Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i forgot to put this in my last post.....can someone plz school me on Mercury Vapor Bulbs, specifically the T-Rex Active Heat one. with this bulb i wouldnt need to have a compact flourescent right?

im sure eveyone has thier pros and cons. but i would like to hear everyones opinion.

right now im using a 100 watt Blue Daylight Bulb with a ReptiGlo 8.0 CF. in a 30 gallon aquarium. Does anyone think this setup i have is ok? or should i try a higher wattage?

love to hear any and all suggestions!

The wattage of your bulb is dependent on the temperatures that you need at the basking spot....which varies from season to season and day to day.

If you make the MVB switch (i suggest everyone that really wants UVB for their dragons) that MVB bulb will be both your light source and heat source. The brand of the bulb most likely has little effect on output. What is important is that you use a "self-balasted" mercury bulb. otherwise you'll obviously need a ballast for a regular mercury vapor. Another thing that you'll need is a stand of some sort to hang the MVB and fixture so that it directs its light straight down. If the stand is adjustable, it will help you set the right basking temperature. MVB are pretty freakin hot and you CANNOT use a varible resistor with them. (>i forgot to put this in my last post.....can someone plz school me on Mercury Vapor Bulbs, specifically the T-Rex Active Heat one. with this bulb i wouldnt need to have a compact flourescent right?
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>>im sure eveyone has thier pros and cons. but i would like to hear everyones opinion.
>>
>>right now im using a 100 watt Blue Daylight Bulb with a ReptiGlo 8.0 CF. in a 30 gallon aquarium. Does anyone think this setup i have is ok? or should i try a higher wattage?
>>
>>love to hear any and all suggestions!
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a free range dragon is a happy dragon

I meant to rant on flourescent tubes for a bit so....

In my opinion (and any college level physical chemistry text book) it is just not possible to get UVB light from a flourescent tube for any more than a few days of use....UVA maybe a few months at best. Which i guess is better than not even knowing that Beardies need UVB light. Anyway, i don't understand why pet supply companies are even allowed to market their lights with the claims they have.

I have used UVBs ever since they came out with the 'self-balasted' bulbs. And hey, when the come out the affordable Deuterium or Xenon Arc lamp then i'll switch to one of those because they are even better than mercury vapor
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a free range dragon is a happy dragon

Sorry your rant is just incorrect. The bulbs have been tested many times by many different sources. Here's one of many sources.

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/lightingsurveyintro.htm

I have MVB bulbs. The ones I have are the Zoo Med Power Sun. I have the 100 and the 160 watt. in my opinion they are worthless. You have to keep them at a significant distance to prevent damage to your herps eyes and at that distance there is no significant usable heat.

Regarding the wattage of the bulb you are using. You need a temp. gauge with a separate probe on the basking spot. It should read between 105 and 110 for adults. The tough part this time of year is that your house temp. can change signicantly from morning to midday. I have found the only way to manage that is with a thermostat.

I also don't like the compact fluorescents. There have been previous posts about dragons keeping their eyes closed because of the intensity of the light. Also the compacts and MVB bulbs do not give any UVB except in a very small area close to the bulb.

i only skimmed through it...seems ok at first...but i can find a problem with the study.

My beardies spend about 1/3 to 1/2 of the day in a hiding spot or out of the direct MVB beam. I can't see how the MVBs can be damaging to their eyes. Isn't the sun even brighter and have much higher UVA/B/C output?
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a free range dragon is a happy dragon

im going to check out that study now. but for the most part ive heard the same things from other ppl. beardies keeping thier eyes closed cuz of the light. so im wondering if the CF are useless and the MVB's are to bright....wut the hell do we do?!

"wut the hell do we do?!"

we need a bionic eyeball that can see past the visible light spectrum! bdlvr and i are have monthly arguements as i am a MVB supporter and bdlvr is flourescent supporter. I hope you don't mind...i mean no emotional harm...i'm sure he doesn't either.

the ultimate study would be to measure the D3 present in the beardies blood and not to measure the UVB output at all. too much UVB and the dragon may not expose itself properly to light...too little UVb and the dragon may not get any usable UVb radiation....it was interesting to see that shedded bearded dragon skin filters out 96% of UVB light...wonder what nonshedded skin blocks???....wonder how much light is filtered through various morphs skin???
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a free range dragon is a happy dragon

both florescent tubes and mercury vapor bulbs have their pros and cons.

Tubes stretch the entire length of the cage and thus cover more surface area but they don't push huge amounts of UVB as far as MVB. Thus dragon basking areas have to be within 6-12"

Mercury vapor bulbs push UVB much further and at a higher concentration than tubes, but the brightness can be irritating to dragon's eyes, if they are too close. Thus, MVB should be at least 18" above the dragon's basking spot.

In nature, UVB is much stronger in the sun but most basking reptiles don't stay out in direct sunlight all day long, many move to shadowed areas, hollows etc, when the heat of the day (and subsequently strongest UVB outage) occurs. Also, natural sunlight can put out various levels of uvb, depending on time of day, presence of clouds or other atmospheric conditions, distance from the equator and other factors. Thus UVB outside can be anywhere from 50u to 500u

For more info about the actual outage of uvb from various brands of uvb bulbs, see the website below:

www.beautifuldragons.com
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PHLdyPayne

well for my rainbow boa im using a rheostat, so im assuming the strength of the UVB would go down a little bight, so would i still have more UVB than a tube? and light being not as intense...

Rheostat? What UVB light are you using a rheostat on? You can't use one with a MVB or a fluorescent.

Actually this whole UVB thing is extremely complicated. UVB light is a range of wavelengths. What wavelength each reptile uses is unknown. Therefore, a general meter for UVB wavelengths may show that a bulb puts out UVB. But is it really telling you that the UVB wavelength that your dragon needs is being supplied?

Oh well, I can only go by my own experience. I've tried them all. I often take in unwanted dragons with MBD. The Zoo Med 10.0 along with calcium w/D3 supplementation cures all but the most severe cases.

The MVB and Compact fluorescents both have drawbacks that have been pointed out. Even Jakentbc, a starch MVB supporter, says his dragons spend 1/3 to 1/2 of their day in a hiding spot. To me that is not normal. I think you'd have a hard time finding keepers/breeders that would agree that it is normal behavior for a captive dragon. If they were mine I'd change from the MVB and see if their behavior changes. If they don't bask they can't digest their food properly which can cause long term problems. Of course it could be something else such has too high a temp. Either way I'd investigate it.

i dont have my dragons on a rheostat, i have a UTH and 75 watt inared heat lamp for my BRB =) my dragons have an 18inch Tube (ReptiGlo 8.0) and a 100 watt daylight bulb would still ike to get temps higher tho but wanna get a temp gun before i do tho just to make sure. they are abt maybe 10 inches away from it on thier basking ledge.

No reptile basks all day long in the wild. Most diurnal basking reptiles spend the majority of their time in hiding. Basking all day long is a sign that the basking temperatures are insufficient for the needs of the reptile.

>>No reptile basks all day long in the wild. Most diurnal basking reptiles spend the majority of their time in hiding. Basking all day long is a sign that the basking temperatures are insufficient for the needs of the reptile.

I have to agree with that. I don't think we should be trying to replicate "captive dragon" behavior. We should be trying to replicate wild dragon behavior for the most success.

That being said, I think it obvious that either MVB or flourescent lighting can work. You just have to deal with each one's unique set of problems.
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0.10.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.0 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise

"No reptile basks all day long in the wild"

That statement is incorrect. It simply depends on the outside ambient temperature. I put my dragons outside (they were out there yesterday) it was 80 degrees. I have measured before and in direct sunlight at 80 degrees the wood basking areas are about 105-107 midday. Even at that low a temp they don't bask all day but move in and out of the shaded areas. They do not hide. This is normal thermoregulation.

At higher temperatures, say ambient 95 , they will pretty much hide full time. Why? Because they are uncomfortably warm and are trying to survive.

Also, keep in mind that the sun puts out significantly more UVB in the shade than any man made bulb.

My point is. If your enclosure is set up correctly, then normal thermoregulation should take place by moving around the enclosure. This provides exercise and if set up correctly allows more time to absorb UVB. Hiding in captivity has many drawbacks. They need more time to absorb UVB because the bulbs are putting out much less than they would get in the wild. They also need to exercise more since their range is smaller.

It's up to each owner but if they were mine I'd really investigate this behavior. If you have a proper cool side to your enclosure then I'd really be suspect of that MVB bulb.

but what about us humans......i bet all of us are vitamin D deficient. unless you spend lots of time working outside. yet we are still concerned with our dragons....that makes us good parents...

so....lets all pat each other on the back...good job!

go sun bathing this weekend it's a 3 day weekend...woohoo!
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a free range dragon is a happy dragon

I specifically said that a reptile will only bask all day long if the temperature is too low, and that's just what you said, so I don't think we have a disagreement there. Why would you want your dragon to operate with temperatures like that though? Why not give the reptile the temperatures it desires? I give mine basking temperatures over 120f, because I gave him a choice (between that and a regular 100-110f surface temp basking spot). He chose the hotter spot. I can only guess as to why this is, because I'm not the expert (the reptile is always the expert), but I assume that it is easier and much quicker for him to reach his target temperature this way. He only has to bask for short time periods each day, and then he can go about his business eating, climbing, hiding, etc. Impactions only happen to dehydrated reptiles with inadequate temperatures (or otherwise incapacitated reptiles, with a parasitic infestation or other ailment, which are usually a result of dehydration and inadequate temperatures). Wild reptiles don't go around getting impacted, and they have plenty of opportunities to. If a reptile becomes impacted, it is not the fault of the substrate (unless it's something stupid, like broken glass), it's the fault of the keeper. To the same point, a healthy reptile given access to the right temperatures and humidity choices will be more than able to fight off a parasitic infestation. They are subjected to many types of parasites in the wild and are able to survive and live their lives out. It's just another thing that indicates that the keeper is not doing his/her job correctly (unless of course, the animal was not healthy at the point of purchase, in which case the keeper shouldn't have bought the animal). I remember having my dragon come down with parasites and other ailments when I was younger, and I always blamed it on other things. It was my fault, 100%. I was keeping him in a glass tank with a heat lamp and a screen top, which means dehydration (put a bowl of water in there for a few days...the same thing is happening to your reptiles), I had him at temperatures that were inadequate, and I spent too much time worrying about UVB bulbs and substrates that might cause impaction. Eventually the ailments became more and more severe, until he was diagnosed with kidney disease. I got rid of everything, put him in a wooden cage with little ventilation, gave him hot basking spots, places to hide, and dirt to dig around in, and his symptoms of kidney disease disappeared completely over the course of a couple of months. That was about 4 years ago, and he's still kickin at a ripe old age. Haven't used a UVB bulb since (even raising baby tortoises) and have never experienced a problem with calcium deficiencies (which would manifest itself quickly in growing tortoises). I can't even begin to fathom what kind of mistakes have to be made for a reptile to come down with MBD.

Hiding is an extremely important part of reptilian survival, and most people don't understand this. All arid reptiles hide in areas of heightened humidity (usually all night and most of the day), because that allows them to maintain adequate hydration (even if they are just slightly dug under some debris, the humidity is higher there than out in the open),and it allows them to escape possible predation (which basically means in captivity it gives them a more stress-free area). But, a hidespot is not a box. It's something flat that the reptile can dig under, or it's something tight that the reptile can cram itself into. I gave my dragon multiple hides, and he uses all of them (depending on temperature and humidity needs). The best hidespots are ones that the reptiles make themselves.

P.S. If I've somehow offended anyone with this post, my apologies, but it's just information that I've gathered myself, without referring to the care sheets (those are what got me into trouble). I'm hoping for a mature response to this post, and before anyone gets upset about anything I said, take the time to really think about it. There's always a good possibility of a flame war with topics like these, and that's not the way it should be. I think this post was more than mature enough and well-thought-out to keep this conversation civil.

Thank you.

Wow. Didn't expect that response on this forum. lol.

It is well thought out and obviously taken from significant time of study and observation. You and I are a lot a like. Although we do not agree fully, I will consider your opinion and make comments tommorow after I have given it the thought and reflection it deserves.

I’ve given your post some thought.

I agree with some and disagree with some of your opinions.

First of all impaction, I agree that a properly hydrated Dragon has very little chance of impaction. But, this is assuming that you are using a substrate that a Dragon would instinctively understand. Therefore, in my opinion, dirt, sand or a combination of both are the best choices. Substrates such as wood shavings, crushed walnut, or calci-sand are not naturally occurring in the wild and therefore a Dragon could confuse them with a food source. I am sure that impactions happen in the wild too though. It’s just one of the risks of this species.

Temperatures, by my observations, I have to agree and disagree. The biggest problem with your theory is every dragon is different. I have a large female that has a basking branch that is flat and then bends upward about 12” towards the light. She is a heat lover and often climbs to the top. Although is measured and controlled to 105-110 on the flat part it is likely 120 or so at the top. Another dragon I have is the opposite, when her basking spot is over 105 she will shy away or lay on the sand. But in both these cases, neither dragon hides. I feel hiding is done by dragons in a proper environment as a defense mechanism. When I put a dragon in a new enclosure the dragon often hides for the first few days or until it becomes accustomed and feels safe in its new environment.

Humidity, glass tanks are not the problem as you say. You can put the bowl of water on your coffee table and it will evaporate. Humidity decreases as temperature increases. So in an average northern home in the winter, the humidity is only about 20% at about 68 degrees. In your dragon’s enclosure, at 90-95 ambient, this is less than 5%. Way too low even for a desert dwelling species. What do I do? I have a large humidifier that keeps the humidity at 68 degrees in the 45-50% range which keeps my enclosures in the 30% range.

I totally dispute and disagree with your no UVB stance. MBD is common in captive dragons. UVB and calcium supplementation have been shown to cure and prevent this. All I can say is MBD is coming to your home. I’d keep a close eye out for it. I think you’re ridiculous on this point though. Even if I agreed with you (and I certainly do not) I would still provide UVB. There is no downside to giving them something that in many opinions and studies they need.

Lastly, regarding the hiding, we don’t really simulate the wild very well. Sounds like you strive for an environment that is constantly the height of the summer. They hide at the warmest part of the day in the summer because it is just too hot. Yours bask in the 120 range for a short period because they get too hot after short periods. The mainstream keeper is more likely striving for an environment that is more like the spring/fall. Dragons like to bask all day. Even in the wild they will do this unless it is too warm or they feel threatened by predators. Also in the wild the warmest temperatures are in the middle of the day. In captivity most of us have temps. that remain about the same from morning until the lights go out.

Thinking about it, it sounds like you have 1 male dragon. Keep in mind as I stated that all dragons are different, often vastly different in their choices of food, desired temps. etc. Your non mainstream decisions on husbandry may work with the one you have but could be live threatening to other dragons. One of mine is a very large female, a clutch of eggs for her is in the high 30's, she just laid 36 and is due again in 2-3 weeks. That many eggs causes her to lose 150 grams and a tremendous amount of calcium to shell them. All that calcium and weight must be replaced properly before the next clutch is laid. UVB in my opinion is extremely important to help her metabolize that much calcium.

The reason I don't use UVB is simply because they don't need it. I don't ask why they don't, but I have kept reptiles for years now without it. MBD would have manifested itself by now. Besides the fact that I am raising tortoises literally from the egg, and they are growing with firm shells and no pyramiding. My bearded dragon has even had blood tests done since I've gotten rid of the UVB lights, and he shows no signs of imbalances, which would by now be highly evident. I do give my reptiles calcium supplements once or twice a week. Recently I've heard claims that high basking temperatures help reptiles to digest calcium in their diet. There's no studies about it, but a lot of people with a lot of experience that have been doing it for longer than you and I. Anyways, it's of no matter to you or I. My reptiles are doing great. I only have one male beardie because I bought him years ago as an adult, and found him to be kind of boring compared to other reptiles. Nothing personal against him. I love my dragon. Just that there was nothing special or interesting about the species to me, and since I can only afford a small collection, I decided not to put much money into beardies.

So let's leave the UVB thing at that. My reptiles are doing great, and again, I never told anyone to not use UVB bulbs, so I don't see what the problem is here.

As for aquariums with screen tops. They cause dehydration. Houses cause dehydration. There's just not enough humidity in either. That's why I use dirt as a substrate, and I don't usually install vents in my enclosures. It creates micro-climates that they use. Dry in some areas, humid in others. My dragon uses them.

Well, I think we both agree on some things and disagree on others. I could probably post more. You're an interesting person to talk to. I'm just tired right now and plan to go to bed.