Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a black rat that I have had for just over a year. She has been a decent "pet" but I think she is much older than I think. She is only going to the bathroom about every 6 weeks. She has been eating just fine accept for the last 2 weeks (gravid) and she did have a protozoan infection which I believe has cleared up now. The problem is that I no longer have the space for her and am hoping to move her out after she has laid eggs... I can't seem to find anybody who wants her or can give her proper care. I can't really keep her any longer and was concidering just releasing her in a secluded wood. If I give her a few good meals after dropping her eggs should she be fine?

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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

I am not going to tell you what to do, but I will give you a few things to consider:

1) If one takes an animal from the wild and turns it into a pet, isn't that person now responsible for that animal for the rest of its natural life?

2) Will releasing that snake now into the wild give the snake a fair chance at survival?

3) Could this animal now be a carrier of an exotic microbe that might infect other animals living in that area?

4) If you can keep her offspring, why can't you keep her?

5) Is she truly native to that area? Was she found within 50 miles of there? Could you be introducing exotic genes into the area?

All of those points are right on, especially the first one. It's no different than buying a snake at a petshop.

IMHO your only options are to keep it, find a home for it, or euthanize it. Hopefully you don't have to resort to the last one.

...
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I am not keeping the babies. They are all accounted for. I suppose that I should have written this in my first post but she was more of a road rescue that someone brought to me. And yes she was found probably 20 miles from my home. I never said that I "wanted" to release her. I just can't find a decent home for her. I want her to remain a pet to someone I just can't keep her any longer. I kept her and healed her bites/infections so she has a better chance than she did have. I do not want to release her but again nobody wants to take in an old sometimes grumpy snake.....
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

I will add two more points to what Elaphefan said.

1) Studies of relocated rattlesnakes show that they can be moved away from their original home range and never quite acclimate to their new area. Radiotracked specimens tend to be on the move constantly, are underweight when caught for re-measure and are often found dead.

2) In some areas it is illegal to capture a wild animal for any period of time and re-release it. I used to live in a state where I was asked by State Fish and Game to talk to a lady who would rescue box turtles and then release them, sometimes hundreds of miles away from where the particular subspecies was even found. They had talked to her repeatedly and thought I should try as a last resort before they pressed charges.

But to the point, it was illegal in this state and this guy told me that it was technically illegal in other states and that even more states had contacted them in regards to drafting their own law. I don't know exactly how common this law is, however.

My opinion is that you do not release the snake under any circumstances.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Malaysian locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

I may be misremembering but wasn't release of a captive california desert tortoise the primary suspect as the source of the respiratory bug that decimated their wild populations? If I remeber correctly that was what I was always told was how they ended up in the endangered perdicament they are currently in.

As I said I may be misremembering, please correct me if so.

Sean.

PS have you talked to black rat breeders, herp clubs, and teachers in your area who might want one for the classroom? On the teacher note Montessori classrooms are supposed to, if possible, have a pet/classroom example of each major type of animals in it so most of them will either keep snakes or lizards for the reptile exposure.

Aaaah! I see. Didn't think of the disease potential, and of course I would never release any of my captives without first checking the legalities of it. Think I may try to obtain a pair anyway just to have and appreciate

What did you have to do to obtain permits to keep them,

Well I didn't do anything special, well maybe a little:: I just purchased them and when I renewed my permit put them on there, the guy from the state did say they won't be available for long for permitting, best to permit soon. Also if you call F&G permit division, a girl named Monica will be happy to answer that question, I have not seen anything in writing stating that claim (unable to permit) but I am sure Monica could clear this up for you, rumor for years was you count not keep them, then I was thinking they are not endangered they are threatened, so I called and they said its ok as long as they are not wild collected , have a receipt to prove legal acquisition , they can only be purchased for possession in NJ from out of state sources and or a legally permitted individual in NJ (such as myself )

do you know of anyone I could contact about reproducing these snakes for the purpose of release into the wild?

It is not allowed all together (unless the state is working a program that you could get in on = check their site) they heavily fine people for liberating snakes, even if they are indigenous to NJ. They have very good scientific reasoning behind this rule. Captive animals may have certain disease and or parasite issues and if released have the potential to spread a disease in the wild specie and possibly cause extirpation . I had similar interests, like you, and inquired about the possibility, All snakes (just about) derived from the Herpetoculture Circle are not considered genetically diverse enough to be used in the "Species Survival Plan", ( States and Science departments opinion, which I agree with) Imaging with each inbreeding the neonatal snakes loose 25 % of their genes and usually create lethal combinations and or anomalies that are not suitable for the "Wild Type" animals survival status. One would have to collect the animals from the pine barrens to start with good solid unrelated stock. Herpetoculture people tend to line breed most species and therefor make them genetically worthless for such a program that involves replenishing their wild counterparts. State would not allow one to collect them for this said purpose, plus in multiple animal collections, the pines may be inadvertently exposed to some type of bacterium, virus , and or micoplasms that could be lethal to Herps and animals in general, because they can not create Antibodies to fight the "alien infection", so any type of release/replenishing should involve a sterile environment and be conducted in the Lab to ensure the animals genetic integrity is not polluted and no diseases are introduced into the wild niche of all animals in that particular ecosystem.

I am babbling , you get the point.

Concise version.

Do not liberate any animals into the wild for any reason, even if indigenous to the area. Better safe than sorry, just look at all the frogs being wiped out from an introduced fungus that they can not fight off and subsequently they are perishing in large numbers. (that's a theory of the science community). I also liked the idea of " replenishing" , but didn't delve on the possible consequences of creating a condition that does more harm then good.

Although, I am 100 % certain my northern's are from 3 different bloodline, one being the so called ocean county one, my animals are not suitable either, due to all the different species I keep and the possibility of introducing a lethal combination of germs into the wild must not be over looked, while it may not cause the captive or wild northern's any harm, who knows what it could do other animals in the ecosystem. Ecological Homeostasis is not too hard to disrupt and negative consequences could easily be produced.

Did I mention this is not a good idea. =)

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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

>>I have a black rat that I have had for just over a year. She has been a decent "pet" but I think she is much older than I think. She is only going to the bathroom about every 6 weeks. She has been eating just fine accept for the last 2 weeks (gravid) and she did have a protozoan infection which I believe has cleared up now. The problem is that I no longer have the space for her and am hoping to move her out after she has laid eggs... I can't seem to find anybody who wants her or can give her proper care. I can't really keep her any longer and was concidering just releasing her in a secluded wood. If I give her a few good meals after dropping her eggs should she be fine?
>>
>>-----
>>.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
>> 1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
>>.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
>>.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)
>>
>>"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Put her up for adoption.
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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

I am guessing that you are in Missouri. If that is the case you cannot, according to the wildlife code, buy, sell, trade, exchange, barder, RELEASE, any native reptile. You can however contact the conservation agent for your county and he will either recomend euthenizing it or may take it for an educational program.
Another point. If you have had it for a year and it is gravid I must assume you bred her to one of the captive lineage black rats you have. These animals can retain sperm and I for one don't want my Missouri native populations muddied up by that DNA.
Last point. If you are in fact in Missouri you cannot legally breed any native reptile. You can only breed the species if it was obtained from outside the state and you have a class two breeders license. As a matter of fact, there is no way I can think of that one can legally aquire a Missouri locale black rat.
Whatever you decide, Don't let her go and don't post it anywhere, even for adoption. Missouri is cracking down on hobbyists and they are itching to make an example of someone.

So what is the point of rescuing a snake if they will make you euthenise it later?
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

From the perspective of the Conservation Department there is no point in rescuing a non-threatened native animal. They want to protect the populations of a SPECIES that live here, not any one individual. It is in the best interest of the wild population to not have any animal that has possibly been exposed to exotic infections exposed to them.

BTW. Are you sure about not being able to breed them? I called my local conservation department whenever I recieved my albino black rats and all they told me was that I need a permitt to have more than 5 and I Can keep wild caught species as long as I don't sell them..... They never said anything about breeding or releasing. I will call them and see if she can be relocated and or used for education. Not sure she would be the best though. Should I ask them about her possibly being gravid or do you think they are pig headed enough to fine me for their mistakes?
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

I don't have the code book in front of me but I am sure you need to have a permit to breed any native species and it is prohibited to breed any native specimen. I believe you may be right about being able to keep the amels as long as they were purchased out of state and you do not breed them but they do count towards your five native reptiles that you can keep without a permit.
Yes, they will punish you for their mistake. I can't tell you how many conservation agents don't know anything about the reptile section of the code book. They can tell you everything about fish limits and hunting rules though. If the wrong person found out they could legally fine you because ignorance of the law in not a defense, even if you were told differently by an agent, because it is clearly stated in the code book that they have to supply for free to anyone who asks.

I think I have found a solution. If I give her to someone locally for no profit then that would be within legal limmits correct?
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

No. It is illegal to "give away" a native reptile. I have had people suggest letting an animal go in front of another who can then catch it but it is also illegal to "release" a native. If you want to stay within the letter of the law you have to relinquish it to a conservation official. That being said, most of the people in the conservaion department I have talked to about this type of thing don't really care if you give your wild caught and maintained black rat to your buddy. The laws are designed to make Missouri reptiles impossible to buy, sell, and trade. Every state has habitat issues to deal with. Most states have some sort of permit process to collect and sell reptiles. Missouri is like Australia--they just say "NO!!" It protects the animals fairly well I suppose if they are rendered worthless. It also helps that Missouri does't have anything very cool either.

MO has a ton of "cool" reptiles.

And furthermore the handbook does not seem to say anything about giving away (for free) any reptile to a resident....

3 CSR 10-9.110
(1) Possession of native species.
(A) A maximum of five (5) specimens of any native wildlife not listed in 3 CSR 10-4.110 or 3 CSR 10-9.240, except endangered species, bats, hellbenders, and alligator snapping turtles, may be taken and possessed alive by a resident of Missouri without permit, but these animals shall not be bought or sold. Bones, skins, shells, and other parts of such wildlife may be possessed for personal use permit, but these wildlife parts in any form shall not be bought or sold. Wildlife held under this subsection may not be transported or shipped from the state.
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

OK. Missouri has cool reptiles to you and me but not much that is desirable to the masses.
I think the section I was thinking of in the code book is 3 CSR 10-9.415 Here are the high points. Permit to take, possess, etc for rehabilitation of sick or injured wildlife. Wildlife must not be propagated, sold, exhibited, given away, held more than 120 days, released or otherwise disposed of except as authorized by an agent of the department. You also basically have to be a vet or have a ton of prior rehab experience to get said permit.
I don't want you to think I'm giving you a hard time. I just don't want you to get busted and I don't want you to release the snake.
Kayvon

or should I ask, "What are you supposed to do with it" if you cant give it away, can't release it, but can't hold it for more than 120 days. I may be confused by the "can't hold it for more than 120 days."

She is also accustomed to humans as a food source. Therefore, she would likely seek out humans, be accustomed to their pressence, or seek to live near them. This would likely put her in harms way considering most people's fear of snakes.