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Can anyone here shed some light on these guys...??

All of the amel Yellows that I've ever seen retain their blotches into adulthood, whereas normals get stripes.

Thanks.
byron.d

>>Can anyone here shed some light on these guys...??
>>
>>All of the amel Yellows that I've ever seen retain their blotches into adulthood, whereas normals get stripes.

Bryon,
Can't help you with the history of amel yellows, I've heard many different stories over the years. Not sure which are legit or not, sorry.

But to answer your other question, the reason amelanistic yellows don't have stripes is because the snake has no melanin. Stripes on normal yellow rats are created by melanin as the snake grows (they are blotched at hatch) and over time the blotches fade and the stripes become the prominent feature. Of course there are some locales where yellows tend to hang onto their juvenile blotching, and others where stripes are very clean. That's mostly just normal variation.

One good way to tell if an amel yellow is "pure" or not is to breed it to a wild type. If the offspring grow up to be "olive" with blotches, you can bet the bank there is something else in the mix. I've always laughed at ads for "PURE" yellow rat this or that when the parents/offspring were dark green and blotched. Proof's in the pudding so to speak... lol.

Take care,
dg

Hey, Dwight,

Here's a pic of a girl I picked up that was supposed to be yellow but the seller even doubted it due to the blotches. I picked up the snake anyway, as I found her attractive and plan on crossing her with my amel to see what pops out (she's a niece of het albino and het axanthic crossings from the originals collected by Art Bass).

After getting her, I found out that the animals collected by Bass produced heavily patterened offspring, some of which kept the pattern, as this one here does.

I do wonder if underlying traits can affect outward ones. Also, where do those patterned variants you mention appear in the wild?

Thanks!

can also say that there is PLENTY!!! of "mixing" this and that when it comes to these, and many other snakes on the market.

And like he mentioned,....a "true" albino(amelanistic)is left with whatever underlying pigmentation is left in that particular animal when black(melanin) is excluded,....nothing more,..nothing
less. Thus, the heavy pink/red pattern seen on the albino Black Ratsnake.

Keeping this in mind,..a "truly pure" Yellow Ratsnake would not have anything missing but the melanin, and all the colors that would be left(yellow), would then be "cleaned-up" and intensified due to there being no melanin to "muddy" things up. The snake would have a VERY strong yellow coloration, because the yellow producing pigment cells(xanthphores) would not be affected at all........there's not much doubt that the reddish/pink, heavily blotched patterned snakes on the market are being heavily influenced by gene-flow from the Black Rat, "Bubblegum"(black, yellow/everglades) Rat complex!

Looking at the photo of the one you have pictured(from Bass), leaves no doubt whatsoever that it has gene-flow from another source,....Black, Texas, Gray, or whatever.

Please don't think I'm trying to "bash" you and the animals!LOL
but rather only trying to make some basic points on the lineage of the snakes.

I can tell you for sure that whoever caught the "Yellow" in the last photo, acquired it from an intergrade zone,.....there's a large intergrade zone that runs southern South Carolina, through central Georgia, and into the Florida panhandle, where there can be heavy influence from the Gray Ratsnake as well!.

Below is a photo of a wild-caught "Yellow Rat" I caught from Brevard County, on the coast of central Florida.

I don't think there's any mistaking this one for anything but a "pure-as-the-driven-snow" Yellow Ratsnake!!

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks, Doug! I don't take any of this as bashing--I welcome comments and information, especially those as insightful as yours.

I did mention that in spite of the seller's and even my own doubts, I purchased the female anyway, as I find her attractive and would be curious to see what pops out when the albino gene shows itself. I also realize that even when people don't intergrade these guys, the snakes will do it themselves (e.g., greenish ratsnakes).

I'm confident the male albino I have is wild caught, though agree with Dwight he looks bubblegummy. In person he actually looks light/hypoish (those cool colors seem to come up with a camera flash). His irises are blue grey, and I've thus far only seen pink eyes on bubblegums.

And I'm still trying to find out how white-sided differs from piebaldism--I know the one affects the pattern, but pigment condition is the same in both, or am I wrong?

Nice capture, by the way! Here's the WC female I got from Mark Lucas from the general vicinity of the albino male--a lot of orange in her. These guys are great!

Best,

Andy

Wow!....that one you have from Mark Lucas looks just like the one I have!!....you don't know where he caught it!?...do you?

I'm not really sure of the origin of the white-side, other than it is supposed to be a mutation from a "pure" everglades rat, not a yellow rat!......that was from a couple very knowledgeable
sources.

I don't really think the gene has much to do with being "piebald" either, as that is usually some form of patches, or freckling in ALL the other known piebald animals that I'm familiar with, but someone else could have another totally different opinion about it!....that certainly wouldn't be a first!!,...would it???!LOL

anyway, nice animals!, and happy herping!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>Here's a pic of a girl I picked up that was supposed to be yellow but the seller even doubted it due to the blotches.

Sorry but that's definitely a 'greenish' rat snake.

>> (she's a niece of het albino and het axanthic crossings from the originals collected by Art Bass).

I saw the original Bass animals in Daytona a few years ago and also the 'double het' animals that were from that breeding. The double hets were obviously greenish rats. BTW, that original albino male used to create those double hets is currently in my possession. But its actually an albino greenish, not an albino yellow.

>>After getting her, I found out that the animals collected by Bass produced heavily patterened offspring, some of which kept the pattern, as this one here does.

Because they were not pure yellow to begin with, lol. Even the supposed axanthic (which was a male, BTW) didn't look like a yellow rat to me.

>>I do wonder if underlying traits can affect outward ones. Also, where do those patterned variants you mention appear in the wild?

Actually what I meant to say was that certain populations of yellows can retain vestiges of the blotches... but aren't actually blotched animals. Meaning the blotches are somewhat visible but not prominent... if that makes sense. These occur mainly in the 'overlap' areas mentioned in DMong's post.

Take care,
dg

No need to be sorry that she's a greenish--as I said, even the seller was doubtful as to her "purity", but I picked her up because I thought (and do think) she's a beauty.

Would it be possible to post a pic of the albino greenish you have?

And in order for a specimen to be a bubblegum, does it have to have glades, yellow, and black in the mix?

Thanks!

Andy

In the early nineties Bill Love(then of Glades Herp. inc) introduced albinism from the albino "Yellow" Ratsnake into his awesome line of "Everglades" Ratsnakes(rossalleni), and then bred those to his albino Black Ratsnake. This combination is what he coined "Bubblegum" Ratsnake!,.....
So the answer would be yes!, the lineage of ALL THREE are what made up the original "designer" snake......like yours, others can look very "bubblegummish" due to the rosie/pink coloration of the albino Black Ratsnake, but to be a "true Bubblegum" it has to be from the same lineage of ALL three!......but realistically, the "Yellow Rat" is out of the picture!, if you had an albino true "Everglades", and bred it to an albino Black Ratsnake, that would be the "makings" for the "bubblegum", the yellow Rat was just a "vehicle" for the amelanism to get to the "Everglades".....the more "pure" the "Everglades" are(high orange), the more vivid the Bubblegum will be! although of course there will be variation within any given clutch of offspring.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>Would it be possible to post a pic of the albino greenish you have?

Yep, will do as soon as I can. I also have some other photos that might be relevant.

>>And in order for a specimen to be a bubblegum, does it have to have glades, yellow, and black in the mix?

Yep, that's what most call a bubblegum rat.. the amelanistic mix of those three. DMong summed it up pretty well. Another tidbit, (IIRC) according to Kathy Love's older pricelists she selected for the most "orange" albino bubblegum rats for her own colony so alot of the albino bubblegums from her lines are quite orangey. I dig up some older photos of those as well when I can.

dg

np

Byron,

All of the albino 'Yellow Ratsnakes' that I've seen so far retained the blotched pattern into adulthood. Of course, that doesn't mean one can safely asume that these blotched albino's are indeed pure Yellow Ratsnakes. I have serious doubts with at least some of the strains that I've seen. If purity isn't all that important to you, if it's just a solid yellow albino ratsnake what you want, then try to get a blotchless albino 'Yellow Ratsnake'. These are a bit harder to find, but well worth the effort. I happen to own a pair of these, and I think they're great. Don't know if they're pure, nor do I care.

Hope this helps. Regards,

Herman Bronsgeest.

np

I can't add anything to the history of the albino, yellow rat snake, but I will take this opportunity to show off my pair. They're both 2005 babies and are yellowing up very nicely.

Here is my female:

And here is my male:

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Gregg
The Corn Snake Pit

Nice! Where did you get yours?

very, very nice looking.

byron.d