Reptile & Amphibian Forums

who imports dart frogs, especially egg feeders. it seems like w.c. frogs can't even be found anywhere. Do the importers have websites. i was interested in comparing the prices, i figure the difference would be huge. and i don't want to by any histrionicus or anything so please don't lecture me, i am just curious. also how does everyne feel about buying w.c., do you think it's right.

sorry for the rambling post
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Nate
1.1 alanis tincs
0.0.2 Azureus (soon)
0.0.2 imitators very very soon

Importing is what is killing the "Exotic" pet hobby importing gives us a bad wrap. Animal rights agencys still think we all steal our animals from the wild. The more importing the more we will piss off conservationists.

on the other hand, if they werent imported how would they have ever reached the US or europe?
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Click Here to see my vivarium and steps on how to make a basic vivarium UPDATED 7.18.03 Now complete! All that is needed are some New River Tincs!

kungfu28181: My god. You are insane. -Mon Jun 30 21:41:05

Yes.. but at least we are not shrinking wild populations.
Dendrobates auratus was brought here to have thier behavior and breeding habits studied and then somehow trickled into the pet market.

i feel that w.c. frogs are important ,but not imported species that are already common in the trade . W.c. forgs broing new blood lines to the hobby also, which in the future will be very important to the hobby, but also to the survival of the frogs. some day many frogs may only be left in large quantitys in captivity.
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Nate
1.1 alanis tincs
0.0.2 Azureus (soon)
0.0.2 imitators very very soon

"some day many frogs may only be left in large quantitys in captivity."

Reminds me of the goliath bird eater tarantula and the poeclitheria genus of tarantulas. Peta had its members write letters to the Tarantula enthusiasts and breeders. My letter called me a "monster" and a "cruel slaver". Glad to see some people still see it that way.

The only thing I have a problem with is that people sometimes buy these types of animals to show off. Thus the animal dies and it did not breed this it was useless or even worse your supporting a crime by buying a smuggled animal.

I've always wondered this, and call me crazy if you like.
If ever a common dart frog's population was destroyed in the wild, such as auratus or azureus.. do you think that all of the breeders could get together and actually try to reintroduce the population back into the wild through breeding? I know it seems far-fetched, but hey u never know! auratus were introduced into hawaii... why not reintroduce frogs back into the wild if we get desperate? Think about it-- everyone primarily focuses on a certain species.. raise them to be sub-adults or adults, and then release them in mass quantity! lol i think about stupid stuff like this, but hey, anything can happen!

I wouldn't think you would be able to release them if you raised them first because if you did this with any other animal they would be able to find food. I think it might work with some of them if you released the tadpoles or eggs but I wonder how many would survive. Oh well like I said I'm still new to this and maybe I'm wrong but I know with most animals this doesn't work after they have been raised in captivity.

np

My frogs are MAJOR hunters. If I skip a day in feeding them, they hunt down every lose insect in the tank. I bet they could fend for themselves in the wild.

I believe that w.c. frogs are important for reasons that a previous poster has said- new blood lines; however, species that are less common in the trade should not be imported for private hobbyists- maybe zoos and such. Reintroducing frogs to an area that they previously inhabited is a bad idea. First, one may be introducing some type of pathogen that previously was not there. Second, you would have to feed them their natural diet in captivity before release- to get the toxins. Case in point, the Baltimore Aquarium tried introducing a small population of D. auratus's into the rainforest floor; however, because they were not fed their natural diet, avian predators picked them off like expensive candy. The idea was canned. In theory reintroductions have worked in the past and can do so in the future- there are just a lot of ethical questions that need to be addressed.

Justin

D. pumilio (bastimentos, "blue jeans"
D. leucomelas
D. azureus
D. tinctorius (yellowback, citro, giant orange, lorenzo, etc...)
D. auratus
D. ventrimaculatus
P. bicolor
P. aurotaenia
E. tricolor

Wow that's amazing-- you'd think that they would be left alone because of their colors-- the predators are used to seein the frogs around, and if they've experienced their poison before, they wouldn't go after them. So that brings up the question. Do you think that the predators can sense the poison? like smell it? And how long do u think it'd take for a frog to get its poison back? Days? Weeks? years?? Thanks for the info- this is very intriguing.

This has actually already been done with D. azureus... it was part of the agreement that allowed the National Aquarium in Baltimore to actually be able to get the animals to begin with.

The problem comes from why the animals died out to begin with.

Take the case of the peurto rican crested toad. The baltimore zoo has 16 of them on display that if they really wanted to they could breed and reintroduce them into the wild again.... but their last stronghold was paved over a couple years ago. There is no place to release them to...

Atelopus varius in Costa Rica has pretty much died out... so if there actually was some still in the hobby (which as far as I know there aren't in the US because I have been looking for them for years) and they were bred (we now know how) we could repopulate Atelopus varius in the wild.... but why did it die out to begin with? A fungus that is actually naturally occuring probibly whiped them out. That and Atelopus and some other species are mysteriously disapearing from their habitats even in areas hundreds of miles from human civilization. So we'd be putting them back to die for unknown reasons?

Then we have the health of the animals being reintroduced. I'm not saying all the animals are unhealthy... but you'd need 50 genetically healhty animals to form a population that would stay genetically healthy in the long run, and you can get 50 froglets from one pair of dart frogs over time... but they are genetically similar to each other and would not produce a healthy population theoretically. Most of the animals in the hobby are from populations that are smaller than that (say a handful) and bred from there (why new WC bloodlines would be very important) and are even line bred to not confuse different populations (meaning from only a few pairs from the same importation).

Thats not to meantion what bacteria and what not our frogs may be carrying... who knows what that could do to the rainforest environment.

Its not gonna happen anytime soon, especially with animals with no collection data (which almost all the frogs in the hobby are). If it does happen, its not going to be the hobbiest that does it either.

Touchy subject. I believe it's about as sensitive as discussing politics and religion with your future in-laws! Anyway, I believe that if you CAN buy captive-born, then buy captive-born. However, I think your intentions also should play a role in your decision. It's NOT a good idea to buy wild-caught if you're just looking to save a few bucks. WC's carry a parasite load that, if the animal becomes too stressed, can kill your frog. So if you are planning on buying a frog who's species has already been established in captive-breeding programs and are available, then don't bother buying WC's, go with the CB's.
If the species you desire is not very prevalent in the hobby, then I believe it would be OK to buy WC on 3 conditions----1. you have extensive experience with pdf's 2. the species is not endangered or protected and 3. you plan on breeding them. Buying WC's does condone collectors to desimate the species, and that is why buying imports should be done with the propagation on the species in mind. After all, we wouldn't even have this hobby if it weren't for importations.
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Randy
Lawrence, Kansas
1.1 Azureus
1.1 Cobalt
1.1 Fantasticus
2.2 Bastimentos Pumilio
2.5 Bri Bri Pumilio
0.0.3 Mysteriosus

np
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Nate
1.1 alanis tincs
0.0.2 Azureus (soon)
0.0.2 imitators very very soon

Hmm, interesting comments considering that you have a species that has never been legally exported/imported. I must say that I am quite skeptical of your claim of D. Mysteriosus. Very few people that have them will actually admit it.
Not saying that you are lying - just very skeptical.

Donn

Hi Don,
I don't blame you for being skeptical. Most people don't admit to it because most people are apprehensive about defending their cause. I, however, plan on a project aimed towards propogation, not exploitation or display. The specimens in my care were acquired as captive born F2's, not wc. Just because breeders don't list them on their websites doesn't mean they don't sell them!
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Randy
Lawrence, Kansas
1.1 Azureus
1.1 Cobalt
1.1 Fantasticus
2.2 Bastimentos Pumilio
2.5 Bri Bri Pumilio
0.0.3 Mysteriosus

Hey Randy,
ALL dendrobates species are listed in CITIES and therefore protected. I, personally, am torn on this issue. I got into these frogs as a way to help out with the lose of genetic diversity and species extinction. Many of the frogs have VERY limited ranges in the wild and their habitat is threatened. The Demonics for example live on one mountainside in Venezuela. There is a strip mine on that mountain!!!!! One accident and the wild population is gone. If someone isn't keeping them somewhere, the species is extinct. At the same time over collecting in the wild can push a species to extinction, but we must have that genetic diversity. It hard not to breed my beloved D fanasticus to a brother, sister or cousin because there are only three or four bloodlines in America. WC's, or maybe some imports from Europe, are the only answer.
20 years ago the California Condor was gone in the wild. Thanks to a few zoos and groups breeding them in captivity they now fly wild again in California and Arizona and hopefully soon here in Oregon. Call me a slavemaster or whatever, but I'll do all I can to pass these frogs on to future generations.

There are a few importers in florida i know of. The problem is imports are very closely regulated. We have reached quota from suriname for this year and as of right now cant really get any pumilios from panama area either. Secondly those few that do arrive are weak and stressed from sitting in fish and wildlife and shipping many die further reducing numbers. Best time if you wanna get imports is early spring. Good Luck.

Darryl
Dart-Frogs.com

I am unable to cite the source of state which country, because I don't remember, but I read this proposal recently. One of the South American countries is considering setting aside forests destined for logging and clearing, then regulating the collection of wild animals for the pet trade by the local population as an alternative means of a livlihood. Whether or not this would work in practice, I don't know. But it seems like an interesting idea worthy of consideration, since otherwise, the habitat and everything in it will be destroyed.
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Patty
Lost River, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
3 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
4 D. leukomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos

Very interesting article, using the poison dart frogs to save their forests. If you want to check it out here is the address.

www.tracyhicks.com/article.htm

tonysly