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Calcium

Quinton May 15, 2007 10:08 PM

I've heard all about it. How I should give a "calcium supplement" to my boxies. Especially for the females when they are developing eggs.

My question is: What are we missing in our daily feeding regiment?

Are they really scavengers that are just to slow to get to the carcass and are just left with the bones?

Or,is there is some kind of high calcium larva that they dig up?

I've been racking my brain with this and can't come to a conclusion. I've seen cuttle bone sold as a calcium supplement and I can honestly say that here in the panhandle of Texas I have never seen a wild squid dead in my back yard. So, where are they getting it(calcium that is)?

There has to be something that grows here that has enough calcium to support egg laying. So what is it???

If you can help that would be great! And if not, I'm sorry I gave you my head-ache. lol

Replies (14)

kensopher May 16, 2007 07:12 AM

The simple answer is...keepers have found that their results are much better when the turtles are given calcium supplementation. Hatchlings growth is smooth and even, and females lay more frequently and hatch rates are higher. It is simply results based.

As far as why...think of a cricket. I'll make it local for you. In most of Texas, the earth is loaded with limestone. Limestone contains a very high level of calcium. You may say that a turtle might accidentally eat dirt and get calcium. However, the vegetation that grows in your area typically requires high levels of calcium. Certain grasses are loaded with it. Crickets primarily eat vegetation in the wild. The crickets are gut loaded with high calcium vegetation and the turtles eats the crickets...boom, calcium supplementation. A wild turtle's dietary calcium most likely doesn't come from bones (Incidentally, bones are high in phosphorus. This is why you put bone meal in with your Tulips). It probably comes from guts, especially in insectivorous species like are found in West Texas.

In captivity, people usually feed crickets that are fed on potatoes or are starving. Or, they don't feed crickets at all and feed some other high protein, low calcium food.

I offer calcium supplementation because it is much easier than trying to duplicate a wild box turtle's diet...it's that simple. Even if you could duplicate it logistically, it has been very difficult for researchers to pinpoint the primary diet of a wild box turtle. So, you wouldn't know exactly what to feed and in what proportion. Much of the information regarding diet requirements for "hard to research" animals like box turtles historically comes anecdotally from private keepers and zoos. (Anyone ever try to do a stomach lavage on a box turtle? )

More important than a lot of calcium is the diet's calcium to phosphorus ratio, and the captive feeding regimen hasn't quite caught up with this concept yet. The rule of thumb is a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio. The only way this can be accomplished with many food items is to dust with calcium. Interestingly, that ratio is also results based. And, it was originally applied to Iguanids and tortoises(vegetarians). Since I've been following that, though, my results have been incredibly better. If something works, I generally do it.

This post is getting long, but please indulge me on this short story...
When I started reading that captive box turtles should be fed bitter greens and high calcium vegetables, I snorted, "HMPH, yeah right." I had been keeping box turtles for over a decade, and "knew" that a box turtle would never willingly chow on those items. I dusted insects with vitamin/mineral powder, but the majority of nonliving food items I offered were low calcium to phosphorus foods (mostly fruit and tomatoes). My hatchlings' growth was odd compared to wild turtles, my females only laid one clutch of soft eggs(often breaking them while laying), and my hatch rate was only about 50%.
Then, I watched a nature program and saw a video of what appeared to be a wild Gulf Coast box turtle grazing on bermuda grass. The turtle was scarfing it up like candy, and I couldn't believe my eyes! Well, the rest is history. I spoke with other keepers that I respected and got tips on how to enhance calcium to phosphorus ratios. I still occasionally offer items that are not the optimum, but the huge majority of food items are either naturally or artificially 2:1. The difference in results has been huge.
I apologize that this is so long...thanks for indulging me.

PHRatz May 16, 2007 07:56 AM

I enjoyed your simple answer Ken. It does reinforce why my girls are better off outside full time.
If only they would eat the Bermuda like the sulcata does! Hmmm I wonder if they do when I'm not looking?
I haven't dug up all the wild flowers growing in the pen & am hoping they'll eat some of those along with some of the insects I've seen in there.

I remember once in the 1970s I was in my backyard when I lived in a different town in West TX, and at the time way out in the country....& had no fence. I was walking along saw a wild box turtle then I saw a pretty yellow wild flower. I was thinking about picking the flower when the box turtle grabbed it & ate it. Man, was I ever surprised lol!
-----
PHRatz

biowarble May 16, 2007 02:24 PM

Ken wrote:

"Even if you could duplicate it logistically, it has been very difficult for researchers to pinpoint the primary diet of a wild box turtle. So, you wouldn't know exactly what to feed and in what proportion. Much of the information regarding diet requirements for "hard to research" animals like box turtles historically comes anecdotally from private keepers and zoos. (Anyone ever try to do a stomach lavage on a box turtle? )"

Well, I'm not quite sure what a lavage is.... and this old dictionary I can use right by the computer does not have it. But, since I've mentioned I hope to work with turtles as I get an MS degree studying one of my favorite species, Terrepene carolina or Chrysemys picta, I read a journal on the food "coactions" of Terrapene carolina carolina. Turns out they took a bunch of box turtles, killed them, then analyzed the digestive tract contents. (Been exchanging email with Jim Harding, and he said research like that would not be allowed today.) I could hardly get myself to read the article. I want to study turtles because I LIKE them and hope to do something that actually might lead us to understand turtles more and how to manage them....

kensopher May 16, 2007 03:58 PM

A lavage is just a fancy word for wash. They essentially sedate the turtle, hang it nearly upside down, insert a tube into the stomach, and pump saline in. The saline and (hopefully) the stomach contents flow out and are then collected for analysis. It's traumatic, but not nearly as final as death.

Good luck with your studies. Jim Harding is a great person to look up to.

biowarble May 18, 2007 08:48 AM

Thanks for the comments.

BTW, Jim does not have a doctorate - you called him Dr. Harding months ago when talking hybrids between species. But he's probably more knowledgeable that a lot of folks that DO have PhDs... he actually has an MS from MSU. And, he mentioned ways to find what turtles eat - what you described, but he did not call it lavage. (I also read a study that found what painteds eat in the "wild" - and they killed the turtles too.)

biowarble May 18, 2007 09:27 AM

I'm guessing a lavage has to be done with a a kind of salt that does not get absorbed into the blood. Those who have lower g.i. endoscopies get the same stuff the turtles do, I imagine.

kensopher May 18, 2007 11:01 AM

Wow, I guess I just assumed that Harding had a doctorate. I'm shocked.

It is my understanding that as long as the saline solution is isotonic, you shouldn't have a problem. I could be wrong about that. I've read about it being done, but have never done it myself.

FlatsFeet May 18, 2007 08:33 AM

Hey all,
Where do I get calcium supplement (powder?). At a pet store?
Is there a certain brand or type that I might look for ?
How about egg shells??? Would ground up eggshell be a good alternative ?

Thanks

JOE

strange_wings May 18, 2007 08:53 AM

"Where do I get calcium supplement (powder?). At a pet store?
Is there a certain brand or type that I might look for ?
How about egg shells??? Would ground up eggshell be a good alternative ? "

Yes, pet stores carry calcium and vitamin supplements powders for reptiles. For both, I use Rep-Cal brand.

Others may be ok with it, but I don't like the idea of feeding something brittle that would break with sharp pointy edges to my turtles, call me paranoid if you want.
There's also all the hormones and who knows what else that end up in commercial eggs.

Peeperskeeper May 18, 2007 11:31 AM

We have used brown egg shells, but we get them from a farmer who's chickens are natural and eat out of the yard and field.

We micro wave the shells for 1 minute then freeze them for 48 hours plus. Then we ground them to a powder.
I wouldn't use store eggs because of the antibiotics and they wash eggs in a bleach water mix to get them so white before packaging.

If anyone thinks this could be bad please tell it would save me allot of work.

FlatsFeet May 18, 2007 12:09 PM

Thanks for replies, they are appreciated.
Sounds like maybe the eggshell thing may be more trouble than its worth. I'll try to pick up the ca powder and dust the earthworms and maybe some fruit. Thanks, JOE

FlatsFeet May 20, 2007 08:20 PM

Is that to say that if turtles kept outside year round, in an area almost identical to their original home, and fed insects/worms from that area then they might not require Ca supplemaentation?

StephF May 21, 2007 08:30 AM

Supplementing their diet will probably be necessary if the turtles are kept in a pen.

FlatsFeet May 21, 2007 07:46 PM

Ok, got some Rep-Calccium powder, 0 phosphorus (Looks like gypsum dust). My understanding is that if turtles are omnivorous, they really don't need additional phosphorus. guess I'll use this once a week or so. any comments, thoughts or suggestions??

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