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I'm hoping someone in this forum can help me with a savannah monitor problem I'm having. I've bred and raised many snakes and lizards, but these are my first monitors. I researched savannahs for months now, following the Daniel Bennett book for husbandry. Two months ago, I purchased 4 hatchling monitors from a reputable dealer (probably farm hatched). They were held in seperate 10 gallon tanks on paper towels, so that fecals could be done. All checked out negative for eggs and externally for parasites by an ARVA member vet that I've used in the past. However, the vet recommended a prophylactic treatment with Panicure to treat any possible stages missed by the fecal examination. Once I found out all were parasite-free, I put all the hatchlings together in a 40 gallon breeder. Each hatchling had an average mass of about 10-12 g and was about 3-4 inches long (head to tail). The husbandry was as follows: 3-4 inches of topspoil/sand mix, kept moist enough for burrowing, which they often did. A "Rete's Stack" was supplied under 100 W basking bulb with a surface temp of 130 F all the way down to 75 F at the bottom. Another shelter was provided close to the ground on the other side that was also at 75 F. The basking bulb was on 12-12 cycle with a night bulb that maintained the surface temp at 70-75 F at night. All temps were routinely checked with an IR temp gun. Humidity is kept between 40-50% with misting of the soil. A bowl of fresh water was provided every day which the animals would often soak in and defecate in. 2-3 dozen dusted crickets offerred daily made up the staple diet for all four. After an adjustment period of two weeks or so, all hatchlings would openly feed in front of me with gusto. However, one hatchling has begun to grow much faster than the others, and is now several grams and 1-2 inches larger than his cohorts. Two weeks ago, I found one of the monitors dead. No external marks were apparent and it had grown more than an inch or so since the purchase. However, it's mouth was partially open with some dirt just on the inside of its mouth, but the trachea appeared unblocked. Today, I found another monitor dead, in nearly the same fashion. The hatchling was feeding great and, at death, measured 11.5 cm (S to V) and weighed 29.0 g. This was almost three times the initial purchase weight, and I had just given it it's last dose of the Panicur. Tomorrow, I will make another appointment with the vet and take the little guy's body in for examination. I feel like these animals were well established and disease free and am at a loss on any husbandry issues. I have two concerns, however. Could the larger hatchling be killing the others? It is now large enough that it takes a pinky or two a week. While it was larger than the others, I saw no signs of fighting even while feeding. They were all roughly the same age/size when purchased. I kept them together in hopes of breeding. The other hatchling left is now only half its size and I fear I will lose it too. Should I not house them together? Could it also be an impaction issue with the soil? Both dead monitors did have some soil in their mouth, but just on the inside of the jaws. I chose soil because I thought it would help with humidity and they often burrow into it. I don't want to lose the last little hatchling, if the problem is the big guy killing his cage mates. However, if this is the problem, than how do I establish a breeding group? I apologize for the long post, but I think you need to have all of the information. I really enjoy these creatures and would like to solve this problem right away. I appreciate any help you can give and thanks for reading the post.

If the fecals came up negative why subject them to treatments? Some parasites are natural and don't become a problem unless there are stress or poor husbandry issues which it sounds like you don,t have. It sounds like you have all your ducks in a row except for the unnecessary treatments.

My vet did the fecal, but that only looks for eggs rather than the adults. He wanted to break the life cycle of several parasites, so he had me treat them every two weeks for three treatments total. I agree this might have added some stress to the animals, but they seemed to feed and act normally afterward, so I don't think that was the reason for their death. In fact, the one that died today had tripled its weight and added an inch in length. At least, I hope I didn't harm them. Thanks for the advice.

First, it seems you did your homework(WAY TO WELL) You did everything you can do, but one thing. You may not understand what farm raised means. Which may be very important.

You must understand, wild caught is no different that captive hatched with a well balanced none tortured individual. That is, I can go catch a wild monitor, take very good care of it from the moment I catch it. I then bring it into captivity and it will do fine.

So, being wild caught is not the REAL problem. What is the real problem is what "normally" happens to wild caughts. In many cases they are tied to sticks or have a string tied to their hips and tied to a tree. Then they are housed in old drums and such or in big wire cages with hundreds of other monitors of many species. In the case of farm raised, they are taken from gravid females or nests. Then hatched in captivity, by the thousands, they are kept in bins of thousands, stacked deep in baby savs. They are kept that way until shipped. They are then shipped in bags of many lizards. Then recieved at one of several airports. They are inspected(sometimes) then released to importers. They then divide them up amoungst many jobbers and they house them in bins many monitors deep. This can go on, over and over alone each step until it reaches you.

Sometimes, someone along the way one middleman treats them. Then another, then another, then you. They treat them for something that does not hurt them( I find that an odd thought)

So, I ask, what do you expect from these animals? Are you feeling lucky, because you are fairly lucky if three out of four actually lives, muchless thrive.

So no, its not about what you did or do, and its not really about the vet, althought they should not treat for something that is not a problem.

The real problem is the damage that occured along the way to your place. Organ damage, phyical streses of all types, mental stresses of all types, exposed to many possible pathogens, etc. Beyond our imagination. I think good husbandry can only do so much. It cannot fix the dead.

IT appears to me that you dot all the i's and cross all the tee's. You may think that is suppose to rid you of all problems. The problem is, it doesn't. It only assists in the progress of a suitable canidate. It gives you and the monitor a better chance. But its still only a chance.

I ask, what would the mental state of any animals stacked feet deep in other animals???? I surely would not do that with any of my captive hatched monitors. Cheers

I appreciate the advice. I do realize the difficulty in successfully trying to raise farm-hatched individuals. I actually spent quite a bit of time trying to locate CB savannahs, but the few breeders I could locate had either stopped breeding them or nothing was available. I'd still be interested if anyone knows of someone working with CB savannahs? I was just surpised that they would start to feed and grow so well and then die. After two months, there was significant growth and behavioral changes that seemed to indicate that they would do well. I felt like they might become established. What I really wanted to know if anyone had experienced this kind of thing before with savannahs? That is, could the larger animal being killing the others? I ask because I still have two and I want to give them the best care I can. Should I seperate them? Is it common for these hatchlings to start feeding, growing, etc. and then die or is there reason to suspect somtheing else...disease or intraspecies killing? I know that I don't have as many years into this as all of you, but I have tried to research and prepare for this all that I can. At some point, all monitor species have come from WC or CH babies. Maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to hope that someday, if I could get savannahs established and breeding, I could help reduce the demand for WC animals...if only in my small part of the world! If any had a chance at survival, these were a good candidate. They were recently hatched, I selected healthy individuals, I had a thorough vet visit, and researched their husbandry for more than a year. I know all of this doesn't compare to your experience, but I am trying. It isn't the "cost" of CH animal, either. I've spent plenty on the setup, food, supplements and vet bills. I just can't locate a true CB savannah breeder and I'm not interested in argus, ackies, etc. I do care a lot for these animals and I don't want to see anything happen to the other two. I certainly don't want to see the smaller one killed by the larger. Again, thanks for the advice and if anyone can shed some light on this situation, I appreciate it.

There is reason they are not bred. Its basically a really nasty circle. The F.R., hahahahahahahahahaha farm raised is my user name, hahahahahahahaha. Whoops sorry.

The is, they come in at less them or around $5.00 each. So captives cannot compete in no way or fashion. It will cost you over a $100.00 per hatchling for a very long time and you can NEVER get below $50.00 per. That is unless you lived in a place(africa) that has the weather they need, and do not feed them or use any electricity or pay people over about $3.00 a month and do not take any pay yourself. hahahahahahahahaha You get the point.

One huge reason they do not breed them or feed them in Africa is, protien, which is what you feed them is a rare and expensive commodity, which normally has more value then the monitors your feeding.

So you breeding them to ease the demand is really not going to happen. They import tens of thousands, how many are you going to produce? Whatever you produce will not even effect 1% of what is imported.

About one baby killing the other, they cannot kill eachother with Voodoo. That is, one has to bite the heck out of the other to actually kill it. In most cases, one dominates another and bites it too. After long periods of this and many obvious wounds, the weaker animal may perish or may not. So if you could not see any wounds and it happened quickly, this is probably not where I would be looking.

Agian it appears your keen on what you do. THe problem with living animals, particularly ones you have little experience with, you cannot figure out many many of these things with one event. You will need many events to acutally get a handle of this sort of event.

My advice is heartless, if your buying imported animals, you must consider buying about double what you plan to keep. That is a very smart approach. Cheers

well said Frank, but I have a question. When I read the original post my first thought was 'why are you treating them with anything?'. I just have never much bought into the need to treat imported animals...unless something is wrong, and honestly by the time I have noticed something wrong it is way wrong. Do you think the parasite treatments stressed them and helped with their demise?

Oh and to the original poster sorry for your losses.

Tom

I don't want to confuse the issue, but I do not treat monitors, wild caught or otherwise with anything. Unless its called for.

I have not had problems with any parasites with monitors or anyother reptile. But I do support their immue system.

With that said, I am not taking care of this keepers animals, or anyone elses and I do not know what they are doing. So I cannot say what is needed or not. They may have horrible or better husbandry then I, I do not know.

My personal opinion is, If supportive husbandry does not fix the problem, my bet is the monitor would die anyway. As in, what allows the parasites to bloom and take over an animal, also harmed the animal beyond repair. Remember, thats my opinion.

In practice, I have far better reproductive success with untreated individuals. I have seen a connection with ovarian problems and monitors treated for parasites. As has at least one vet. Remember, it may not be due to proper treatment. But these animals are often treated every step along the way. Cheers

Treating the monitors preventatively wasn't my idea. It was under the advisement of a vet whose had many years of experience with reptiles and monitors. Although the fecal samples on each animal came back negative for parasite eggs, he explained to me that that doesn't always mean they may not have parasites. He was trying to break the life cycle of any adults in these animals. I'm not saying this was the correct advice, but I definitely didn't do it on my own accord. The Panicure was prescribed. However, all of the animals treated were growing and gaining weight, so I'm not sure that bi-weekly treatment caused their demise. I didn't handle them at all, except for these brief periods to let them adjust. However, I'm very new to this and have never worked with imports. This was just one of the suggestions in the Bennett book and I followed it. They appeared otherwise healthy and eating. Thanks for the kind words. I wish I could find CB savannahs. It's been frustrating and sad. I thought I'd done everything right for these animals.

Hello RLK & Frank,
Mary and I are currently working with a 2.4 group of savannah monitors. We have followed all of the suggested husbandry- thanks FR... We have documented on video some combat and as of recently all of our subordinate monitors including the females had to be removed from the dominate male- who has grown at twice the rate and takes control during feedings... He has demonstrated the twitching behavior after chasing down cage mates but the females seem to know how to respond(dropping flat and motionless) but the smaller male was attacked ruthlessly and pursued until he would hide where he could not be found. We slowly removed females over the course of weeks as we noticed one by one animals were not using a front leg(bite damage?). They have since the removal all recovered and the 1.4 seem to be getting along fine. I have observed a female drag another female from a burrow by biting the back leg and base of the tail but after extracting her, she and another different female moved in. The male that I popped on varanus.net was the smaller male who was actually the second to last individual who lasted in with the big male(I am guessing that sex at this age doesn't provoke attacks???- maybe strictly territorial). I have also seen similar behavior among my ornatus(1.2) but it fizzled out and has not been observed in weeks, and again, as FR has mentioned- none of this was lethal. Just thought you guys might be interested in this... Best to you- Mike

Mike:
Thanks for the information. How old are your savannahs now? How did you establish your group? I'm trying to work with young hatchlings (under 4-5 inches), but I'm having some trouble. I orginally had 4 of all the same size. All have grown, but one has really taken off. After about 1 month, two have died, yet they were growing, feeding, and demonstrating classic monitor behavior. Now, I have one larger hatchling and one smaller one. I've seen little squabbles, but no bite marks noticeable, even on the ones that have died. Would you seperate them? Do you raise your hatchlings separately and,if so, how and when do you introduce them? This seems counter to the Bennett and Ravi book. I appreciate the advice. Your information is something I can really use. Thanks again.

Hello RLK,
I started with animals the size of yours also(they still had an umbilicle spot). Funny thing, on a seperate subject- they were easily sexed at this size even from above... I seperated the 1.4 away from the big male- they, 1.4 are now together and fine. I ordered Bennetts book from Mampam.com but have not got it yet. I have tried to follow what FR posts and apply the little that I know- try not to draw too many conclusions too soon. We allowed our monitors to fight it out for a while before we made the decision to seperate- but we will again try another reintroduction when the sizes level out some. I don't know if this will work(for breeding) as I don't have that experience to draw from. Also, we have had our group for 1 month and 13 days and our large male has grown at least 7 inches and our smallest one has grown a little over 3 inches (this is added to the 4 inches when we got them!). We have also derived so much enjoyment out of these monitors and we find ourselves thinking of what more we can provide for them- our 8/3 troughs are ordered... We really do hope to breed these animals and are not concerned with the profit- because it will be a loss in every aspect but the joy factor- this is what is important to us nowadays... Keep trying, you are experiencing the reality of reptiles but the joy of hatchlings will be worth the lessons and losses. Best to you- Mike
By the way, when you say 40 gallon breeder, if these are the glass tanks be sure not to use the screen tops- they kill.

I, too, am following Bennett's book. I think the husbandry is correct, at least according to the sources I've read. May I ask if your animals were CB or imports? Did you have a vet check done or the fecals done? I did this because I've had little experience with imports and the Bennett book suggests it. Have you always housed yours together (until recently)? I'm currently housing the last two remaining monitors on 4" of soil/sand in a 40 gallon breeder, but I'm using the screen. Why is this dangerous? The animals don't have access to it. The highest basking spot is still several inches away from the top, yet in brings them close enough to the heat to achieve about 130 F in one area. Also, have you had many losses to establish your 6 animals? I originally purchased 4 animals and now only have two. It's depressing and frustrating to research, set up and worry about them and still have such high casualties. Thanks for your help.

Hello RLK,
I don't know what Bennett's book says as I have not read it but I am awaiting my copy. But, in your case, I would attribute your losses to the screen top. Your animals probably dehydrated. This happens... FR can explain much better than I... but my understanding is that your home is full of dry AC air- this air gets sucked into the tank by the upflow of the heat that is leaving the tank...this drys out the humidity within the tank and the occupants - point being, it kills. I lost monitors before I learned this. Don't use them, solid lids only- light set inside the top. Get back on the horse, you are working in the right direction. Apply this lesson to the monitors that you have left and try again. Best to you- Mike

Thanks for the advice. I do have a solid piece of acrylic on the top to prevent this. I also have a hygrometer in the tank and it registers around 40-50% humidity. I think that should be good. Did you treat yours at all for anything? I wonder if that's where my problem lies. Thanks again and I'll keep trying.

Hey just an idea. Since you feed them daily with 2-3 dozen of crickets each day (Assuming you do nearly the exact numbers everytime) do you think maybe your bigger guy is taking all the food - most of the 2-3 dozens of cricket leaving the little ones with less? Since his large size demands more food? Then your other 2 savannah were so hungry they were resorted to eating dirt which resulted in you finding monitors dead with dirt in their mouths? I think you should bring them to the vet and get them cut open and see what's inside the stomach. If it's not a parasite issue or fighting issue, maybe it's a food issue? Just a thought, could be it.

don't always work. I have a hatchling tort in an aquarium (I try to avoid aquariums for most reptiles), and I have acrylic covering the entire top of the screen except where the light sits, and for whatever reason, I may as well just have a screen top on that damn thing.

Try to fashion a lid with heat lamps mounted inside, and don't put in ventilation.

It definitely sounds like you've done your homework but have faced the reality that knowledge isn't wisdom. I don't mean that in a harsh or critical way. What you are about to learn from this experience will be wisdom. You've taken your knowledge and used it in a real-life situation and now it seems to call for some sort of adjustment. That is where wisdom comes from.

I'm not disputing what FR said about visible marks from the larger one attacking the others, he has a lot more experience than I do. But I can't help but wonder if because of their small size and the toughness of their bodies if its possible that bite marks weren't left.

My first thought when reading about you finding dirt only just in the inside of their mouths (I got the impression that it wasn't a mouthful but more like on one side or another.) was that it could be characteristic of the way Savs kill their prey, by grabbing it & forcibly rubbing it against the ground, sometimes breaking the prey's neck.

The only other reason I can think of that they would have dirt in their mouths would be if they got a hold of something toxic; water or anything else. I doubt the parasite treatment had anything to do with it.

You may just have a monster on your hands that needs to be sperated at least until it reaches the sub-adult or adult stage. Even then it may not get along except for mating, and I pity the woman he gets a hold of.

I would seperate 'em.

I'm sorry for your loss.

Best wishes!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

Hello Happyhillbilly,
The interesting thing about the fighting that I have seen is that it is not the same kind of attack that you see when they are disabling prey. It is more along the lines of a chase and bite to stress the pursued, torment. The other thing is that the damage that my animals received was temporarily crippling but there were no visible marks so I don't even know if it was the biting that caused the damage... I am thinking that FR has hit it on the nose but that what ryan just mentioned played a role also. I think RLK has probably the best idea about what could have gone wrong by now, I know I usually realize what happened after the fact... Best to you- Mike

Thanks, Mike!
I see what you mean; it's more of a "I'm the boss" type of bite than a "I'm gonna kill ya."

Thanks for sharing your experiences with me.

Have a good one!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

IS, there are one million possibilities, pick one any one. What good are possibilities? not much as the poster already had lots and lots of possibilities.

Also, biting that does not cause marks is not the same as biting that kills quickly. Yes, albigs hobble eachother, bite a limb and then limb around for a day or two. But sir, you could hobble all four legs and that will not kill them. Of course, you would notice that your monitor has turned into a snake.

The key to helping is, to offer the probable. We really do not "know". Cheers

Just kidding.

Nah, at the time, I felt my suspicion was plausible, but after reading what lizardheadmike just wrote & going back & reading your first reply again, I no longer feel that way.

I'd imagine that if agression was the cause, RLK would've seen warning signs beforehand, or at least afterwards.

I agree with you about the Internet bringing about too many possibilities. Forums can be a great source but in times like this, they can be more confusing than helpful due to so many people with different opinions.

My post was meant as more of a question than a solution.

Funny thing is, I came a hair from ordering 3 baby savs this mornin'. After thinking it over quite a bit & after reading this thread, I think I'm gonna hold out and save my money & space for an Eastern Diamondback or two. I've got a sav & a nile already.

Ya'll take care!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

To bad I cannot have EDB's, or I would get a pair with you. Cheers

I appreciate your advice and help. I've gone ahead and seperated them anyway and I am being very cautious of the humidity. I'm considering another set up top to increase humidity. I don't think it was impaction, though. No debris could be found in the GI tract. Thanks again for your ideas. I appreciate them

Thanks for the update, RLK.

I'm sorry that you still don't have an answer to "What happened?" Maybe one of these days something will click, giving you a better idea of what did happen.

Hang in there!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

I am not as experienced as some but more than others. My take...
You took highly stressed imported infants, overcrowded, shipped, dehydrated over a period, not fed...systems about to crash. You fed them a short time and plumped them a bit and then you poisoned them. Calculated poison, but poison on a stressed, ready to crash system.
Reptiles don't just keel over like a puppy or a kitten, they take time.
Did you do this for sure......50/50.IMO
They may have been destined to crash anyway....like buying a half dozen hatchling turtles from a bin of 500 and wondering why some of them fail and die. Not all of them are destined to live.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

honestly, i think the panacur killed them.

its serious stuff, especially for small animals. I would say that teh panacur caused some kind of internal organ damage and teh animal, although seemingly fine for a time, died soon after.

Having never seen a monitor in physical pain, I dont really know how this applies, however, in my day Ive seen a few snakes get it badly (either due to cars, golf carts, ignorant punks, etc).

One in particular stands out here, and it was a young ribbon snake in Florida. I found him on a golf course cart lane, where Im guessing hed been sunning and didnt move when a cart came along.... well, they caught him about mid body REALLY bad, completely crushed. I came along shortly after and had to watch the resulting death. I remember watching him twitch and struggle and try to pull himself forward. Something that stood out and reminds me of this was, he had his mouth slightly ajar and was dragging his face back and forth on the ground. By the time he finally stopped moving, he had quite a bit of loose dirt stuck to his face... just a thought.

Perhaps (and keep in mind, I have like NO experience, this is just logical thinking) this isnt a single thing that killed these animals, but rather a combination of many.

Dehydration is a thought with the screen top, but you say your measurements always read about 40-50%, so Im not so sure about that. If they WERE dehydrated though, i would def have that vet check stomach contents and make sure the bowel isnt obstructed in some way.

A larger cage-mate can pose a few problems; in that it can both physically bully smaller cage mates AND can consume the majority of food presented, often a combo of the 2.

What sort of soil are you making use of? Im guessing you made sure it was fertilizer/manure/pesticide free and made from organic material, yes?

Another thought is the fact that they are imports, Savs no less, which as FR said, is horrible for those animals. They arent really social and when hundreds, thousands of them get packed together... well, just think about being that lil Sav stuck on the bottom of that pile, too weak from stress or hunger to fight anymore, just letting yourself be trampled by your own kind. Not to mention, disease/parasites spread like wildfire in a group like that.

There is really no reason to have alot of these animals as pets- most people dont have the resources (years of their lives, time in the day, money in the pocket, interest in the animal, room in the house, etc) to care for many of the larger monitor species.

Do you REALLY need to have this animal? Is it THAT important to you? Why dont you try thinking of the animal, which you so desperately care for, and dont buy one.

I dont mean to be critical or attacking, im just thinking about this seriously.

You say you arent interested in Ackies and other smaller species... why not? Are you just another person that wants a giant lizard? Because as FR said, you breeding a few hatchlings each year wont change the import on savs one bit, not even 1% of 1%. So why are you so interested in this animal, which is likely going to come into your care sickly, likely horribly stressed both mentally and phsyically, probably dehydrated and underfed, goes on and on....

Simply put:
Theres about a million reasons NOT to own a Savannah Monitor. There arent many good reasons TO own one.

Just my opinion.

(PS. i realize how that sounds, considering I have a Nile, but I didnt buy/ wouldnt buy this thing myself, and on some level wish Id never taken it off my friends hands- ive spent well over $5,000 on this animal over the last 2.5 years, which I really could have used other places. If I actually trusted anyone to take decent care of him, I might try passing him off to someone else.... but I dont, because I dont trust anyone to actually do what they say they will in regards to that animals care- hes a good friend of mine at this point, and im not gonna just send him off with just anybody, lol.

If I had the option, Id send my guy, along with all of his species to go live back in their natural habitat with a ban on exportation of the species (for both the pet and skin trade). I feel horrible that i have this "captive" animal living in my home. Its great to watch him, great to interact with him, its great to have him there as far as im concerned.... but how great is it, how great can it POSSIBLY be, for him? These animals arent dogs, they are NOT domesticated, likely never truly will be, at least not in the fashion of a domestic dog. They ARE NOT MEANT to live like this, you have to understand that. Any monitor that survives is a combination of decent husbandry and luck, at least with the imports...)

Hello Nile,
I really enjoy all of my monitors and have no problem pulling out the cash to provide for them. Even my savannahs, don't mind it a bit. Heck, if I could get away with it, I'd stock nothing but food for them... Love to feed them, but it's all the cool things that I am seeing between the feedings that has me excited these days. Best to you- Mike

Still...

I dunno. Bringing wildlife into the home isnt something I really agree with fully and monitors are animals I would definitely consider "wildlife".

I know what you mean though, watching them go about their lives is amazing stuff.