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Can I get some opinions on what you guys consider the best brumation techniques & temps for TPR's? Is 50-55 degrees acceptable & is a refrigerator an adequate means? Thanks in advance!
Dan

>>Can I get some opinions on what you guys consider the best brumation techniques & temps for TPR's? Is 50-55 degrees acceptable & is a refrigerator an adequate means? Thanks in advance!
>>Dan

Dan,

You'll want the air to be free-moving and dry, whatever it takes to get it that way. You don't want it to be stagnant and humid, whatever you do. Winter air outside is naturally drier than spring/summer air. Personally I wouldn't use a refrigerator for that reason. Pneumonia and RI is the most common reason subocs are taken to the vet.
An air-conditioner drys the air inside while it is on. In Utah, I only have to crack the window and close the heater vent, but in Florida, you'll probably have to use an A/C. Talk to Mike Falcon. He breeds subocs pretty consistently in Florida.
50 - 60 F is the preferred range for them...I've never had a problem.
After you brumate them, don't put heat on the males. They can go sterile if they have undertank heating. Good luck.

DR
Suboc.com

If I might interject one more thing, cool them down slowly. If you are starting at 80F and going down to 58F, the process should take about 12 days. It should take just as long to warm them up just to be on the safe side.

>>If I might interject one more thing, cool them down slowly. If you are starting at 80F and going down to 58F, the process should take about 12 days. It should take just as long to warm them up just to be on the safe side.

I agree with that first part. But not completely with warming them back up slowly. I've talked to a lot of guys who have lost subocs right after spring warm up. The danger with doing that in captivity is that illness issues, if developed during brumation, are usually quite toned down and nearly masked because of the slower metabolism of the snake, therefore very difficult to detect during brumation. If there is an existing illness issue with a snake (whether noticed by the keeper or not), its better to get the ambient temps up to safe levels faster...levels that will help fight an infection such as pneumonia, etc. Doing it slowly will only give the illness more of a fighting chance to defeat the snake's immune system and kill it.

I personally warm mine up faster...at least twice as fast as I cool them, if not more. It's quite abrupt. Even with the warmer temps, most of my males don't emerge from their hibernacula for at least 10-14 days. My females that have laid eggs before are usually the first to eat food.

Dusty
Suboc.com

There is one little flaw in that logic. If the snake has an infection, cooling down the snake and slowing its metabolism also slows down the metabolism of the infecting organism and therefore the rate at which the infection will progress. The reason to warm them up slowly is the same reason you cool them down slowly, to avoid shocking the animals system, which does affect its immune system.

I am sure that you haven't lost any animals yet doing it your way, but I can also claim that I haven't lost any animals doing it my way. I think animals do best when kept as close to natural conditions as possible.

>>There is one little flaw in that logic. If the snake has an infection, cooling down the snake and slowing its metabolism also slows down the metabolism of the infecting organism and therefore the rate at which the infection will progress. The reason to warm them up slowly is the same reason you cool them down slowly, to avoid shocking the animals system, which does affect its immune system.
>>
>>I am sure that you haven't lost any animals yet doing it your way, but I can also claim that I haven't lost any animals doing it my way. I think animals do best when kept as close to natural conditions as possible.

That's fine. They're are a million ways to skin a cat in this hobby, but I'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You say that you haven't lost any animals doing it your way which is fantastic and I applaud you, but I have talked to people who have. There's also a flaw with your statement, or two flaws actually...#1) the infection will not necessarily slow down if the temperature slows down. There are 1000s of types of microbes and spores which cause RI, including bacterial, viral, and fungal. Many of these thrive when temperatures are low and the snake's metabolism is down. #2) The other flaw is that one thing is left out of that statement, and that is that the immune system of the snake is weakened and less optimal when temperatures are low.

I've never read anything from a conducted study or qualified vet saying that it was needful to do it either way - abrupt or prolonged. But as far as I can tell, there is no proof that warming them up in captivity over a period of a week or less is shocking their systems. We do know that snakes need to be at a certain temperature to fight off infections and to metabolize properly. We also know that brumation is hard on captive snakes, whether ended abruptly or prolonged. I keep a lot of subocs (around 50) and as I've talked to people while researching for my suboc book, including herp vets, most of the deaths that occur happen just after warm up. Why would that be? I argue that an infection ensued during brumation that was not detected becuase temperatures weren't right, ventilation wasn't right, etc., and the owner never interacted with the snake, as is usual for most keepers during that time.

Yes, it is important to duplicate nature where possible. But in nature, a snake has literally hundreds of habitats and microhabitats to choose from as to where it will spend the brumal period (which is about 6 months in the wild - not the usual 2 - 3 in captivity). (And I don't know of anyone who would attempt to 'duplicate nature' in that regard.) Multiply that by the variety of gradients in EACH and every microhabitat, and the choices are almost limitless. It knows what it needs at every given moment better than what we do, and it adjusts itself according to its needs and according to the greater variety of choices available to them. The draftiness, stuffyness, dampness, dryness, safety, substrate type, darkness, light, and temperature, etc are all chosen by that snake in the wild. And what choices do we give the snake to choose from in captivity? Almost paralyzingly limited choices. Aspen or moss, the same temperature throughout the entire cage, the same draftiness, the same stuffyness. No choices.

As Dr. Rossi said in his "Western Half of the U.S." book, pneumonia is the number one reason for a trip to the vet for a suboc. Rossi also states in his "What's wrong with my snake?" book in the chapter on Respiratory Infections, "a viral infection may respond to increased environmental heat, as this will stimulate the snake's immune system" (pg. 114).
It's hardly worth saying, but if a brumating suboc has caught pneumonia (again, the #1 disease for captive subocs), it probably won't be detected until it becomes septic and too late...the visual symptoms will be slowed and prolonged, but not the rate of infection nor the snake's immune system's weakening; if a brumating suboc has caught pneumonia, then it will be crucial to act fast and get the snake's immune system up and running.
The reason, I feel, that the suboc dies right out of brumation is that it's immune system was weakened and weakened to the point that, once the snake was warmed, the snake no longer had a leg to stand on, and the same symptoms that would have been the same if the snake had a fighting chance are now taking over an immunity-weakened snake, and it dies. Though death was prolonged, it was given a more sure foundation by weaking the immune system of the snake.

On the same page, Dr. Rossi states, "environemntal correction and supplemental heat are always indicated as the first steps in treating a suspected respiratory infection".

This may be an argument of semantics, in part. Of course, it is necessary to attempt to duplicate natural conditions where useful...but NOT when harmful in captivity. Just like there would be many more deaths if everyone tried to brumate their subocs for 6 -7 months.

I'm just trying to help those who want to do well with the species, because they're an awesome snake and the people who keep them are likewise awesome. And I feel that I've worked hard to really "crack the code" with them, though I have plenty left to learn.
Suboc.com

One last point...

I think there is something to be said for the fact that most "longevity records" of captive reptiles occur in zoos, where they are displayed for years in a big natural vivarium and never (or rarely, if ever) brumated.

Isn't the air in a fridge or wine cooler "dry"? What's wrong with that? TOO dry??

>>Isn't the air in a fridge or wine cooler "dry"? What's wrong with that? TOO dry??

I don't know, (and I may be wrong) but the air isn't usually moving/exchanging inside of a fridge (as far as I know), and that's where problems can occur. There are bacteria that thrive in stagnant cold air, and there are other types of bacteria that thrive in stagnant warm air. As long as you have the air as free-moving, fresh, and as dry or drier than the air that you yourself are breathing, then you should be okay. I know I can walk into a snakeroom and test the air myself at any time, but how do you try out the air inside a fridge without getting in there yourself? My rule is that if it's good enough for me, it's good enough for them.

Anyone who has kept snakes in a rack has smelt something bad when they opened the rack tub that they didnt smell when they walked in the room. That would be an example of trapped, stagnant, germ-laden air...which would cause septicemia, which is the #1 killer of subocs.

Dr. John Rossi D.V.M. said that the #1 reason why experienced snake keepers lose snakes is due to inadequate ventilation (e.g. because experienced keepers usually keep stuff in racks, which is tougher to ventilate than a 10 gallon aquarium w/ a screen top - where most beginners keep snakes). If you don't have a room where you can brumate them at those temps, then I would suggest you find someone else who you trust to brumate them at their house for you. I used to do that when I got started when living in Texas in a one-bedroom apartment.

If you want to try the fridge, go ahead - but I wouldn't trust it.

DR
Suboc.com

Thanks for the input, guys. Needless to say, I'll have ample reason to be nervous for this expensive brood when Fall rolls around.
Dan

option 3
My subocs "freerange" in my snake room in winter during brumation. My reason for this is twofold, I have very high humidity and temps yearlong in Corpus Christi, Texas, with only 6 weeks or so of really bad temps. I have an a/c going 24/7 and only cool the room to 60, to off set the really cold weeks. Also they have a very wide choice of hibernaculums within the hibernaculum to choose from. I think they find a spot to their liking and go there. I can open a drawer on one of the dressers in the room and consistently find the big male there, I look in the stacked boxes in the opposite corner of the room and find the other male there, closer to the a/c. The female stays in her container all winter. In spring everyone goes back to their containers. Sounds weird and if yu don't have a room designated, it obviously won't work for you. Bringing an animal from low humidity to a high humidity enviro scared me a bit so I decided to let them tell me what they wanted to do. Just another option.
Todd Hughes

Todd,

I gotta tell ya. That's definitely creative. I mean, as long as it's escape-proof and everybody's happy...then why not?

Do they still have access to their cages if they want? What about water?

Nice post. (You're not pulling our leg, are ya?)

Dusty

Nah, I lock 'em out! There are 4 water bowls of various sizes in each corner of the room and a small potted plant saucer in the drawer space in the dressers. I have seen big boy drink from the saucer and one corner bowl but the Brewster male I have never seen drink, although he must have sampled from one of the sources. Escape proof is the key, one room, one door with a double sweep and one sealed window with a/c unit. I believe the climbing does them a world of good. I am in the process of turning an old entertainment center into a "rock cut" style showcase with actual pieces from their original habitat. There are many downed rock "slices" at the bottom of the cuts, with a few cacti and a small water source. Several levels of hides are purposed and this thing will be heavy, no doubt! May not see them much, but I think it will do them good.
Todd Hughes

Reckon I'm just gonna have to get creative. The guys at Peace River Herps just AC an entire room down to temps. Maybe I can adapt a walk-in closet.
At any rate, I'll table the refrigerator idea. Thanks, guys, for your good input.
Dan.