats much less snakes in general.

Just goes to show that you have to whatch out for what is dogma and what is good practice.
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Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

I just thought of a cool way you could sort of "test the water"
with their theory without risking your WHOLE clutch!

Why don't you just do half the clutch at 29c(84.2F) and see what happens?......I don't know if I'd do a total "180" on what has worked good for me in the past!,....know what I mean?
then you could see the difference(if any) the temp change did on half the hatchlings?

To me, 84 and above might be getting on the warm side of my liking,......I still think personally slightly cooler is safer, but "normal" Black Rats certainly wouldn't be like risking a "killer" clutch of....say, Mandarins, or "extreme" hypo Hodurans!..........that might give you some useful results to "kick around"!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I thought this might be the case,..unless you had a few loose ones. ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Maybe I'll spend my first gecko income this year on a second incubator so I could find out instead of toward a new rack like I planned.. If all goes well this season, I'd need a second egg cooker next year anyway.
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Black Rat Snake 0.1 (Patty)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 2.2 (Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 3.6 (Leo, Spaz, Spazzooka, Leiah, Han, Padme, Lonestar, Vespa, and Spot)
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)
Central American Boa 1.0 (Steve)
Longnosed Snake 1.0 (Serano)
Bearded Dragons 2.0 (Irwin and Obie)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I started a few years ago incubating at 82 to 83 degrees and have slowly dropped to incubating now in the upper 70's. I have found babies to be larger, more robust and have less problems in general after incubating at the lower temps. Randy W.

I should have included in my above post that I have not hatched black rats but have had the above results with several other rat snake species. RW