Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All,

Please find sample letter pasted below. Fax to TPWD Commissioners and email to: robert.macdonald@tpwd.state.tx.us.

NO turtles made the list. Protect your rights to keep, breed and sell turtles!

The Honorable Joseph B.C. Fitzsimons
FAX - (210) 829-1641

The Honorable Donato D. Ramos
FAX - (956) 727-5884

The Honorable Mark E. Bivins
FAX - (806) 373-3557

The Honorable J. Robert Brown
FAX - (915) 775-0985

The Honorable T. Dan Friedkin
FAX - (713) 580-5220

The Honorable Peter M. Holt
FAX - (210) 648-0078

The Honorable Philip Montgomery
FAX - (972) 490-4905

The Honorable John D. Parker
FAX - (936) 632-4503

The Honorable Lee Marshall Bass
FAX - (817) 390-8408

Michael Welker
3105 Eads Place
El Paso, TX 79935
915-595-8831

May 23, 2005

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, Texas 78744

Why the “White List” is a bad idea

The “White List” protects species that are not in demand but allows commercial harvest in species that are in demand: This is counter to conservation. Why protect a species that has virtually no demand while allowing harvest in species with high demand? This is the million dollar question.

The “White List” regulates just for the sake of regulation: Since there is very little demand for the species protected by the “White List” this regulations function will be to regulate just for the sake of regulation.

The “White List” goes against the Mission Statement of Texas Parks and Wildlife Department: “To manage and conserve the natural and cultural resources of Texas and to provide hunting, fishing and outdoor recreation opportunities for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations.” The “White List” will ban commercial activity in a large number of species thus taking away “...opportunities for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations.”

The “White List” could protect species into extinction. Development, roads, human population growth and the policies of “economic growth” are running rampant in this country and this state. This threatens the continued existence of almost all species. The captive population of live amphibians and reptiles is a “safety net” against this uncontrolled growth. This captive population requires access to founder animals and commerce in these species to help maintain the costs of captive propagation and the dissemination of these species to others.

The “White List” will restrict scientific research in those species not listed. Researchers do not have the means to go into the field and collect all the species or tissue samples they may need for research. They rely on companies and individuals in the area of the species occurrence to go out and collect these species. These individuals are trying to earn a living and feed their families while contributing to scientific knowledge. These acquisition companies have a myriad of expenses including gas, vehicle maintenance and equipment expenses among many other expenses. They must charge for their services. The “White List” will put them out of business. I have an order right now from Dr. Daniel J. Meinhardt of the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay for 12 Leopard Frogs (NOT on “White List”) for a research project so this will definitely hamper research.

The “White List” will hamper conservation and education efforts for the species not listed: The “White List” will not allow zoos, museums and educators to purchase the species they need for conservation (wise use) and education programs they are involved in. As with scientists, zoos, museums and educators cannot travel around the country to collect the species they may need thus they rely on acquisition companies and individuals to do the work for them and these people have expenses and they are trying to earn a living just like everyone else.

The “White List” will eliminate the knowledge gained regarding captive propagation techniques and captive reproductive biology of the species not listed on the “White List” because hobbyists will not be able to commerce in these species to help offset costs of captive propagation: The costs of setting up, maintaining and inducing reproduction in many species not listed on the “White List” is very high. Hobbyists require the ability to commerce in these species in order to help control the costs of captive maintenance. The knowledge gained from hobbyists is invaluable to the knowledge base for the species they work with. The “White List” will put an end to that.

The “White List” protects common and wide ranging species: The “White List” serves no function in regards to conservation or knowledge gained. It protects a whole host of species that are very common like the Cricket Frog and the Leopard Frog. Both of these species are used in research and are used as food items for hobbyists and zoos working with species that feed on this species.

The “White List” will decimate captive breeding and commerce in many turtle species that have been bred in captivity for decades: It will be illegal to sell captive born offspring if the “White List” is enacted. This is totally against ANY conservation principles and a horribly thought out idea. Captive propagation and the commerce in captive bred offspring is essential to the survival of many species. It is a “safety net” against the REAL forces causing declines in our wildlife populations. It would a MAJOR blunder to make this illegal.

The “White List” takes way the privileges of many law abiding, conservation oriented people by punishing them for the sins of a few. Further, too much regulation will cause people to lose interest in the hobby and this could deny the growth of our next great herpetologist: The “White List” will ban the commerce in many species. If conservation is a concern because of over collecting then bag limits should be put in place. All of the conservation oriented and law abiding people should not be punished because of the greed of a few. That is not fair nor does it conform to the Mission Statement of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. Too much regulation can be a deterrent for up and coming herpetologists.

Please reconsider this BAD idea. If over collection is a concern, then put bag limits in place. It is not right, fair or logical to put this “White List” regulation in place. It will only tie people’s hands and damage conservation efforts. As a point of reference I will give you my credentials. I have an AS degree in Zoo Animal Technology from Santa Fe Community College, a BS in Wildlife Science from North Carolina State University, one semester way from completing my MS in Environmental Policy and Management from the University of Denver and a Certificate in GIS. I have several publications in Herp Review and numerous contributions to journals and books. I am the former head of the Herpetology Department at the Central Florida Zoo. I have worked on many wildlife research projects over my 20 year career working with: Dr. Reed Noss, Dr. Dan Smith, Dr. Steve Tilley, Ray Ashton, and Dr. Perran Ross and many others. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Michael Welker
Herpetologist/ Wildlife Scientist
Ocotillo Herpetofauna & Invertebrates
3105 Eads Place
El Paso, Texas 79935
915-595-8831
352-256-4000
herpcon@cox.net

Can someone please explain why prohibiting the wild collection of turtles and other species, for commercial purposes, is a bad thing?

There is some jerk in Texas that collects ornate box turtles by the hundreds in texas and sells them. God knows how many of them die.

So please, someone explain to me why this is a bad thing.
I don't think "commercial" collection of ANY wild animal should be allowed. I DO think that captive breeding should be allowed and that captive bred offspring should be allowed for sale.

So unless this proposed law would prohibit captive breeding, I don't see what the problem is. If anything, there shouldn't be ANY wild caught species allowed for commercial sale and thus, no "white list".
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Reasons why commercial collection and sale should be allowed:

1. Founder animals.
2. Locality specific animals.
3. Salvaged and displaced animals need homes.
4. Researchers, zoos, museums, educators and hobbyists want them.
5. People can't travel around and collect what they would like to work with or do research on and it costs money and time to collect animals.
6. Commerce in animals helps cover the costs of captive propagation, costs of collection and helps spread out animals to different people.
7. New blood.
8. All plants and animals are a renewable resource.
9. It provides income for people.
10. Just because YOU believe wild caught animals shouldn't be sold doesn't mean that everyone feels that way. I don't think that YOU should be allowed to wear pink on Monday.
11. The captive herp population is a "safety net" against human population growth, development, roads, the policies of "economic growth", pollution and climate change. Wouldn't you rather have them in captivity then dead?
12. It costs money to live on this planet.
13. We don't live in a perfect world.
14. "Commercial" means the selling of ONE animal whether wild caught or captive born.
15. Because it is our privilage to do so.
16. Most species are not bred in captivity.
17. It creates jobs.
18. It allows people to work with different species. This allows the discovery of captive husbandry techniques and captive reproductive biology.
19. There is nothing wrong with it.
20. All captive born animals came from wild caught at one time or another and most of those were bought and sold I am sure.
21. Once they are removed from the wild whether for commercial purposes or personal use they are gone from the gene pool.
22. Many research projects require many wild caught animals from different places. Researchers do not have the funding to travel to all these places. Do you think people should just go out and collect them for free and send them to the reseacher? Who is going to pay for their gas and other expenses?

Wild harvest should be allowed as long as it does not hurt wild populations and the animals are taken care of properly in captivity. More herps are killed on the roads in this country then are collected by a long shot. Low intensity wild harvest will NEVER hurt wild populations except in extreme cases. If it is at that point where it would then they are doomed anyway. Most herp species can never be hurt by collection for any reason because we couldn't find and catch them all. It is impossible. Only certain species in certain places can be damaged by over collection. This is where bag limits should be put in place. That is all we need to worry about with collection. We need to focus on habitat destruction, roads, "economic growth" and human population growth.

How do you feel about "scientists" collecting all the herps they can find just to pickle them for science?

Does that answer your question?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

"Low intensity wild harvest will NEVER hurt wild populations except in extreme cases. If it is at that point where it would then they are doomed anyway. Most herp species can never be hurt by collection for any reason because we couldn't find and catch them all. It is impossible. Only certain species in certain places can be damaged by over collection. This is where bag limits should be put in place. That is all we need to worry about with collection."

You evidently have very little understanding of box turtles and their rates of reproduction, and the survival rates of their young. You should do your homework on the subject before you make such uninformed, blanket statements.

Doesn't matter now because the vote happened yesterday.
The ban did go into effect, the white list is in place.
From what I have heard they did allow for the commercial collection of common snapping turtles, RES, and softshell but the collection of any other turtle species is now banned.
So now that's that, it's over.
-----
PHRatz

>>From what I have heard they did allow for the commercial collection of common snapping turtles, RES, and softshell but the collection of any other turtle species is now banned.
>>So now that's that, it's over.

I meant to say the commercial collection of any other species is now banned. That means collecting wild box turtles in order to sell them is now illegal in TX.
-----
PHRatz

Well it is not over for me. Regs can be changed and modified. Look at the ban on Trans Pecos snakes that was reversed. It can be done and I will always fight for fair, intelligent, logical regulations and laws. The "White List" is a horrible idea. Now the researcher who needed Leopard Frogs from me will not get them. I hope his research wasn't that important!

Also all you TX Box Turtle breeders get your numbers down to 6 individuals and NO reproduction!

Take Care,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

My statements are fact and reality. I am very familiar with Box Turtle reproductive biology. As with many species, neonate survival is very low. But it is also VERY hard to find neonates and juveniles. Does that mean that they are not there because we can't find them? Observability in herps is very difficult, if not almost impossible. This fact prevents us from gathering a significant amount of useful data. Researchers are working from what they can gather and they formulate opinions based on insufficient data. Do you know how many millions of individual Box Turtles there are in the wild? Further, we do not have access to most of thier habitat. Further still, the habitat we do have access to doesn't mean we can find them on that habitat. How many people collect Box Turtles? Where do they collect Box Turtles? Are these Box Turtles displaced animals(from development) or from secure, stable populations?

If I were you I would separate conjecture and opinion from facts and reality. Many in academia and agency biologists (that come from academia) are opposed to wild collection and captive propagation so they are pushing an agenda of banning regulations. This is based purley on opinion not on scientific study. So you can chose to believe all this propaganda or you can look at the data, the facts and the reality of the situation.

Take Care,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

"If I were you I would separate conjecture and opinion from facts and reality. Many in academia and agency biologists (that come from academia) are opposed to wild collection and captive propagation so they are pushing an agenda of banning regulations. This is based purley on opinion not on scientific study. So you can chose to believe all this propaganda or you can look at the data, the facts and the reality of the situation.'

I have looked at the facts and the reality of the situation. I'm more inclined to lend credence to independent scientific studies that are conducted by qualified individuals, academic institutions and agencies that are not influenced by profit motives, as you apparently are. Thanks anyway.

You don't think that those universities and researchers make a profit? Fantasy land!

Take Care,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Not from collecting and selling wild animals, no.

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Info about the new law....
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