Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Bluerosy is right, this does need its own thread.

There will always be some random joe who doesn't know the correct terminology or just feels like making up their own names. Thats unavoidable. But the problem is that the people who do know what they are doing still don't have a good consensus on what to call things.

I think that quite a few of the bigger players in kingsnake breeding are regulars on this page. I think that if we all decided to make a comprehensive list and all committed to using those names that it could easily influence the rest of the herp community.

I know that I have a lot of ideas for cal kings, but I'm sure that all the other species could use some clarification as well.

Anyone else down?

The colubrid group and specifically kings is by far and away the worst affected by crappy naming. The most common species with the most morphs are the worst effected. I think that we just need some organization. You don't see ball python people, or corn snake people having these same problems like we do. They are much more organized and standardized.

There are SOOOO many naming issues with these guys its not even funny. But I'd like to start a comprehensive list.

Kerby brought up just a few of them in his post below...

How about those Davis "black bellies", there's nothing black belly about them LOL

And let's talk about the "Lavender" cal kings...no, on second thought let's not LOL

Or how about the Lavender Albinos or Albino Lavenders or Red-eye Albino

Or Blue-Eyed Blondes, almost all cal kings have a blueish eye

Or how about the "Snow" cal kings..do they mean High Whites or Blizzards?

Or how about the "Banana" cal king, which really has very little yellow...but the Albino Banana is almost ALL YELLOW

Of course there are probably...too many to count..."hypo" cal kings

So lets see some pics and some ideas.

This is a coastal banded phase. He is brown and yellow, and the bands get much wider at the base. He is 15 years old so he may be more faded then some. But I think that he is a text book example.

I think that anyone calling them chocolate kings, copper kings, or faded kings, should be ostrasized, made fun of, then killed for the confusion they cause.

Comments?

Lol, kidding.

My guess is those colorful names might have been intended to pique interest and help sales.

In any case, I like the trend you folks are starting - calling them what they are by their genetics or origins or habitat or locale or latin name or ..., but not by a made-up sales name.
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Mark

So, there are tons of different types and lines of hypo cal kings out there. Many of which we don't even know if they are compatible or different traits. Some are named after their locality origin, although most are not local specific anymore. Others are named after the people who found them and bred them. And still others have fancier trade names like the Blue Eyed Blonds.

Personally I think that there should be a numerical or alphabetical system of naming these different types. Like in corns with multiple types of anerythrism being called anery A, anery B etc.

I know that some letters will get deleted as certain lines will no doubt turn out to be the same trait, but it would still be a more organised aproach then just saying "hypo cal king" The way it is now, a person can't even go buy one and have any hope that it will be compatible with the strain that they have.

I'd really like to see pics or here about any and all other types/versions/lineages of hypos out there. Now we need to start breeding em all together and find out whats what.

Here are some pics of a male hypo from the line that Gerold Merker found and has produced. They are from sacramento county CA. The base color is light and has a purplish hue. The yellow is extremely bright and almost has a lime green hue which is very hard to capture on film.

A hatchling pic (taken by gerold) and two pics from today at not quite one year old. I expect he will continue to get much lighter with age.

here is another pic of the same male.

While most cal kings have greyish/blue eyes, it is much more pronounced light blue in many types of hypo. This is NOT unique to the blue eyed blonds or BEBs.

Definitely a nice animal!......you can see through the pigment, giving it a translucent look!.....and the "ice-blue" colored eyes also add to it's unique look!.....nice!!

No mistaking that for anything other than a nice example of a "true" hypo!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I agree we should make a serious effort but the problem is we need a few people who have taken the time, and I mean many years worth of time to attempt to spell out what things are and why they should be named accordingly.

The thing that bothers me is something I myself am guilty of. Sometimes things are re-named, and named what is seemingly appropriate. The best example is Brooksi. This name is supposedly not valid and hasn't been for what is approaching two decades yet we see this name on this forum every day.

This is why I mentioned that Kerby in my opinion has the most pull when it comes to knowing Cal Kings. Personally I have a very hard time distinguishing some from each other. It is one of the reasons I don't work with them........only recently ave I aquired some. Matter of factly I could have got in on the Blue Eyed Blondes when not many had taken notice but for the pricetag I was afraid I would have had a hard time convincing people they were something different.

The fact is some people who have some very specific tyes of Kings and are known for them don't have much to say about them. I won't name names but some work with much mroe high dollar animals so they look at these snakes many of us are really into in the simplest terms. It doesn't seem as if they feel it is worth talking about too much....

The other part that stinks is when someone finally makes an effort to explain things such as the history of a morph, the finding of something locale specific, or something unexpected pops out of snakes that were not known ot be hets there will always be some who chose to fight it and attack that person til they get so frustrated they wanna puke. This is the downside of the name game. However if things were on the more positive side and people were taking it seriously and trying to get things straight....I'd be paying a LOT of attention to those posts.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I agree with what Tom and Zach, and Bluerosy have said. Personally I really don't give a rat's a$$ what they are called. This forum is just a pimple on a nat's a$$ when it comes to those who have kings. Don't get me wrong, I'm not minimizing anyone's contribution on this forum (mine included LOL), but I know that there are hundreds/if not a thousand of king breeders who don't even look at this forum and share what they know. I know of numerous king breeders who don't even advertise here or sell from the classifieds.....what I'm getting at is.....although Bluerosy, Zach, and Tom, myself and OTHERS have expressed concerns about proper naming of kings..I don't believe this forum will be a successful avenue for that change. I have had articles published in Breakthrough magazine (for taxidermists) that has a distribution of over 10,000 world wide...so maybe I might try to convince Reptiles magazine to publish an article with pics on cal king morphs in relation to proper naming. Of course they probably don't pay near as much as Breakthrough magazine LOL!

I do agree that we need uniformity and acceptance on the proper naming of cal kings.....I'll accept whatever the board decides.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

You are absolutely right in that the information needs to go beyond an internet forum. I actually was just looking up the guidelines for submitting articles to reptiles magazine myself when I read your post. But the thing is that there has to be some sort of consensus before publishing your own opinions, otherwise the people on the other half of the coin will disagree with the author, keep using the names that they feel comfortable with, and the problem doesn't go away.

As far as I know this is more of a problem for colubrids, and specifically kings, then any other group of reptiles that I can think of. We need to get our s**t together! The way things stand are just confusing, misleading, and ultimately it holds back progress by interupting the flow of information and knowledge.

I too know many breeders who never visit KS. But KS is the biggest and most popular herp forum on the web. Several large influential people are on here regularly, and many more are occassional visitors. We come from all over the country. The trend towards organization needs to start somewhere.

People tend to call things what they were told when they bought them. Kerby, how many calis do you expect this year? Thats how many people will be directly effected by the names that you alone are responsible for perpetuating. None of us can do squat by ourselves. I produce maybe 50 kings a year. Thats nothing. Its not even a drop in the pot. Back when I was the manager at Jungle Exotics, I felt like my opinions reached a lot more people, but now not so much. Now I am just angry at the consumer end of things.

This problem hasn't been dealt with for exactly the reason that tom said. Money. My kings are by far my cheapest snakes, and there are SOOOOO dang many of them, with so many different breeders that reaching any kind of consensus seems like an impossible task, and one that wouldn't be worth anyones time or energy.

But I like these snakes, thats the only reason I keep them. Even when I am poor, moving across the country, and trying to reduce my collection, I keep my good old, cheap as hell, non morph kingsnakes. And it pisses me off that I can't get more into this hypo project that I am working with simply because of a lack of information flow.

Sorry... now that I am done with my rant...

I really do think that a few people can influence many and it would help to all be on the same page, on the largest herp forum on the web. I would also love to see pics of the more obscure morphs and maybe learn a thing or two about where they came from. So I will keep posting pics, and my own opinions and I hope that people will disagree, and post their own.

And tom, you are right, if this is to be comprehensive it will take more then just the regulars on this forum. But I am willing to make phone calls, and send emails to pick peoples brains a little if I have to!

Kerby...bottom line...whens the book coming out? I know you think you need a few more years to work out some genes, but I'm pretty sure you can keep saying that till the day you die. Maybe you'll just have to do more then one!

You brought up a lot of good points.

Also,...
**Kerby...bottom line...whens the book coming out? I know you think you need a few more years to work out some genes, but I'm pretty sure you can keep saying that till the day you die. Maybe you'll just have to do more then one!**

So true!

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

""but I know that there are hundreds/if not a thousand of king breeders who don't even look at this forum and share what they know""

That is true, but another downfall of the hobby is some people out there who could really help others understand snakes better don't share because so many newbies become know it alls overnight.

I know KS is just a small percentage of herpers, but perhaps if eventually there was a site dedicated to the proper names of all Cal King variants it will get noticed.

I like a lot of the stuff you have produced, but I am waiting for something new to pop up before getting in on anything. On a different note the few I have now grow a lot slower than my other Kings. I think that has always been part of the appeal for Florida Kings for me, they grow so fast and lay large clutches. I am so flippin impatient LOL.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

There is a registry for corn snake genetics.
Basically a database of who sired who.

I gather only a fraction of corn snakes are actually registered, but it has the advantage of being able to see what lines are compat with what lines from those who have.

Most of the big breeders never will - too much effort for what is not going to make them money. But hobbyist breeders might if it were not too much trouble to do so.

Maybe this summer I'll try to throw together a little php/MySQL web application that can be used for the purpose - if I have the time. Beeb awhile since I did any PHP and all my PHP books are now seriously outdated (lot has changed since PHP4). MySQL has changed too but not that much since it at least tries to be somewhat standard SQL compliant.

If I did it, I'd probably want to use Hubbs upcoming book as a base for wild type (naturally occuring) phases.

The hard thing though is always going to be mis-identification by the user. If someone says their king is a BEB and it isn't, then testing that BEB against another hypo may show compat when in fact they aren't. So for named lines like BEB, testing against other lines would have to be done using snakes with known lineage from a breeder as close to original line as possible (I believe vivid in BEB case)

Genes being compat doesn't mean they should be named the same thing. As kerby pointed out, there is visible difference between Davis and Mendota - but the gene may be the same or compat - distinguishable difference caused by other locale specific genes. I guess that could be solved by having "gene" identifier(s), "line" identifier, and "locality" identifier.

Maybe this summer I'll have something available online for playing with. If I do, I'd probably limit it to Cal Kings for playing with it until the code isn't complete tish.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 5 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (Cal. Alligator Lizard)