Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Man, I am seriously P.O.ed. The county I live in (in Kansas) just banned owning "exotic animals". That list includes snakes over 8 ft. If you already own them, you can keep them (gee thanks) but you have to go to the courthouse and get a $25 permit. But you can't have any more. (wanna bet?) I have a 12 ft. burmese now, and was planning on finding him a girlfriend soon. He has four different locks on his cage, which is locked in the basement, which is locked in the house. He's not getting out. I sort of understand not wanting cougars or tigers in the city limits, but why the whole dang county. I know of a couple who have a rescue center that has 2 tigers and a cougar that were abused by previous owners that they have rescued. They operate using their own money and private donations. What about places like this. Like I said, I live in Kansas and there are no big cities even in this county, just a bunch of little towns and countryside. I know of a lot of dogs running loose or in peoples yards that are a hell of a lot more dangerous than my python. Yet llamas and buffalo are still ok to have. Hmmmmm, what would I rather have coming at me, a snake or a freakin buffalo? Sorry, just have to vent. I will go down to the courthouse and get my permit. However, when I decide to breed the big guy, I will. Last time I checked, this was still a free country. And yes, I do have a little problem with authority, but only when there are ignorant people who have the authority. I'll go along with the little "permit" thing. It might help them figure out if anyone is dealing with illegal exotics. But I don't agree with banning them all together. I will continue to keep my python, and his girlfriend if I so choose. I'm not cocky or think I'm above the law, I'm just free.

This really stinks. I'm sorry for you. As for your plans on adding more 'illegal' snakes to your collection, read the second part of my signature. Good luck, Scott.
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Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws.
But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
—Martin Luther King Jr

Just found out some more info on obtaining the permit. You also have to have liability insurance. In the exact words "The liability insurance required hereby shall be in the amount of not less than $500,000.00 per person, $500,000.00 per occurrence, and shall name Osage county as an additional insured". I have renters insurance, but I don't think its that much. I have a python. Not a pack of wild hyenas. The county commissioners can take the permit and the $500,000 insurance and shove them both in their southern-most orifice (I'm usually a very calm and nice guy, really). Has anyone else had this type of problem?

In Billings Montana. They have the Same thing. You were not suposed to get more snakes if you already owned them. And for the ones you already had Over 6 Feet , You needed to get a permit. The permit was 50 bucks , and you needed to have insurance on them like you would if you owned a Pit Bull in the City limits.
But the thing is. (my Uncle is a Sherrif in yellowstone county.) He told me , What they dont know , wont hurt them. Just dont go walking down the street with it and you'll be fine.
I had to keep them in the house for years. They never got to go outside unless it was in the back yard and i knew everyone was out at work or something and wouldnt spot them and freak out.
I live in Columbus Ohio now. I am still in the city limits , but out enough that i'm about 30 minutes from downtown. I havent had any problums and i live by 4 Sherrifs , 2 city officials , and 1 city cop. But ,, i havent heard of anything about a ban here ,,,,,, Yet.

>>Just found out some more info on obtaining the permit. You also have to have liability insurance. In the exact words "The liability insurance required hereby shall be in the amount of not less than $500,000.00 per person, $500,000.00 per occurrence, and shall name Osage county as an additional insured". I have renters insurance, but I don't think its that much. I have a python. Not a pack of wild hyenas. The county commissioners can take the permit and the $500,000 insurance and shove them both in their southern-most orifice (I'm usually a very calm and nice guy, really). Has anyone else had this type of problem?

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Seth Mason.
Do lesbian frogs think they taste like chicken too ?

Im also in Kansas... and I have heard nothing about this o_O

What county in this? I'm sort of in a bumbkin country area... so Im crossing my fingers it's not my county or near me...

Where did you hear this from?

Feel free to drop me an email with anymore details you might have.. nyx@nyxie.com

Thanks!

-Randilyn
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Randilyn -;,-
Desolate Gray: Reptiles

Im also in Kansas... and I have heard nothing about this o_O

What county in this? I'm sort of in a bumbkin country area... so Im crossing my fingers it's not my county or near me...

Where did you hear this from?

Feel free to drop me an email with anymore details you might have.. nyx@nyxie.com

Thanks!

-Randilyn
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Randilyn -;,-
Desolate Gray: Reptiles

I think I understand how you must be feeling. Suddenly your quiet world is turned upside down by forces beyond your control. Sometime in the past some people you don't know acted irresponsibly with an exotic and now you are made to pay for their irresponsibe actions. The problem is much larger than what you are having to confront. We've said it for a long time, police ourselves or we will be policed. These laws are becoming more common place now because exotics are more common place. And they are blanket laws meant to sweep away all ownership of all exotics, in case our politicians miss one and a disgruntled parent whose child loses an arm to a Bengal tiger in the neighbor's yard of their suburban community, will have the career of that politician. CYA, that is the reason for these laws. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the majority of our population cannot handle a wild animal, yet they are readily accessible to most people for a little cash, some for very little cash. How many of us here have Burmese that are over 3 years old? over twelve feet long? over 70 pounds? And how many have hatchlings, yearlings, and sub-adults? We see it right here on this forum. They get too big and they are sold, given, away, neglected, abandoned, thrown out with the garbage after being frozen beside the ice cream all night long. As it is we do not have sufficient responsible keepers to warrant the breeding and importation numbers, but we continue to produce. We are always looking for new morphs until the beauty of a normal is so ordinary it begins to look ugly and we can't even give them away anymore because another morph has now become more affordable. You said it yourself that you are going to get a mate for your Burmese and you are going to do it despite any laws placed to stop you. You are saying so in a forum defiantly as if you have the right to be excluded from laws that are in place to protect people from people who behave in such a way as to endanger the public. Until we begin to behave in such a way as to exhude professionalism, rationale, and ethical behavior we will be swept away in every law targeting exotics. You say you have done nothing to deserve this law, and it unfair in that respect, but if for some reason this forum is being read by officials in wildlife agencies and he or she sees sufficient defiance, we will draw more negative attention in the future. And it isn't just this forum, it is our behavior when we take our snakes to public places, the way we speak when addressing a sensitive issue, the way we behave ourselves at shows and what we are supporting by buying more animals than we can reasonably keep. This isn't b.s., this is the reality of what we have done to ourselves and what we continue to do by acting in irresponsible ways. Unfortunately Mr. Neighbor's stupidity with a Bengal tiger inside a four foot chain link fence in American suburbia speaks for all of us. the only way to protect ourselves is to make our rational, responsible voices heard above the idiots that seem attracted to every large wild beast on the planet. We are engaged in a battle against a majority that view us as "less than" and against the minority within our ranks that behave as if they are above accountability. It won't do to get mad or break laws. Complacency won't do either. We have to acknowledge our collective past and police ourselves.
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Marcia Pimentel
Tango River Reptiles
GiantFeeders

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--Bonnie

I direct a nature/wildlife center featuring many herps including giant constrictors. Our facility alone takes in over 35 burms annualy in addition to retics, rocks, 'condas, boas, etc. And these are not just normal morphs but we receive MANY high end morphs. It never ceases to amaze me how ill prepared most burm keepers are....even on this forum (no offense gang but I would like to know how many folks have kept a burm for at least 10 years and follow strict and responsible keeping, feeding, handling protocols). It is no wonder why legislators are putting the clamps down. Many of the burms that come to our facility are a result of various confiscations including drugs (my biggest pet peeve), neglect and just outright disregard for the law. It is no wonder why we are in this position. It has always been my position that the herp community has become very complacent...we are, in essence, reactors rather than initiators of action. It is too bad we didn't take a page out of the book of falconry. Since I am an avid raptor enthusiast (keeping several birds of prey in addition to my many herps), I will say that the falconry community figured out the steps to success in protecting their hobby. They became proactive in working with state and federal agencies in developing stringent, self policing procedures that basically weeds out the "oh wow, isn't my hawk cool" types of people to giving those people who have a true passion in working with raptors the ability to keep them without having to worry about their prized animals being confiscated. The herp community needs to wake up and smell the coffee. It is not only happening in KC and NYC but in MANY other places. Chicago is considering one of the strictest anti-reptile bans in the nation. If it passes, you won't even be able to own a ball python....pretty scary when you consider that this is a city comprised of MANY reptile owners and the strongest and largest herp society in the U.S. Hate to say it folks, but it's only going to get worse unless we get our acts together. If there's one thing I can't stand is people saying "screw the government, I'm gonna do it anyway" and other such sentiments...it won't get you anywhere other than furthering the probability of a nationwide ban on reptiles. Lets get our acts together!

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)

.... and while I agree with SOME of what you said here, it isn't so simple as to attempt to police ourselves. And while I understand your reference to falconry and I understand the concept you sited here, that won't work here. This is way different and here's why,..... It's the availability that makes it completely different. When one has falcons or hawks they can't just breed them and produce 50 or 60 offspring per female per year. IF they even got them to breed at all. It would be 2 or 3 offspring, and this would never lead to the overproduction and subsequent flooding of the animal which in turn leads to the average Joe ownership factor. So because the falcon and hawk remains small and more exclusive, it is easy to prevent forms of corruption and gluttony.

Now,.. with the pythons, any average shmoe can get a few pythons and in a few years be producing several hundred offspring per year. Most of these moonlighting breeders don't want the responsibility of taking care of numerous babies and either sell them cheap or broker them to pet shops. To me, the pet shops are the most evil cog in this whole corrupted system. MOST of them (notice I am not saying ALL) don't give a rats arse what happens to those snakes once they get their money and the snake exits their door. And to me, this is despicable. This is where most of the snakes that end up in rescues and shelters come from. So this is where attentions should be focused if any effort is to be made to rectify any existing problems in the reptile market/world. And you can bet that I am 100% for fixing all of these problems. I am not for bans, however. I feel that bans solve nothing and can be compared to prohibition. It opens the door to black market brokers and new forms of crime. For reptile keepers will never simply stop keeping their reptiles. What I do think might work is laws shaped that make the seller (breeders, pet shops, etc) more liable or legally responsible for where the animals that they sell go and what may happen with that animal. This would force us/them to be more selective with whom we sell to, and this would solve a lot of problems that result from indescriminant reptile sales.

Rob, I would like to see some pictures of some of the high end pythons that have come into your center via rescues or seizures. I am curious to see just what high end animals are actually making it to rescues. I have a few friends here on the West coast that run rescues and the only thing that came close was one male green burmese. There are a few albino burms from time to time, but these are quite plentiful these days and nobody anywhere would consider them "high end". But even so, these are adopted out at quite high rates. (200 per animal) When I think "high end" I think of anything that exceeds 500 per baby. I have yet to see anything in this catagory in any rescue here.

>>I direct a nature/wildlife center featuring many herps including giant constrictors. Our facility alone takes in over 35 burms annualy in addition to retics, rocks, 'condas, boas, etc. And these are not just normal morphs but we receive MANY high end morphs. It never ceases to amaze me how ill prepared most burm keepers are....even on this forum (no offense gang but I would like to know how many folks have kept a burm for at least 10 years and follow strict and responsible keeping, feeding, handling protocols). It is no wonder why legislators are putting the clamps down. Many of the burms that come to our facility are a result of various confiscations including drugs (my biggest pet peeve), neglect and just outright disregard for the law. It is no wonder why we are in this position. It has always been my position that the herp community has become very complacent...we are, in essence, reactors rather than initiators of action. It is too bad we didn't take a page out of the book of falconry. Since I am an avid raptor enthusiast (keeping several birds of prey in addition to my many herps), I will say that the falconry community figured out the steps to success in protecting their hobby. They became proactive in working with state and federal agencies in developing stringent, self policing procedures that basically weeds out the "oh wow, isn't my hawk cool" types of people to giving those people who have a true passion in working with raptors the ability to keep them without having to worry about their prized animals being confiscated. The herp community needs to wake up and smell the coffee. It is not only happening in KC and NYC but in MANY other places. Chicago is considering one of the strictest anti-reptile bans in the nation. If it passes, you won't even be able to own a ball python....pretty scary when you consider that this is a city comprised of MANY reptile owners and the strongest and largest herp society in the U.S. Hate to say it folks, but it's only going to get worse unless we get our acts together. If there's one thing I can't stand is people saying "screw the government, I'm gonna do it anyway" and other such sentiments...it won't get you anywhere other than furthering the probability of a nationwide ban on reptiles. Lets get our acts together!
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>>Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
>>The Wildlife Discovery Center
>>City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

Brian, I realize that the way falconry works and transposing it to herpetoculture would be very difficult and probably a task that most DNR's/Game and Fish/etc. would not want to take on due to the costs. But, there are some modifications that could be easily done to takcle this issue. For example, in Illinois, you need an endangered species permit to keep any protected herp. It is quite easy to get and only requires an annual report to be submitted to the DNR. There's no reason why an extra line item couldn't be added to include large constrictors/etc. Or, have folks who keep large constrictors to register with the local animal control officer much like what we do with cats and dogs. The bottom line is, and the point I was trying to make, is that the herp community is so totally and completely apathetic when it comes to getting involved with making REAL and POSITIVE changes to protecting our hobby that they would rather just [bleep] and moan about the problem rather than trying to find a solution to it. YOu are right, herps are here to stay so we need to ALL get on the same page and be educated and knowledgeable in finding solutions.

Now, in terms of the high end snakes I was referring to, we have received just about EVERY known burm morph on the market...you name it, we have received it....personally, regardless of the morhp, I don't think ANY burm is worth paying $500 because I truly feel that MOST burms will become abandoned at some point in their lifetime (see Marcia's comments; she hit it head on). We have received tiger and super tiger retics (when they were fetching BIG, BIG bucks), those "ugly" patternless rocks (no offense, but I just can't imagine why anyone would want a patternless rock when you you could have the real deal - the natural looking rock with its intricate pattern is one of the most beautiful serpents known...why ruin it?), hypomelanistic blood and various borneos, one of the nicest jungle carpets you will ever see (and I have been offered $1K for this animal...NO WAY, we love her), a snow boa, croc monitors, gila monsters, olive pythons, tree monitors, brazilian rainbow boas, green tree pythons just to name a few and I think they all qualify as "high end" by your $500 standard you set (maybe not now, but when we received them). I remember when I received one of the first pairs of bearded dragons that came into the U.S....I was getting $300 for a hatchling back then! I can get some pics if you'd like but my schedule is real tight right now...drop me an email and I will forward a few to you. I believe some are availabe on a web site that I can get for you. I have built a truly amazing collection on dump off herps that people paid a lot of money for...it boggles my mind. About the only herp I have actually paid money for are for my eastern indigo snakes...but, I am a serious drymarchon breeder so its well worth the cost.

Sorry if I seem a bit opinionated on this subject and go off into a bit of a rant, but being IN the profession (and as a serious breeder/hobbyist), I know that EVERYONE needs to get involved before someone from the outside dicates what we can or cannot do. My falconry scenario idea can work with proper modifications; it just takes some forward thinking folks to think outside the box to find solutions. If everyone was like you Brian, in terms of how you educate your customers, I don't think we would have many problems....unfortunately, most breeders are not like that. And, last, as far as high end animals, I know you are probably scratching your head and wondering if I am just blowing smoke or something, but the animals I listed are just literally a SMALL representation of what we have taken in over the years and you would be blown away if you could see what comes through our doors....but, for every HIGH end or unusual herp that comes in, we probably see a 30-50 normal looking burms (that are sick and dying), boas, etc.

Rob Carmichael

I still don't agree. I said that I would go along with the permit thing. That's fine. It will the officials keep track of who has how many of what, and where. What I don't agree with is the ban of "exotics" altogether. Why should everyone be punished for mistakes of a few people? Thousands of people are killed each year in car wrecks caused by the negligence of other drivers. Have all automobiles been banned? Dog attacks kill people each year as well. Have all large breed of dogs over 30 pounds been banned? The list could go on for a long time. So you see, a total ban "for public safety" just doesn't make sense to me. Ms. Pimentel, you made a comment about us drawing negative attention. One way was by our behavior when we takes our snake out in public (please excuse me, I can't remember your exact words). I for one am very careful and considerate of others when I'm out, for that reason. I have personally seen people change their "all snakes are bad" attitudes after talking to me and seeing my python. It just takes a little education for some people to realize what beautiful and magnificent creatures snakes truly are. You both made some good points, however my statements and opinions still stand. And I am doing more than just "bleeping and moaning". I got myself a list of the county officials, and plan on making a few calls, writing a few letters, and whatever else I can do to see if I can convince these people there are better ways than a total ban. I think this is one of those arguments that could go on for a very long time. I thank you both for your reponses.
Respectfully,
Wild Bill

I don't think it is really a matter of agreeing or disagreeing; we are all in this together. What happens in Kansas City and in my neck of the woods (Chicago) will impact other areas of the U.S. You are doing EXACTLY what you need to do...write letters, get others to write letters, talk to your local herpetological society, find out when these policy makers are meeting in a public forum so you can have the opportunity to address them. The Chicago Herp Society has some great statistics to show just how safe the keeping of reptiles are compared to keeping dogs, for example. So, no need to disagree...I hope you change some opinions.

A few of the points I addressed were general and not specifically directed at you. I have said in previous posts that I strongly believe informal education, such as the interaction you describe with your snake and the public, are pivotal educational opportunities. The manner in which we conduct ourselves strongly reflects on our entire community. The current wave of these laws are not, imo, reacting to reptiles specifically but to the spread of the Monkey Pox virus by Gambusian Pouch Rats and Prairie dogs but we in the herp hobby get it with both barrels anyway- an dunfortunately we have been asking for it. We need professional people in the hobby to write letters, to act responsibly, and to set first rate examples of the positive aspects of our hobby and the excellent care we provide our animals. I'm glad you are taking to a pen I truly believe that is the way for all of us.
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Marcia Pimentel
Tango River Reptiles
GiantFeeders