Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is in relation to the debate [which will never end regardless of results like this] concerning raising a snake slow n steady or pumping them up and getting fast growth to maturity.

The snake is a Hypo Brooksi which I aquired as an adult. 4-5 years old but only 40 inches long. She got egg bound twice last year, and many would say she is done....... and would not breed her anymore. Know this, I did not need another clutch of Hypos to make or break me. I tried to breed her again to see if my methods would have a different end result, and they did.

She was bred and left in a 32 qt size box last season. She was perfectly healthy and never gave me any problems. Then the egg binding came and it was terrible but she made it through just fine. I started her this season in a 74 qt box. I also fed her a lot more than she ate last season. She bred readily and became gravid. She is noticeably bigger this year. She got a lot of excersize in the large cage, she was very restless as females usually are before she finally settled down and laid.

I had two nest boxes in her cage. One kitty litter tray, nice n spacious and one 6 qt box thinking she could chose where she wanted to lay and this choice would increase her chances of delivering the eggs without problems. Well she laid the clutch fine, behind both nest boxes LOL. Apparently she knocked a bunch of moist moss out of the tray and made her own nest in the darkest corner of the cage.

I have bred plenty of snakes in small containers. Many of us do every year. I have thought for a long time that bigger cages are just superior in every aspect and that we'd all be a little more successful if we used them. I know that this one clutch is not evidence that she will never become eggbound again, but I do know I would never put her back in a smaller cage and expect her to do as well. Just something to think about
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom,.....

That could very well have had everything to do with not having problems, aside from her being a little bigger now, all the extra movement,and being able to straighten out a little more, could have been "just the ticket"!....since when have you ever heard of wild snakes just sitting in a small container ALL YEAR LONG!??LOL.......know what I mean?......glad to hear she did much better this time around!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks Doug. I just get frustrated at times hearing the critics voice their disagreement with the way me and others I know do things. This slow n steady theory does not garantee anything, matter of fact in this case if anything it may have slowed the snakes growth to the point where it may have been stunted? I like to see snakes grow like weeds, and I think they prefer to grow quickly. Instinctively they probably want to grow fast to lessen the chance of them being eaten. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

A forum member just emailed me today saying how great his florida king is doing (since he took my advice) and started feeding it (a yearling) something bigger than pinks. Today he writes that it is eating 3 fuzzies every 3 days and is doing great.
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I still don't need no spell chack.

Surely there is some middle ground between a pink a week and 3 fuzzies every 3 days. Point is, a whole host of conditions including the snake’s individual constitution determine what the correct amount of feed is. What is fine in one set of circumstances might not be the best or even damaging in another.

I have never had a snake get fat on me. They just grow. When they reach adulthood the males go off food for breeding and the females are thin after laying. And that with small rubbermaids and limited exercise. I never had a snake get fat. Feed them as much as they want to eat is what I say.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

to get some extra mice one day, had the most OBESE snake I think I've EVER seen in my entire life!!,... it was rediculously
overweight!.......man!, you should have seen this thing!

It was an albino Cal. King, and it looked just like a tightly packed "polish sausage"!LOL.....it's skin was so stretched out that there was a huge space between every single scale!, it was just unbelievable that someone could let the thing get that fat!
every bend in the animal made a big "crease" just as if you tried to bend a big foam hose.

I told the owner that that snake needs to seriously be put on a diet!, and I told her it could easily afford to go a few months with no food at all(maybe a fuzzy now and then), and then just moderate ones after that........this thing was only about two and a half feet long, and as big around as a silver dollar!

Being gravid would have explained it's size, but I've never heard of eggs being stacked all the way to the snakes neck!!LOL

Just goes to show, anything's possible!, and people never cease to amaze me!!LOL

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug,

Its sounds like that snake you saw in a pet shop just ate another snake and they did not want to tell you about it.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Actually it did!!LOL,.....a young Ball Python,....but it was huge before that, and huge months after!

I agree,...after a snake consumes another snake, it can't bend, and resembles a fat "pipe"......good call!

this thing was just plain "Jabba the Hut"!!LOL
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>Feed them as much as they want to eat is what I say.

I think that is pretty bad advice. Assuming you just aren't missing signs of obesity in your animals, maybe "all they want" doesn't mean to you what it means to me. (Or maybe your mice aren't as healthy as mine....like they are fed poor quality dog food instead of good quality rodent chow???? I don't have a clue.) I don't discredit your experience or opinions, but that advice goes against all of the data I've ever seen - including the recomendations of most professionals: both breeders and vets.

Before taking your above words at face value, I hope novice keepers weigh alternative advice before deciding exactly how much to feed their snakes.

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

but that advice goes against all of the data I've ever seen - including the recomendations of most professionals: both breeders and vets.

Well that is true but that does not make it the right thing for the snake. Many armchair scientist have come up with hypotheses that just simply don't work in real life.

I have extensive experience in feild collecting as well and like you said there are snakes that are skinny and some that are very and "fat" (healthy normal). The fat ones come from areas where there is a high amount of snakes, food and reproduction. The skinny ones came from areas not best suited for there suvival and reproduction. Meaning lower densities because of the habitat. These factors contribute to suitable and unsuitable habitat do effect a snakes health. Things such as elevation, latitudes and habitat zones. Then there are optimum levels for each sector of that particular species range. Factors such as shelter. Snakes utilize an assortmant of avaliable cover materilas behind rocks and logs. Also access to water and the snakes potential for prey come into a snakes optimum healthy level of being snknny of "fat" found in the wild. The same thing goes for captivity.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I don't think this is anything really new. Lots of us have been saying for YEARS that excercise and obesity are the leading causes of dystocia in captive snakes. Larger cages - with all else being equal - equates to more excercise. You definitely did a good thing there. As one poster already mentioned, "you don't see wild snakes in small cages in the wild." I'll go one step further, though, and say that you never see these NA colubrids with fat rolls in the wild, either. Even if you ignore the physiological problems associated with obesity, the presence of the fat itself must be squeezed between the egg and the body. This means that the egg MUCH be harder to squeeze out of a fat snake than a skinny snake. Even if one doesn't want to accept the physiological evidence, the plain physics of the situation isn't deniable.

So, the above states that the larger cage (= more exercise) is likely to help prevent dystocia. I don't know of anyone with real breeding experience that has ever claimed otherwise. Does anyone know of a situation to contradict that statement of mine? However, this single case in no way proves - or even really supports - the idea that exercise caused the lack of dystocia in that female this year? Well, what elkse COULD be the cause then? Hmmmmm, LOTS of things. She IS a larger, older female. That alone could do it. Egg size? Yep, females will produce fewer, larger, eggs at times. I don't understand the biological logic of this, but older females frequently produce more SMALLER eggs, and THAT equates to less of a risk of dystocia. ALSO, brumation temps sure does seem to result in a variance in ovulation. I'm convinced that warmer brumation temps in many NA colubrids means fewer eggs are ovulated. Fewer eggs typically means (thanks to reproductive trade offs!) larger eggs. Changes in brumation temps for this reason - among others - could play a part in the occurance of dystocia. Hmmm, for that matter, a warmer brumation period equals a more active, non-feeding, snake resulting in more exercise and a reduction in stored fat, too. Right? Don't forget the effects of age (even if all else is held constant), nutrition (look up the effect of low Calcium levels on the occurance of dystocia), and the presence/absence of slugs.

In conclusion on this point, I STRONGLY state that larger cages reduce the chance of dystocia (among other health benefits), I don't think this example does much to support me hypothesis in and of itself.

Along the lines of "power-feeding" or maintaining snakes in an obese condition, I think my thoughts and reasonings are well known. Both are unacceptable in animals under MY care.

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

I would tend to say that all of what you said makes good sense!
and it's really just basic logic!......humans tend to overlook alot of things in life if it doesn't pertain DIRECTLY to them!

nature has had PLENTY of time to get things right! that's for sure!LOL......and people like us are just beginning to get some idea of what makes nature "tick"!

Anyway, I have to say that there's not a whole lot to argue about with what you stated!....good job!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

because it is apparent hobbyists who are not even breeders seem to frequently keep their snakes in small containers. My guess is this practice came from seeing the billions of pics on the net of guys using rack systems, many who are breeders.

I use racks, and have a lot of cages too. For this particular snake a 32 qt box didn't seem to be adequate, though for many other snakes the same size it worked out fine.

I have been saying for a long time if you can house your snakes in big cages go for it, the bigger the better with exception of hatchlings. I can see why the trend of racks went over so big with the hassle of cleaning large bulky heavy glass aquariums, but with the tons of new modern caging on the market we should encourage people to consider the benefits of cages over racks, or at least encourage them to by larger containers.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

...take their snakes for "walks"??
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

This was a good thread all around Tom. I still say stick with what works but don't be surprised if what works for most of the collection doesn't for some of it. Sometimes individual temperments and metabolisms just don't adapt well to the "norms" we devise. It would be boring otherwise.

Thanks Tony. I really had my doubts for this female but you never know unless you experiment. Some people think a snake is finished if it gets eggbound, this is not always the case.

Even if the snake is just a pet it only makes sense to think that a large enclosure should benefit the animal in numerous ways.

I have produced a ton of eggs from snakes in 32 qt boxes, but I am glad I accumulated a collection I am happy with, stopped buying snakes and moved on to buying more husbandry supplies and cages. I always enjoyed owning the snakes, but seeing them in spacious caging makes it even better. Especially those in my large cages from Boaphile. Wish I had a room full of similar cages for most of my stuff............someday I will.



Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I agree!! The roomier, the better for the snake.
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Genesis 1:1

Sort of in the same line of thought, I have kept many types of snakes that would be considered strictly “ground dwellers” in what would be considered a nice arboreal cage, and found that basically every snake seems to like to climb and explore and exercise in that type of cage. Racks are not really suited to keeping “pet” snakes. They are no different than keeping a hog in a small pen or a chicken in a small cage just to get eggs. It’s commercial farming like a snake mill equivalent of puppy mill. Not to say they can’t be well fed and kept clean and all most basic needs met, but it is the most basic maintenance option and not great for the snake IMHO. And what’s up with dystocia??? Woa man, I was never in your league!

Come on man!....get with the "program"!!LOL.....I thought they taught "dystocia 101" in grade-school!LOL

All you snake breeders out there have plenty of female snakes that have gone through "eutocia",....and have been alright!

Although a few have also had problems with "dystocia" which is NOT a good thing!.....catch my drift Upscale!?LOL

Just kiddin' around with a little sarcasm!LOL......"dystocia" is just a fancy medical term for meaning literally...dificult
labor!.....and that "AWESOME" word "eutocia" just means normal
labor!!LOL

your sarcastic friend, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Good post K.J.!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks, Billy.

How was y'all trip?

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

It went great!
Emailing you now...
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Genesis 1:1

Tom,
Years ago I had a very similar experience with an eggbound Sinaloan milksnake. Once moved to a more spacious cage (and a bigger nest box), she did fine.

I posted the results, and made the claim that bigger cages helps with egg binding. You should have seen the responses! Some were very heated.

Looking back, I agree that my statement based on one example would not hold water, but common sense does tell us that any snake in the wild does get to crawl around and straighten out at some point in the season, and that in captivity small sweaterboxes in relation to the snake prevent that from happening.

Since then, I have kept breeder snakes in larger cages, where a cool area is easier to keep cool compared to a smaller box. The females lay eggs nicely and I swear do all they need to do on less food. I suppose because they use the cool end alot they conserve, hence less food needed.

Keep posting experiences, info, etc. Makes for great discussions and thought.
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Mark