Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So my friend was a bit skeptical regarding Frank's mention of feeding his torts mice on occassion. As a strictly scientific experiement we threw a live mouse into his juv sulcatta enclosure (5-6". She did seem a little interested, but not really to eat, more out of curiousity.

We left for 5 minutes and came back and I kinda glanced over thinking about who I am going to feed the mouse to...and she had the mouse half eaten.

Because we are true scientists we decided we must try his larger, 18" male suclatta to further test this potential. This was science after all, knowledge is important people. CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP.

Hmmmmm. Next we moved on to his other large boy...sure enough...CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP.

As we watched one of them wander around with mouse blood and guts smeared around his mouth, we had a thought.

We took the little girl that first ate that mouse for us, held her to the sky and proclaimed to the world, "FROM NOW ON YOU WILL BE KNOWN AS FRANKIE, FRANKIE THE BLOOD-THIRSTY SULCATTA MONITOR, IN HONOR OF THE MAN WHO OPENED UP THIS POTENTIAL FOR US".

haha, learn something new everyday.

Tom

haha. Thanks for sharing!

This seems to be one of the most progressive/open minded group of people, thanks to Frank and others. He has taught and encouraged us to think outside the box and I am very grateful for that. Sadly, tort or other reptile people think we are nuts. haha

In this case I have a theory. A few years ago, it was common knowledge that Savs died when they ate mice. Fatty liver, this and that. What it turns out was, Savs and most other monitors were not kept in conditions that allowed the proper digestion of heavy foods(not hot enough). My theory is, this is the same with torts. If they do not have the proper heat range, then they will fail when they consume high protein food.

When I first obtained our male sulcatta, oh about 19 years ago, I noticed the stupid thing would sit in the sun and when its 110F out(ground temps 140F plus or minus) It did this on its own accord. We also fed it a lot of monkey chow(hi protien). One needed the other and visa versa.

One thing about Sulcattas, they come from a area of heat. So they know heat. You just need to give them a reason to seek heat.

So make sure you offer basking spots to sulcatta monitors, just like you would a regular monitors. Or it will flop over belly up and die a horrible death. or whatever happens when you feed mice to sulcatta monitors. Cheers

Sure reptile need heat; there is no doubt about it....lots of it. But animal will eat a lot of things they are not supposed to in captivity. Being thrown into an alien environment (captivity) really bring out their curiosity and habits in a way that we do not expect...like eating something they are not supposed to. Captivity is not the wild no matter how hard we try to simulate it; we can only do the best we can to provide eveyrthing they need so they can express their curiosity, persnality and habits like they would in the wild. Did you know iguanas will swallow pennies, panty hos, condom, pushpins, and many things, but is it good for them or do they eat it the wild? No! Iguanas are infermous for swallowing things they are not supposed to eat; hence, experience iguana keepers keep them away from particulate substrates. Did you know that cows and sheeps have been known to eat carrions of their dead comrades in captivity? But is that the type of food they are designed to eat...high protein? NO! The problems with feeding herbivorous animals, this include herbivorous reptiles like grazing tortoises and iguanas is that their digestive system is too efficient in breaking down the tough food because they are designed to digest plant matters, which have tough cellulose in addition to cell membrane to protect them, making it impossible for the animals to digest it on it's own without the help of microorganisms that thrive inside their gut at certain temperature... Their intestine also have chamber which the food passes through and sit for quite sometimes allowing the gut microflora to breakdown the plant so they can digest it and absorb the nutrient. Now if you offer high protein food like monkey biscuits to an iguanas or herbivorous tortoises, they will sit around the stomach for a long time the body breaks down the animal protein which then are deconstructed into purine, which is different than plant protein, which is deconstructed into paramadine (sp) when broken down. Herbivorous animals are not designed to properly deal with high level of purine in their liver and kidneys; thus, causing the animals to develop kidney and liver problem if fed high amount of animal protein for a long time, and in time the animal will die of kidney and liver failure. Their liver and kidneys have to work extremely hard to filter all the purine which they are not design to process. Melissa Kaplan know from experience what happen when she fed her iguana dog kibble; it only live to about 6 years of age intead of 10, 15, or perhaps even 20 years. Iguanas and herbvorous tortoise have shown they do not need animal protein and actually will thrive without it. The oldest iguana which was fed the correct diet, the usual greens and veggies, lived to be 29 years; it was given no animal protein. 29 years is rather rare for a green iguana, even today with the knowledge that we have gain keeping them. Whether you believe it or not, THERE IS scientific evidence in medical journals, (not theories) that herbivorous tortoises and iguanas will die of excruceating death if fed high amount of animal protein. And I don't get why you, Frank and others, compare monitors to tortoises and iguanas. They are totally different than the varanids. Tortoises and iguanas cost a lot more to keep than monitors, dogs and cats put together; this I have people on the iguana forum telling me. This guy has both a house full of iguanas, dogs, cats, and a white throat monitor; he said the cost of iguanas doesn't even compare to keeping monitor and dogs and cats, which is rather easy compare the his little green friends. Tortoises are not that easy to keep either. They need specialized diet like iguana and they need a proper large environment. Varanids pretty more adaptable than tortoise and iguana in captivity and their diet is rather simple...toss in a couple of rodents and they're fine for a couple days. Dont' take this the wrong way...but I'm rather concern about the animals you guys are caring for. I'm just speaking my opinion...not yelling or anything.

Wow. I've missed you. haha

Your post is a perfect example of why I am bored to hell with these forums, nothing personal really it’s not about you in particular, it’s about nonsense in general. I keep hearing this type of thing from keepers who never experienced anything outside the book, Damn this is frustrating, if you keep following Melissa Kaplan’s and the like you will never progress beyond them.

I guess I will go out and bury my 19year old sulcatta thats been eating mice and high protein its whole life(As well as a million pounds of mulberry and other greens)(and any old thing the wife, kids and grandkids throw out there). And darn, his dang shell is so smooth too.

And my darn baby Golden greek, I better stomp it dead to avoid the suffering its going thru. Oh I better do in the parents too.

Ok, I won't do either. As, they are fine.

Its so funny, its folks who have problems that post like you. And folks like me do not have those problems, its funny, odd, weird, a paradox, backwards, oh I guess just weird will do.

I guess bad things will happen to them in the next few decades, because nothing bad has happened in the last four decades. I am still waiting as they told me that crap a long time ago, waiting, still waiting. Cheers

Tortoises are pretty adaptable compared to iguana and 19 is still relatively young for a sulcata which can reach the age of 55-100.

Hello Paradon,
I have personally kept, maintained and reproduced a number of different iguanas and tortoises- including Cyclura, Iguana iguana (while living in Central America) and protein- both animal and plant played an important role in their growth and reproduction... Here on this forum "results count"... I am not doubting that sulcattas can live over 55 years of age, but show me the ones that you have managed for 55 years of your lifetime- how about 5 years- 2? Tell me about their low protein diets and the husbandry that you have conducted over the years. Step up- Mike

The simple facts is herbivores don't need animal protein. I don't know why some people think that their is no herbivorous reptiles and feel the need to feed their iguanas and tortoises animal protein. If you read from some good papers, herbivorous animals don't need animal protein to thrive...all they need is a good variety of plants to survive; their digestive tract are design to get every nutrient out of plants which is lower in nutrients than meat, but they are very adapted, so they don't need meat. Look at bisons and cape buffalos, for example, they grow big and strong just eating grasses; their digestive tract are meant to digest tough plant material so they can survive and don't need animal protein.

In fact herbivores have very poor digestive system, that’s why they eat constantly, more then 50% is not processed and expelled as hey balls (good combustible) sulcatas and leopards eat a lot of animal protein in nature, I have photos of the congregating and feeding on hippo carcase, snails, bull frogs, eggs, worms and fish in dried pools.

You need to stop listening to them fools!

The reason they expel 50% of their food is because plant matters are tough to digest which means they need a very efficent way to break down the tough cellulose (cell wall) of the plant they eat. If you put a carnivore on herbivorous diet, it will die from not being able to digest it. Human cannot digest the plants we eat unless we cook them a bit to breakdown the tough cell walls (cellulose). This is why herbivorous animal should not be fed on animal protein because their digestive tract is too efficient at breaking down the food they eat, and the deconstructed protein will overwhelm their kidneys and liver as a result.

Now your just plain "acticng" dumb. You said, humans cannot digest plants cell walls unless we cook them

Yup you don't have the brains nature gave a dead stick. No offense to your misguided brain, but I and all others I know consume uncooked plants all the time. WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU.

I guess I now understand why you say what you say, YOUR JUST FOOLING AROUND, as nobody can be that dumb, at least I hope your not. But if you are, you may have set some records. Cheers

How do you type in red?

When replying to a message click on Tools and Toys which is located under the message area. Cheers

red type
green type

That is according to the books I have read from U.C. Davis (one of the top medical schools in the U.S.) which advise people to cook their vegetables before eating them.

Please seek some advice, as you should not believe everything you read. You should read it, then research it and make sure its somewhat, a little, a tiny bit valid. Cheers and If were a praying man, I would pray for you. But I will think of you next time I see a wonderful view of nature and hope reality strikes you.

Oh, I see! Monitor people are expert in everything...including human nutrition. I guess you know better than those professors who study human body for living. I wonder how monitor husbandry have anything to do with human nutrition. It's a whole different animal. We human don't have the stomach or the gut to digest plant matter. Look at gorillas and chimpanzees...they have big stomach full of very long intestine to better digest tough plant matter.

I only know, you talk about torts on a monitor forum, then compare to cattle then humans, then all such, everything but the subject. I could give a hoot about humans a plants. Its not those folks thats the problem ITS YOU. you appear to be dumb as a stone. I hope this is a wakeup call to start to use YOUR brain and not barf up others information out of context.

The point, I have torts consuming animals protien, for longer then you have been alive and through generations of them. End of story game over, you lose. Hopefully this loss will be enough to shake you up enough so that you can prevent REAL meaningful losses.

You see, no matter what you say, or even others who think they are expert, I will go on being very successful at what I do with reptiles. Being is I recieve a very good level of success for my captives, I do not worry about the likes of you. The word expert is a label gained form results, not a label gained from reading something and remembering it out of context to its meaning. Cheers

Perhaps it's not worth my time explaining to people who do not understand how to read or how to argue without calling name and being rude. You, are the one that needs to wake up and start to explain your point without insulting someone. Everyone has the right to their own opinion, including you! I can't remember what they call people like you in Buddhism. English is not my first language, but I know the tone you are speaking...just like my neighbor's little kids constantly making fun of people and being rude.

They most likely have a name for you too. You are wrong and keep arguing backwards hoping if you keep repeating, it will turn right. Son, your wrong, about so much.

"The Paradox of Paradon" There is a problem and that problem is, many of the authors you read are like you. They too read something and pass it along as "true and real" but unfortunately, the authors they quote, also are only passing along what they read. In otherwords, they are not doing "the work" they are merely repeating what they read.

My case is unique, I have more monitors then all the varanid authors had in their lifes history. And I have done more with them. That puts me in a strange position. I have also kept and bred to generations torts iggies and chams etc to genertions. I have been doing this, NOT READING ABOUT IT, doing it. Since before your parents were born(a good bet, or close)

English is not my first language either. My first language is reptile. I speak reptile and have a very hard time converting that to any human language. You should throw out english and try to speak reptile.

You like to act smart but your missing some key words, in any language. When you say herbivore or carnivore, or diurnal or nocturnal. There are adjectives to those words that discribe or alter their meaning. In science the word "obligate" is often used, this means obligated to. As in, they do nothing else.

With reptiles, you did not read that torts are obligate herbivores or obligate veggies. They are plant consumers out of survival, as you mentioned, some species consume a greater varity of food types then others. Some land turtles are carivores mostly, but consume plants opportunistically. Others consume plants mostly but eat meat opportunistically.

You mention the gut of torts then compare that to a herbivore or rudiment. The problem is, their guts do not compare. Torts or other plant eating reptiles do not have a gut much different then meat eating reptiles. There my be slight adaptions, but ever so slight. And do not compare at all with mammalian herbivores. In fact, they do not compare to the human gut.

Reptile guts are mostly a strait track and not convoluted. One method is measuring the lenght of the track compared to the lenght of the animals. Our gut is something like 37 feet. Say over six times our height. A tort gut is not twice its lenght. That does not indicate an obligate herbivore.

With that I will end with you, because you are the word you think of, you are arguementative without knowledge. Reading is not knowledge, unless its applied. You have applied nothing. Cheers
'

As I mentioned before...everyone has the right to their own opinion. I didn't start out insulting you or anyone...but you started it. Iguana and tortoises can digest plants better than rabbits, which is a strict herbivores. When you disect iguanas and tortoise you see their gut has chambers and pockets which slow down the food as it travel through the gut allowing for maximum digestion and absorbtion...just like how herbivore would. I have been reading work from people who actually do their homework and raise hundreds of iguanas and tortoises. Their tortoises still reproduce and lay eggs without them knowing. To their surprise some have found baby tortoises wondering around the pen. You didn't just got this information from anyone. I do check the author credibility and experience, some they teach in college when searching for informaion on the internet.

Well, I am sure you are very sucessful at keeping monitors, but I do disagree with you about herbivorous animals being fed animal protein. First I didn't want to insult anyone, but look at what has happened when I try to explain my opinion and view. This is the most confrontational forum I have ever seen. People are so rude and scarcastic.

Paradon, please help me understand what you disagree with regarding herbivors? Do you think Retes is lying? If that is the case, then ok, case closed. If not, how can you disagree with success, success that has been going on longer than you've been alive? Man that's reality, that's how it is...even if it doesnt fit into what you've read.

As far as the forum...just be happy you have access to some of the most experienced and succesful herpers in the world. That alone is priceless. The rest is irrelevent.

Tom

I tend to air on the side what medical journals have recorded and as far as I understand, most of the top tortoise breeders don't feed their animals animal protein. So I rather play it safe than sorry. Not feeding them animal protein doesn't do them any harm either. I've seen people on tortoise forum who just keep producing clutches after clutches of tortoises fed on the diet of purely plant matters whether they intend their tortoises to reproduce or not. That's my reasoning. I don't think they really need animal protein to thrive. And my dogs would eat the weirdest thing, too, something unatural. She would go over to the lemon tree and pick up the lemons that have fallen on the ground and eat the peels; then, she leaves the pulp to dry up in the sun, and then eat that after it's nice and crispy. She also eat some plastic before, apparently, but she pooped it out. Thank goodness! I've seen a dog who ate a rock...a big one...which needed to be surgically removed. If you watch "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic Channel, which I think everybody does, he said that putting the dog in captivity make them express certain curiosity and traits in a way we do not expect, such as, eating rocks, chasing it's on tail, and other abnormal behaviors, that a wolf wouldn't do in the wild. I think the same can be said about the sulcata tortoises eating mice and meat in captivity. Captivity is not the wild...even dogs do weird things in captivity; I'm sure many other animals do it, too, when we decide to put them captivity.

Tortoises are some species of lizard like monitors and iguanas are smarter than most people think. They do have personality; hence, that's why I think weird things they do in captivity is the same as why a dog would chase it's tail. They are smarter than most people give them credits for....

Quote: If you watch "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic Channel, which I think everybody does...

This made me laugh out loud. Why would 'everybody' watch "The Dog Whisperer"? WTF?

Also, you err (not air) on the side of caution or whatever your paragraph began with.

I hope he means the Southpark episode where the Dog Whisperer is in it training Cartman. That one was a classic!!!

I've seen a dog who ate a rock...a big one...which needed to be surgically removed. If you watch "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic Channel, which I think everybody does, he said that putting the dog in captivity make them express certain curiosity and traits in a way we do not expect, such as, eating rocks, chasing it's on tail, and other abnormal behaviors, that a wolf wouldn't do in the wild. I think the same can be said about the sulcata tortoises eating mice and meat in captivity. Captivity is not the wild...even dogs do weird things in captivity; I'm sure many other animals do it, too, when we decide to put them captivity.

Just an FYI....the 'Dog Whisperer' is one of the biggest JOKES of the real dog people's world. He is an embarrassment. Some TV program decided he was sellable....that is the only reason he is on tv. There are many, MANY more competent people than him. Kinda like Jon Katz's dog books....he is a journalist who fooled around with some dogs once and wrote about it.
As has been said to you several times......be careful who you believe.
You may not like Franks attitude....but if you do a little of your own research you will find that he is not lying and he knows what he is talking about 'cause he has actually done it....not studied it or talked about it......he is the expert.
Dogs have been domesticated so long there is not many 'wild' examples of them (not wolves- dogs are related to wolves like we are related to gorillas...I mean real wild dogs related ). Dogs have thousands of generations in domesticity. Monitors? Not so much....and of those generation numbers I would hazard a wild guess that Frank's monitors set the records.
-----
Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Humans have basically been the same since the paleolithic era and we have been consuming and adequately digesting raw plant matter ever since. In fact, several well known nutritionists have written that we would be better served to eat more raw plants and vegetable matter,as doing so would better regulate blood sugar levels, improve digestion, and lower choloesterol. To say that we don't have the GI to procees such material is just silly. Heck, I have a garden that allows me to go outside and eat a wide variety of raw plants and vegetables all season long, and I digest them just fine. I don't care what University did what study, but do deny that we don't have the ability to process these materials just lacks common sense.

Will

The majority of human knowledge is theory. We think we know so much, yet we're still just ignorant monkeys. Just because it was written in a book, people take it as fact. Perfect example is The Bible (excuse the religious tone here). A book written by man is exactly that- a product of man. Thusly, it has little bearing. Learn what the world has to teach you, not what man has to regurgitate.

As the smart ones will tell ya, its all about getting out there and doing, rather than sitting around talking/worrying/thinking/argueing about it. Go interact with some animals and stop reading so many books. The written word can only take you so far.

"If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!"
-Rudyard Kipling

Put the books down, go outside and learn something the way man was meant to learn. Someday youll be old and tired, and if all you have to look back on are books youve read, youre life will be a long, sad story in and of itself.

Bleh. I talk too much...

*wanders off to get bitten by a water snake*

If you take nutrition course in college, you will know that humans, although omnivores, are not design to digest some of the plant matter. Human evolve to eat carbohydrate type of food from plant like fruits and some roots.

But we eat raw greens and vegetables for fiber.

You just said we can't eat raw plant matter, and now you said that we do eat vegetables and greens (for fiber).

So what you're trying to tell us is that we only eat those for fiber? We don't benefit at all from them in any other ways (like nutrients and such...hence, why we would eat them).

I fail to see any of your point in any of this. We were talking about tortoises eating protein. If you don't like that, why don't you just sit back in your chair with a grin on your face and laugh at the thought of us coming back to you crying some day and saying we were wrong. It's not going to happen, but if it makes you sleep better at night, then that's good for you. Maybe you could try curling up in bed with another medical journal or scientific paper. Darn, you know, it's a funny thing about science. The word implies that it is a fact, yet historically science (and what is believed to be fact) changes all of the time.

I guess that would make you the person screaming that the world is still flat.

That's exactly what I said. We cannot digest vetables unless we cook them. WE are not hindgut fermentor like toroises, iguanas, cows and bison. I don't know if you understand that. LOL!

if I go and eat a leaf of dandelion greens (out of the reptile compartment of the refrigerator), I will not benefit from any of the nutrients with in, and further more, I will not poop that leaf out later?

Because personally, that's all I care about when I eat something. Again, it's real world type stuff that you fail to grasp. Maybe you should try eating a salad some time.

Yeah, you will poop it out whole, undigested. Have you wonder why when you eat a salad sometimes you a whole leaf floating in your toilet?

...well, never had THAT happen (chew better buddy!), but if youve eatten corn, you know what hes talkin about.

Nuff said there.

To tell you the truth, yeah, hes partially right I believe.

Im not sure, but i believe most green plant matter that humans consume is simply passed through the gut- you can eat that dandelion yeah, and yeah, you will poop most if not all of it out.... but it aint gonna look like no friggin dandelion. Exposure to acids, saliva and chewing will likely make it look like... well, poop.

Havent you ever eatten corn? lol

I'm not talking about what it looks like when it leaves. Are you saying that I gained absolutely nothing by chewing, swallowing, and passing vegetation? I'm really asking this, because I don't know (and that's what you do when you don't know something...you ask). I would have assumed though, that I would have gained something out of the whole ordeal, regardless of what the food looked like at the end of its journey.

No, the only thing that you will gain is fiber. You need to cook the vegetables first to soften the plant cell wall.

I just couldn't resist...

Bisons and cows aren't hindgut fermenters,sheep and deer aren't eather, they are foregut fermenters. Horses and rabbits are though. Better start reading again,LOL

By the way, foregut fermenters are even better at digesting high cellulose plants, like grass. This is where you go wrong, IMO,
People can't digest uncooked grass and such, but they can digest low cellulose plants just fine (lettuce,corn,andive, etc, etc)
How do you think al those models stay alive? All they eat are salads...

Bye, Jasper

buffalo and bison are mammals and iguanas/torts are reptiles...hahaha. i was banking you new that then i read all your post/logic and drew the conclusion #1 you like to "dig in" once you make an argument or #2 you are not too bright. i think a little of both maybe...hahaha j/k. at the end of the day a healthy/happy herp is what counts and you/we should simply provide what ensures that. you said you "read alot of papers"...i too have that handicap...read some technical work and then limit myself as it is gospel. that thinking has really caused me some grief at times. hopefully we all get smarter/open to rethinking as our hobby progresses. zak

Tort and iguanas are herbivorous reptiles! What's a matter? There are no herbivorous reptiles?

Ok, I really want to see the complete study(s) done for these medical journals you believe (you know, the ones that aren’t THEORY).

What was the population size? How many decades did the study last? What was the control process? What defined success or failure? What species were involved? What ambient temp ranges were used? Basking temps? Protein intake range vs. temp range compared with what health measurements? Growth rates? What life events were achieved?

Not theory as you say, not the results of an autopsy after the fact on a few animals or other such nonesense...what was the reality of their life? How many generations were produced for each control group? How did the clutch sizes differ?

C’mon, you must have a TON of information to believe it over what Frank is telling you. I mean you have someone that by all evidence I can find is truthful, factually accurate and highly successful (success meaning achieving basic life events over and over) over 4 decades with dozens and dozens of different herps telling you something different (still just theory though, right?). So I am assuming you MUST have stronger evidence / experience. Please share, thanks!

Tom

With other herp types, its a bit more challanging then with monitors. With monitors, there is no level of success. Take Savs, and not eating mice. There was no, as in no levels of success with what they said we were suppose to do. So increasing the temp range and feeding mice leads to success. Success verses absolutely no success is an easy judge(still many cannot do that)

With torts, they have worked our limited restricted levels of success. The animals grow slowly(lack of protien does that) They have limited reproductive rates(low potential rates) poor diet will do that, but they do have success. Same for colubrids, yet many keep them in sweater boxes at 82.798F and make them nest in a plastic box. While that works, ITS TORTURE for the animal. Good thing snakes are stupid and put up with that. Its a good thing torts are the ultimate survivor and put up with that too.

So teaching these fine folks is much harder then teaching monitor folks(wait, they do not learn either, as a (w)hole).

The problem for all areas of captive management is, its more based on failure, then success. Sadly that means, they do not understand how to judge success. They only think in a preventive mode. How to prevent all these bad things from happening. You know, things that DO NOT OCCUR with husbandry that promotes the good things. Sadly, preventive husbandry tends to prevent everything, the good and the bad.

Its mainly sad for the animals. REAL SAD. cheers

haha enough said...

After reading that I stopped as it doesn't matter what you said. You seem to be stuck in the old ways of the old days. That is fine for you I guess, but most of us if not all want to go beyond what those folks have done.

You see you mentioned how easy monitors are compared to the rest, you see I believe you have it backwards. Simply because your following the wrong advice.

Good luck to you but please keep the theories and talk about your experience. I hate theories.

In the context of regurgitating information read. Hes right if that knowledge is academic to the actual improvement of captive husbandry.

In otherwords, in a world of WORDs he has it going on. But then that is out of context to us. You know, those of us who actually keep them in a progressive manner, not a preventive manner.

So we see our animals do all sorts of things that come natural to them.

By the way, did you notice no one asked how much mice I feed to torts? or what else I feed them? heck no, they just go stupid and rant. Nor do they ask for results. They simply go stupid, because its different then what they think/read, but did not learn or test. Cheers

"By the way, did you notice no one asked how much mice I feed to torts? or what else I feed them? heck no, they just go stupid and rant. Nor do they ask for results. They simply go stupid, because its different then what they think/read, but did not learn or test."

Very very good point. That was one very simple, but great question that should have been asked first. Sooo, how often do you feed your male 19 year old sulcata monitor meat? =) Or any of your torts for that matter? Thanks.

hahahahahaha thanks, The sulcatta has had about 20 or so mice in 19 years, but did consume lots of monkey chow as a baby. A friend at woodlawn park zoo, rasied two sulcattas feeding only veggies and I raised two feeding monkey chow(high protien) The results were, his pyramided like crazy, mine did not. I normally feed excess mice to monitors, but when I do throw some the sulcattas, they attack it like it was candy.

The greeks, the hatchling I am raising up has pinkies chopped up in his salad, once or twice a week. The adults get chopped fuzzies in there salad a couple times a month. But if I run out of salad, then I feed them fuzzies, they have no problem with that. As of now, they are the biggest greeks I have seen. But I am naive, I have not seen other successfully kept greeks. Mostly imports.

After a two months the baby greek is over double its lengh and many times the mass. As Ryan says, I better be there with food as soon as the lites go on, or it gets upset. Also, I have not supplimented with anything. Cheers

the tortoises really let you know when they think you haven't fed them quick enough. Right now it's 11:30 AM, and I cringe at the thought of what I'm going to find when I get my butt downstairs to feed them. Usually by 9:30 they are tearing down heat lamps and rearranging their enclosures. Luckily I left the left-overs from yesterday in there...maybe they don't know the difference

A good friend has had living outdoors, and indoors now for over 15 years are gonna die from those baby turtles they eat, oh and yes those box turtles they corner and kill on rare occasion, the mice, chipmunks, birds, and other animals they eat every chance they get. By the way, frogs, toads, and a few snakes that moved too slow have been eaten and more than a few dead snakes, a few rabbits that were dead in their yard, that I know of also.
But when you said Melissa Kaplan was your source of info I knew why you were blinded from the truth. Notice she had problems with the animals living a few years. The average person who follows her husbandry advice on monitors even struglles to see one live beyond 3 months to a year, dont get me started on the iguana advice either.
Im sure there are others with long lived torts that can tell you how reality works.

15 is relatively young for tort; they can live 55-100 years, and they are pretty much more adaptable comapred to iguana, so it might take more time for them to show any bad reaction from an improper diet.

I think you know nothing about animals, period. What you say sounds more like excuses and all such poop.

That you even bring up one type is more adaptable then another is silly. You must have missed the that reptiles are not adaptable, their abilities are consistant they cannot change to fit a different set of conditions(not in the short term, days, weeks, months, years) And they cannot change their enviornment.

What you are is academic. that is, what you think does not matter. You do not work with animals, you work with words and paper. I/we, work with animals and no offense, mine are doing great.

That you dwell on 55 years and such is odd, my 19 years is more then enough time to kill it off if my husbandry was not suitable. IF high protien and eating mice was going to kill it, it would have. The real problem is, so many that follow those restrictive CARESHEETS, tend to kill off their charges in less then a year. So our fella and his mate and the many offspring are PROOF and results that what we are doing is not killing them, and is doing something suitable. Cheers and get a life.

What you fail to understand is herbivorores can survive without animal protein...even thrive. Their digestive tract have evolved to digest tough plants material so they extract every nutrient available. Maybe it's hard for you to believe that their is herbivorous reptiles and that you don't understand how herbivores digest their food. For example, bisons and cape buffalos grow big and strong just by eating grasses. Plants are considerably lower in nutrients but they do have calcium, protein, and other vitamins and minerals, and these animals can extract every last bit of it from the food they eat. In the wild and captivity they reproduce just fine without animal protein when fed appropreat plants. I've known people on the turtle forum from Europe that reproduce their tortoises with excellent result with just herbivorous...I guess you haven't heard...Europeans tend to produce animals that Americans can't produce very well captivity. Their husbandry tends to reflect what animals tend to do in the wild and how they express it.

It would be nice if you actually did something yourself or saw it yourself, instead of spouting off someone else's "results". If their results prove to be false, you look like a moron too, because you tried to spread their gospel without any experience whatsoever.

Science seems to always be changing as we learn new things, so the longer you read and blabber about old news, the rest of the world will be sitting laughing at you while you read and read and read and read, but still do nothing. Open your mind! Or screw it, be a mime and live in a box for the rest of your life. Although I have nothing against mimes, except they pretend to be stuck when they aren't!

How do you expect to learn being so narrowminded? Have you tried doing what you preach against? You should.

The reason I don't breed reptiles is because I don't have much money right now, and I live with my parents. I've seen pictures from Eurpean breeders and tortoises reproduce like crazy without the need for animal protein.

With this subject, many as I have explained have had such things as torts, iggies, etc. Eat lots of animal protien, with no problems. Yes, there are also those that have fed animals protien and had problems. A thinking person would wonder, why did some have problems and some did not.

Again simple math. If A fed animal protien, and had problems, and B did not have problems feeding animal protien. The the answer to what is causing the problem is not A or B, but some other variable. This is very common with keeping reptiles. Cheers

You have no real experience with what you're talking about. If anyone is listening to you, I advise them to stop immediately (except for the entertainment value) as you have nothing to add to our discussion.

You think we don't have the ability to read? Anyone can do what you're doing. Anyone with a grammar school education can read a couple of documents and (mis)interpret them as you have done. It takes some intelligence, and experience to do what these other fine people are doing. maybe if you slow down for a second, you might learn a thing or two.

P.S. You remind me of myself before I grew a brain and started listening to the right people, and more importantly, trying things for myself instead of regurgitating information.

This is wrong for torts as its wrong for any vegetarian lizards, non are exclusive vegetarians.
Hears a handful of natural sulcata food, when nature blooms these proteins allow egg production.

I am not failing, you are. PLain and simple.

Man makes all sort of boxes in order to understand something. Then smaller boxes. The problem is, while the subject may be loosely described by those boxes, surely they(the subject) are not contained by them.

Your terms like herbivore are generalizations, not a rule. As is nocturnal, or diural, or even ectotherm. They all contain some degree of discriptive value, but they are not accurate in the understanding of the living working animal.

Again, your understanding of animals appears academic as you do not apply anything you say/read/think/believe. On the otherhand, I and others here practice applied husbandry. That means we DO IT. We apply it, we experience the results. WE DO NOT PREDICT results, like you seem to(or think of results). We incure actual results. You incure zippo, nada, nothing. You read and agree or not. Which is totally meaningless in a applied understanding.

So while you live in a paper world of terms, we live is a world where the animals are continiously changing and they express real results.

So I say, PLEASE do not keep reptiles, they and I will thank you for it.

You should consider that I as well as others were exposed to the same literature you are. THe problem was, we experienced real life. Like one day, I found a redfoot tort loose in the forest, funny thing was, it was butted up to a box turtle. I then pulled them apart and dang if the redfoot was consuming the box turtle. Sir that was one instance of many that broke the written rules. I have seen so many dirual reptiles active at night and nocturanl reptiles active in the day and insectivorious lizards eating flowers, etc. After a while those rules start to lose their meaning.

So yes, I was indeed prejudiced by realtime living reptiles, both in nature and in captivity. They indeed put what your reading in place. ITs nice to read, but don't let in ruin your understanding of the subject, the reptiles.

I think you are confused. You think the written word is the subject and the animals must follow it. THEY DON'T and neither do I. The animals are the subject, the written word is discriptive to various degrees, but never totally accurate. Cheers

Um, I don't know if you know, but redfoot and yellowfoot tortoises are omniovres unlike other tortoises. Anyway, have you ever disect iguanas and tortoises to look at digestive tract? They are hindgut fermentor, which means they have stomach and chamber gut very much like cows and sheep, which are design to breakdown tough plant matters to extract every nutrient from them, which is why animal protein is not appropreat food.

that different. What your missing is, our torts EAT PLANTS, no problem. THEY ALSO EAT MICE, WITH NO PROBLEMS. If they could not digest meat, that would should up VERY QUICKLY. THAT IS A MEDICAL FACT. IF they could not digest mice, they would throw them up, or pass them undigested and in either case that would be noticable.

But any discussion with you is academic, just like what you like to read. As you have no base to understand living books, the animals themselves. As in, you have proven(verbally) to be idiotic in this area. For that I am sad. I do wish you well and hope life is kind to you. Cheers

I DID NOT SAY THEY CAN'T DIGEST ANIMAL PROTEIN! Perhaps you need to brush up on your reading skill. I said they digest the food they eat so well that rich food like animal protein overwhelm their kidneys and liver with purine that it will eventually kill them.

I think that the point FR is trying to get across is that he has been feeding "deadly" animal protein for 19 years, and I would bet that his animals are just as healthy (or healthier) as the ones you speak of in Europe. If there was going to be problems, they would have shown up a long time ago.

You, my friend, need to start listening to the animals themselves, rather than some dumb books or papers. Really, exactly why would a paper tell you more or smarter information than the animal itself?

I believe that people have been telling FR that his animals would die from the very beginning. As he has said, he is waiting, still waiting.

Cheers,
Ryan
-----
There are three kinds of people in this world: people who can count and people who can't.

Are still waiting for the torts(iggies, etc) overwelmed, after forty some odd years, how much longer do I have to wait??? I want an answer, how much longer do I have to wait? Seriously, if its going to be longer then I have left to live, then screw it, I'am feeding them mice as well as greens. Also if it takes more then a grip of generations, again I say screw it. Cheers

It typically takes about 5 years, from hatchling, for iguana to show sign of kidney and liver failure. For torts it may take longer, but it's all the same.

Paradon my apologies for arguing with you, clearly Iv mistaken you for some inexperienced kid, now I realise my mistake and will follow your advising from now on.

This will probably anger my supplier who’s been selling my sulcata and leopards hatchlings these past 14 years, but hey my torts health are at stake here, surly he will understand.

I will not risk liver-kidney damage on my babies, no sir!

Thank you very much for saving my neck, dang I had no idea what I was doing, the worst is I have tones of books and documents written by the best of the best tort specialist, why on earth have I listened to them stupid torts? Surly these specialist are far more intelligent and educated then my dumb torts.

Dude, just use common freaking sense here.

Wild animals are going to eat whats available- what do slow moving torts, strictly "herbivorous", eat when the droughts come and all vegetation dies? Do they migrate a few hundred miles to greener pastures? No, they make use of what theyve already eatten and go looking for alternate food sources.

They do what they must to survive. Basically, instead of thinking of your tort as a classic "tortoise", think of it as what it is: a big-ass land turtle.

And what do turtles eat?

Well, if youve dealt with turtles, you know the answer to that is another question: What WONT turtles eat? Christ, Ive seen turtles eat everything from frogs to strawberries, earthworms to guppies, rose pettles to pumpkin flesh- basically, they eat whats they can get.

Now, granted, torts are rather different. But still, wouldnt you think that they would be at least SOMEWHAT omnivorous? I mean, hell, if you can show me an animal that feeds on only one type of food, Ill be surprised.

Pretty much all animals are omnivorous- they eat what they get. As the fellow before said, if you offered your tort commercial dog food or monkey chow everyday, yeah, youd prolly mess him up quite nicely.

But how can you not see that in small doses it is beneficial? Most animals dont get ALL their nutritional needs from just one source, because theres very few creatures on the planet that serve as a good long term food source by themselves.

Savannah monitors eat dandelions and tegus eat raw onions.

Cave salamanders in the Ozarks have been found to consume bat feces as a means of staying alive- was that their original food source?
No, they learned that it had something beneficial to them, or they wouldnt eat it. Is it a good overall food source?
No, thats why the salamanders back it up with small inverts/anthropods.

Hell, grazing herbivores like cows and bison HAVE been known to consume dead herdmates. Not to mention, reality check here:

You ever mowed your lawn with a bag mower? Ever seen ALL the bugs that leap out of the way of the mower as it comes towards them?
You ever looked in the bag? If so, you would see thousands of little grass dwelling insects, and there would be far more that you wouldnt see.

Now imagine a herd of bison or cows grazing... dosnt it seem obvious that they would consume quite a bit of insect matter over time? prolly never enough in a single sitting to really constitute a large portion of their diet, yet still a beneficial addition to what they normally consume.

Simple! Herbivorous animals eat plants that's why they become herbivorous because plants are often more available than consuming other animals. You practically live among the food you eat. The sloths and iguanas spends most of it's life in the tree...constently around their food source. There is another major advantage of eating plants, they don't have to spend their energy hunting for food. Tortoises are design to withstands months of femine, so they can go a months without eating and wait until new grasses grow, or zebras and antelopes migrate to different area. Incase you don't monitor are completely carnivorous.

But why would they?

Why would a tortoise starve itself when theres a dead hippo animal nearby, brimming with easily accessible nutritional value? They arent going to stuff themselves, but what makes you think they wont take a nibble?

Common sense man.

They just won't because they are herbivores. You wouldn't see a monitor eat plants when it's starving with apparently leafs adn grasses all around, would you? Maybe only in captive situation where people keep them in cages instead of thousands of acres of land they would roam in the wild. Common sense, you say?

Two completely wild tegus in south america ate raw onions (among other things) from the campsite of some hikers (I can get the page, issue and paragraph from Reptiles magazine that speaks about it, if required). Was nothing forcing them, they were in fine health, but they liked it so they ate it and continued to eat it throughout the time the hikers were there.

Savannah monitors IN THE WILD have been known to eat fallen fruit, as well as various flowers.

Theres a primarily herbivorous species of monitor lizard- the Bhutan (sp?) that lives in the South Pacific. It feeds off certain types of fruit, but also consumes animal protein.

Monitors, like most animals, take what nature provides- they dont fit themselves strictly to a certain type of food, because if said food suddenly is in short supply, then they are, as Darwin would say, Dodo'd.

Yes lad, common friggin sense. Now PLEASE, stop responding. You arent gonna win this arguement, and in about 2 seconds im gonna walk the hell away from this, cause its just so retarded I cant even begin to comprehend why I got involved in the first place.

Tegus are more omniovorous than strictly carnivorous...kindda like bears...although bears do eat berries and grasses, they are classified as carnivores. I would imagine the same is true for Tegus.

....or torts? lol

Ruminants have completely different digestive tracts vs. other "herbivores". They have large chambers that let enteric bacteria "flora" digest the cellulose. All "herbivores" DO have a longer intestinal tract vs. a "carnivore". That is basic information and it's the lack of efficiency of digesting plant material that necessitates this - it's actually NOT efficient at all.

If you watch animals, the ones pigeon-holed as strict "herbivores" are usually eating smaller amounts of animal/insect matter (especially as they are younger and growing) along with that plant matter. The terms are not as strict as you are lead to believe in your readings. Now if you feed an adult iguana monkey chow every day...yes, he will likely suffer from kidney overload and gouty symptoms (also from dehydration as people don't keep them humid enough commonly). But occasional feedings of animal matter don't hurt your herbivores and it's likely beneficial as they are growing. Just because a guy did a gut flush in the field-one time 27 years ago and only found plant matter-doesn't make it gospel. You have to use readings as a tool, not an exact blueprint.

Europeans so sucessful, and here our keepers are not? After all its so funny that in Europe they can obtain WC animals that we cannot (from our own laws), yet they are constantly trying to buy them from our pitiful unsucessful breeders.
As far as those torts, the results you speak of came from keepers and so called experts who killed them off in no time at all.
By the way those torts are still to this day in the keepers collection in another location, along with all of the turtles (land and water) that never stopped laying eggs from spring through the end of summer and sometimes into fall. The reference I gave you was from over 4 years ago, they are around 20 or more now. Where are your old torts, or do you rely on Melissa Kaplan to tell you what reality is?

I get the feeling the reason the person you spoke of thinks the monitor is so much easier and cheaper to care for is because he doesn't know how to keep his animals correctly.

Have you ever wondered why people that keep their animals the way you say is 'correct' still experience problems with parasites and renal failure? It's because it's not a successful method of keeping reptiles. I did things 'by-the-book' (according to the forums and care sheets off of Kaplan's site) and ended up with two lizards experiencing renal failure towards what most people say should be the end of their lives (beardie was about 6-7, and the uro was a rescue, and from the information I was able to obtain she was imported as an adult in the early 1990's). Then ask yourself why it is that the symptoms of renal failure (evident in blood tests) disappeared for both of these reptiles once I started keeping them as people like FR, Shvar, Jobi, and Robyn said to keep them. They're both still alive, years after they were 'supposed to' die (according to the initial blood samples), they have much higher basking temperatures, dirt substrate, eat more protein, and act like young, inquisitive reptiles. The rescued uro even laid a clutch of 14 eggs a couple months ago (infertile, of course...I never bred her).

If you keep tortoises correctly, they cost nothing to keep. If you live an area where you can keep them outdoors, you don't have to pay for anything except the initial cost of the pen, and if you're like me and keep them indoors, all you need is a cattle trough with a plexi lid, a few hundred pounds of dirt, and some halogen flood bulbs. Oh, and food, but the base diet is extremely cheap (compared to monitors). If you know how to sweet-talk your local markets, most of their staple food is free anyhow. Food for large monitors is much more expensive.

BTW: Good thing you took the time to ask FR about the amount of protein he feeds his tortoises. It would have been a real shame if you had jumped to conclusions.

Hello Paradon,
You are pretty well spoken with knowledge that you yourself did not produce from experience hence, all of the inaccuracy. You do not keep the animals therefore you do not know. And as for the person who stated that the iguanas and tortoises cost more to keep than the monitors, dogs and cats...- He/She does not care for their dogs, cats or monitors properly or their information is grossly flawed and should be discarded... Best to you- Mike

I give my sulcatta mostly grass and weeds. But sometimes I give vegetables. And sometimes fruit. And to be honest, I usually go around all my cages and take out all food that isn't eaten and throw it to my sulcatta. Man, throw in a pile of raw ground turkey and see what happens.