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Was hoping someone could answer a question I had regarding these king/corn hybrids. I was reading about rat snakes and what gives them their excellent climbing ability is that they possess 50 more vertebrae than terrestrial snakes (e.g., common kings). [Note: I'm not sure the exact number was 50, as I don't have the book in front of me]. SO:

How does that affect the hybrids themselves? Do any odd traits or kinks develop from the conflicting number of vertebrae from the two different species?

Thanks!

I'm curious as to the anal plate on jungle corns - single, divided, some of each?
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 19 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

really isn't what makes the ratsnakes superior climbers, it's their cross-sectioned body shape.

If you took a cross-section of a ratsnake's body, you would see it is shaped like a "loaf" of bread!.....it is semi-rounded on top, with flat sides, and the belly(caudal) scales are flat on the bottom with square edges. In addition to this, just above the square edge on the side of the ratsnakes the tissue is VERY loose and muscular, gripping irregular objects like tree bark, etc...with great ease.

Kingsnakes, and other terestrial snakes, are more shaped like a "cylinder", or "tube", making them much less efficient climbers.

Also, hybrids would tend to have an intermediate amount of vertebrae, depending how much "gene-flow" of either species the snake had of either parent.

I'm not sure as to the exact count of either though.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Not a guess. But a fact. Of the thousands of ratxking or Rat X Milk hybrids I have seen, none of them had kinks.

I don't know for sure what causes kinks. There is a lot of debate on that. But I do not think kinks has anything to do with inbreeding like many people here do nor do I beleive it is a trait that is passed down from one gen to another. So that only leaves incubation or could be diet related (low calcium or phospherous)to the female snake.

Leucistic texas rat x pacific Gopher

Corn x pueblins

F1 cornduran (honduran milk x cornsnake) original 50/50%. This my original breeder. The very first corn x honduran ever:

these are 25% honduran and 75% corn. A result of breeding a 50/505 cornduran to a corn.


[img]http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={94113BBE-95CE-4C80-B988-A0B53D9A6314}&exp=f&moddt=38671.0004074884&ssdyn=1[img]

These are my favorite hybrids I have ever produced because of disposition and gentle character. They are smart to.
They are not only my favorite "rat: cross hybrids but my overall favorite HYBRIDS period.....Speckled king X Albino yellow rat.

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

OK, I've seen some strikingly beautiful snakes in my day, but 'Jus DAYUM!!!!'

I hereby bow to BlueRosey for producing some of the most beautiful animals I've ever seen, love them ALL. Many are not pleased with Hybrids, but, one can not deny the beauty of these.

I just hope that when I get to the point I can begin breeding, that I do as well. Kudos!!

...to that definitely supports Rainer's post. (at least in my exp. w/ kinks)
The only time I have ever had "kinks" in my babies (I don't breed hybrids though)was when I had a bad incubation spike for days while I was gone.. The temps were well up to the 92-94F range for several days one year. The only clutch I had in that box was L.g.nigrita and they all hatched way too soon and with very bad kinks....
The last year I used any artificial incubation heat I can tell you...
Now for sure there are arguements (pro and con) concerning hybrids but I don't think there's much, if any, real evidence of neonatal problems (at least in colubrids?)as a result of those breedings, is there?
In fact I seem to be of a notion that quite the opposite is often true...a.k.a. "hybrid vigor"

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I think the whole hybrid vigor thing is overrated. I have had hybrids with unusual fat deposits even though I did not feed them much and they were skinny by all "normal" accounts with their bones sticking out. These traits do show up when crossing certain new species to each other and I usually despose of them and never repeat that breeding again. I have also had snakes that just did not want to eat much and were to skinny and overall weak. Experimnts are done with breeding to see what species go together better than others. Some come out like super snakes and then other hybrid crosses don't.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

...you'd certainly know. I have no exp. with them and it shows.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I have been thinking about that term "hybrid vigor". I think it might actually refer to the geneticist's definition of hybrid, which means essentially "the crossing of two unrelated lines". So it can be applied to breeding both two unrelated snakes of the same species and to the crossing of two separate species.

Also I read a long time ago, I think it was in the original AVS series Corn Snake Manual, that there are frequently problems with breeding pituophisXcorns. I have also heard that Bateaters(burmXretic I think) are frequently infertile. Obviously there are alot of hybrids that are perfectly healthy too.

Where the term comes from - every gene pair has one gene from each parent. Very often defective genes are recessive - as recessive genes can hide from natural selection in heterozygous gene pair and be passed on, where dominant genes can not.

When you breed two species, some defective genes from each parent may be passed on, but since the species have split some time ago, there is a really reduced chance that the same defective gene exists in both species.

This is only the case with F1 hybrids. F2 hybrids, especially line bred, do not have the same protection against a homozygous defective gene pair.

This is the same reason why outcrossing lines of same species reduces the expression of defective genes. F1 of my WC cal king and an amel cal king, none of the neonates express the defective gene responsible for amel albinism - but line breed them to produce F2 and 1/4 of the young will in fact express that defective gene.

But if I take those F1 and cross them with, say, scissor crossing - none of the young will express the amel gene, and only half of the young would carry the gene meaning any line bred pairing from that outcross only has a 25% chance that both carry the defective gene, so there's a real good chance such a pairing would not produce any that express the defective amel gene (though it may be present in some of the young).

I have to wonder if some of the reported fertility problems in several generation hybrids are actually the result of line breeding rather than the hybrid process, and if every 3 generations or so - getting unrelated but same hybrid mates would result in better fertility.

But the "hybrid vigor" effect doesn't guarantee better young, as there may be some gene pairs that just don't work the way they are suppose to. It took many attempts at Bison and Cattle before they could get Beefalo produced that were not sterile.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 19 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

You know, there are enough hybrids out there now to get some serious data on this question. We can understand the need for data collection here cant we? I think with the honesty of hybrid breeders we can collectively associate some serious science! I know counting vertebrae means that there are dead snakes out there, but lets not them pass in vain.
From this data we can determine which species is more dominant. Objective vs subjective will always be an arguement, but gene flow and heritability are always good subjects no matter what side of the fence you are on. All we need now is a data bank....

I guess you must not be talking about Pyros(are kingsnakes), as they are excellent climbers and are found often in trees, as well as rock faces.

Also crossing usually brings a blend of the two types. So I guess maybe the hybrids would have 25 more then one parent and 25 less then the other. Good thing they did not have an odd number more. Cheers

I invented the pyro
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Are the king-rat hybrids fertile? Also, does a king-rat hybrid consume other snakes? Are they immune to rattlesnakes? What character traits of the species are dominant? do the king-rats like to climb or are they terrestrial? I think this make interesting questions.

Also, in the kingsnake classified, do you think a hybrid category be a good idea?