Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'll be in the Bend area in Mid June. Im looking to see geckos (both), alterna, atrox, black taileds, lepidus, and trans pecos rat snakes.

I'll be spending most of my time on Black Gap, 118, and RR.

What time do you usually start seeing things when driving? Do you wait until dark, or do you start at dusk?

Is it usually more productive to walk the cuts, or shine from the car?

Do you still try cruising in the rain?

Do I need a hunting liscense to photograph?

How fast you guys drive?

Thanks for the help
Alex Dietrick

"I'll be in the Bend area in Mid June. Im looking to see geckos (both), alterna, atrox, black taileds, lepidus, and trans pecos rat snakes.

I'll be spending most of my time on Black Gap, 118, and RR.

What time do you usually start seeing things when driving? Do you wait until dark, or do you start at dusk?"

I myself start well before dark, since I enjoy seeing more diurnals like bulls, coachwhips (some in the Trans-Pecos are truly gorgeous), lizards, etc....

"Is it usually more productive to walk the cuts, or shine from the car?"

That's a hard question to answer-for everything except perhaps alterna and lepidus, I'd say that cruising is more productive. Others may disagree. I do find walking the cuts to be more fun-you see lots more small wildlife.

"Do you still try cruising in the rain?"

If you like amphibians.

"Do I need a hunting liscense to photograph?"

Yes.

"How fast you guys drive?"

LOL-10-65 mph....

Brad Chambers

YOU MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT NEED A HUNITNG LICENSE TO PHOTOGRAPH anything in the state of Texas!!!! Brad, read what the "law" says about take, kill, possess etc. It says nothing about photographing a reptile and needing a hunting license in which to do so!

Wayne

Sorry wayne, but unless you never intend to pick up or manipulate a herp to facilitate a photograph, then you do need a license. Remember the wording includes "take or attempt to take". Picking an animal up is, by definition, "capture" or "take". Will all wardens interpret things that strictly-no. Will some of them-yes!

The bottom line is that I'd rather spend an hour hunting snakes than arguing the above points with LE.

Brad Chambers

We should also consider the impact of our actions and interactions with LE on future herpers.

LE has to be skeptical. They get lied to all the time. Every warden out there probably has dozens of stories about herpers and other hunters offering cover stories for their true actions. As a result, they are not likely to believe a photographer that has no intent to capture anything. This is due to the past acts of lying herpers and we (as a group) have no right to get pissed at LE about it.

The more we argue and push our "rights" with LE the more we alienate LE and harm the future of field herping. Defend your rights in the TPWD field offices, legislature and (as a last resort) the court room, not in the field.

Besides, photography very often leads to classic hunting. Any serious herp photographer is likely to bag an occassional animal for photo sessions under better conditions. Lets face it, the middle of a blacktop road with grassy shoulders is a lously place for a photo shoot. If you want a decent photo, you must "capture" the herp and "take" it to a better spot. Even if you then release it exactly where you caught it, you HUNTED that animal.

Get a license, don't piss on LE, and don't make life difficult for the next herper.

They have all you guys so scared. You guys handle it your way. If they are going to hassle you, they are going to do just that, regardless.

Wayne

I'm not "scared" of LE. I doubt anyone on this forum is (unless they're blatantly violating hunting regs).

I purchase a hunting license to photograph because I respect LE, the difficult job they do, and the laws they enforce.

I'm not going to make they're job difficult with the old "I'm just taking pictures" excuse -even though in my case it is true. Besides, I agree with the common interpretation that picking-up a snake and moving it to a different location is "hunting". I don't see how LE (or anyone else) could assign a time frame for how long a snake must be held before it is consider "captured". Any type of time allowance for non-capture would make field enforcement impossible.

I have always been courteous to LE of all types, at least until they have given me cause to be otherwise. Lacho was definitely one who deserved NO consideration. However, most of them are decent guys. If you feel that you are being treated unfairly then get their name and report them.

My origina post was that, while a license is NOT necessary to photograph, the probability would be that you would eventually pick up an animal - in which case a license is required.

I remember the night I first met Cervantes (lacho's replacement) I introduced myself, welcomed him to the area, showed him my license. He then stopped me again an hour later. I asked him if he was going to write me a ticket. He replied that I had done nothing for which a ticket could be written. I asked him then to please stop stopping me w/o cause. He stopped me a third time, asked for my driver's and hunting licenses. He then proceeded to copy down my data in his headlights. I got so steamed that I walked over, took my licenses from his hand and drove away.

Up to a point, be polite. Most are just doing their job. If they go overboard, write a letter of complaing. Ask Keown if the state licensing board takes such complaints seriously.

JH

Every time I get unjustly bothered by sheriffs, Highway patrols,Border patrols and game wardens they keep me for at least 30 min plus.Im not breaking any laws so leave me alone.they know what we are doing they just dont like it so they will continue to bother us until hunting on Texas roads is ilegal.If I was smugling drugs or ilegals I dont think I would stop to shine my light on a cut.

.....fear has nothing to do with it. If you touch the animal in any way and you don't have a license, you've violated the law. The letter of it if not the spirit. As a matter of principal, everyone who's of legal age and is herping in any way shape or form should have a license. And what if you DO make the last minute decision to bring that once in a lifetime animal home with you? The Boy Scout's have it right Howie - "Be prepared".
And as to harrassment, getting checked out is part of what you have to put up with - to a point. If you're honestly being screwed with, get the guy's name and badge number. Use the system to make HIS life miserable for a while - his supervisors will get tired of it sooner or later, trust me.
LE of any branch has a pretty thankless job for the most part, let's face it - most of the people they deal with probably ARE jerks. We have an opportunity to mend some fences and hopefully bring some of these folks around to our perspective. By doing so we'll ALL benifit in the long run. Sorry for the long post, and it's just my $0.02.

You chumps (including you Ed)will not have to worry about collecting or even touching a reptile from the roadside anymore after HB 12 makes it's way across the Governor's desk. My point was photgraphing reptiles is not illegal and you DO NOT have to have a friggin license in which to do so. Somehow this gets misconstrued into actually putting a finger on the animal. I never mentioned anything about touching the animal at all. All I said was it was not illegal to photgraph, and it isn't!!! I hope all you people that "really like to road collect" and/or hunt the right of way have respect for LE now after this bill. They are literally cramming this up our A$$!! Better join in on the fight! We lose a little more freedom every day in the country we call "the land of the free". Land of the free my a$$!!!

Wayne

In 1992, I overheard a very wise GB master being asked by a newbie how and where to find GBs and JF calmly answered, "you just have to leave your motel room". To this day, that is still
the best piece of advice I have ever heard.......just get out there.

Tremp....

Alex:
you do NOT need a license merely to photograph. Howerver, I assume you will want to take home a few so I'd say "spend the $45"

speed depends on what makes you comfortable. Black Gap I'd say 15-20 tops, at least on the inner half. Some people speed cruise, run over a lot of stuff, miss a lot of stuff but say "Hey, I caught an alterna" - never mind that they didn't stop to look at other animals, probably ran over a few subocs and who knows - possibly an alterna.

Some animals are diurnal, some crepuscular, some nocturnal. I've had decent luck for some species during dusk but most will be after dark.

Good Luck.

JH
Herping The Tran- Pecos

John is technically correct that you do not need a hunting license for photography, but there are other considerations.

I don't collect, just photograph. However, convincing a skeptical warden of that fact may not be easy. I could probably when a court case, but that would waste my time and tick off the warden.

TPWD interprets hunting as any action that limits the free movement of a wild vertebrate. If you touch of pose any animals, that could be considered hunting. It's largely up to the descretion of the warden.

Sometimes getting a decent photo requires picking up a herp and taking it to a more photogenic spot, then returning and releasing it. Picking up the herp, even for a few seconds is definitely hunting.

I always carry a hunting license, even if the only other item in my possession is a camera.

>>John is technically correct that you do not need a hunting license for photography, but there are other considerations.
>>
>>I don't collect, just photograph. However, convincing a skeptical warden of that fact may not be easy. I could probably when a court case, but that would waste my time and tick off the warden.
>>
>>TPWD interprets hunting as any action that limits the free movement of a wild vertebrate. If you touch of pose any animals, that could be considered hunting. It's largely up to the descretion of the warden.
>>
>>Sometimes getting a decent photo requires picking up a herp and taking it to a more photogenic spot, then returning and releasing it. Picking up the herp, even for a few seconds is definitely hunting.
>>
>>I always carry a hunting license, even if the only other item in my possession is a camera.

---Technically if you go by Websters, John could very well be wrong. Here's the definitions of hunting.

Main Entry: 1hunt
Function: verb
Pronunciation: 'h&nt
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English huntian; akin to Old English hentan to seize
transitive senses
1 a : to pursue for food or in sport b : to manage in the search for game
2 a : to pursue with intent to capture b : to search out : SEEK
3 : to drive or chase especially by harrying
4 : to traverse in search of prey
intransitive senses
1 : to take part in a hunt
2 : to attempt to find something
3 : to oscillate alternately to each side (as of a neutral point) or to run alternately faster and slower -- used especially of a device or machine

Pronunciation Key

Reference Center
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Steve W.

from TPWD regs, the definition of hunt is:
take or intend to take
kill or intend to kill

>>from TPWD regs, the definition of hunt is:
>>take or intend to take
>>kill or intend to kill

John, you forgot the word "capture" which does not nessassarily mean take. So if a game warden happens to come upon someone reaching down to pose an animal or prevent it from getting away you'd be hard pressed to prove to him your intent. He might say you were capturing the animal to photograph and release. Most likely the warden would just detain someone and ask a bunch of questions to try and ruin your night. You have to remember that they are up on all the old excuses such as "I'm only taking pictures and I'm looking for bugs". Buying a license saves the time and trouble of it all.
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Steve W.

Technically, the law does not go by Webster's definitions. Most laws have their own definitions included with them. In this case the TP&W Code has their own definition of the term "hunt"
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

>>Technically, the law does not go by Webster's definitions. Most laws have their own definitions included with them. In this case the TP&W Code has their own definition of the term "hunt"
>>-----
>>Gerald Keown
>>Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
>>www.southwesternherp.com

Personally I don't care one way or the other. But if you're saying that the state has their own definition of hunt so be it. I would just hate for someone to get a nice ticket and try to have to explain the meaning of the word hunt to the game warden. It may be easy for Texas residents to go to court to fight a ticket but in most cases it's just not worth it for out of staters to do.
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Steve W.

The above discussion is just what I was trying to avoid when I answered a simple "yes" to the question of whether you need a license to photograph !

Do yourself a favor-a license is a cheap way to avoid a lot of potential hassle. Plus it's a way for we herpers to give something back in exchange for the pasttime that gives so much to us.

Brad Chambers

>>The above discussion is just what I was trying to avoid when I answered a simple "yes" to the question of whether you need a license to photograph !
>>
>>Do yourself a favor-a license is a cheap way to avoid a lot of potential hassle. Plus it's a way for we herpers to give something back in exchange for the pasttime that gives so much to us.
>>
>>Brad Chambers

Agreed. Well said Brad.
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Steve W.

Steve,

Sorry, I was not trying to be argumentative. I was just trying to make a point of the fact that we could all find ourselves on the short end of the stick if we try to rely on Webster's for legal definitions of terms and words. I agree with Brad, you will probably save yourself some hassle if you just go ahead and buy the hunting license.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

>>Steve,
>>
>>Sorry, I was not trying to be argumentative. I was just trying to make a point of the fact that we could all find ourselves on the short end of the stick if we try to rely on Webster's for legal definitions of terms and words. I agree with Brad, you will probably save yourself some hassle if you just go ahead and buy the hunting license.
>>-----
>>Gerald Keown
>>Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
>>www.southwesternherp.com

Gerald, I understand. My point being that sometimes it's worse to leave it up to the wardens to deem what we are doing and have to explain ourselves. The price of the license is a small price to pay.
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Steve W.

Do yourslef a favor and tell him you are simply photographing and be done with it! Plain and simple!! PERIOD!!

Wayne

>>Do yourslef a favor and tell him you are simply photographing and be done with it! Plain and simple!! PERIOD!!
>>
>>
>>Wayne

Wayne, I think I detect a testosterone surge. lol
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Steve W.

It's just that all this Herping stuff has never been this fu**** up before until LE saw how popular it has become,........now entities have gotten involved, people freak out and get scared...........yeah, you could say that! I have a da***** hunting license as well as the non game permit. The fact still remains and always will remain, YOU DO NOT NEED A HUNTING LICENSE TO PHOTOGRAPH A REPTILE, or any other animal. I never said anything about positioning it, catching it, moving it or molesting it. I simply said to photograph it. Some people seem to disagree and that's fine. More money for the state and that's exactly what they are about. M O N E Y!

Wayne

>>
>>
>>What time do you usually start seeing things when driving? Do you wait until dark, or do you start at dusk?

---Mostly at dark. before dark is good for hognose and bullsnakes.

>>
>>Is it usually more productive to walk the cuts, or shine from the car?

---About the same but walking can yield stuff in the grass.

>>
>>Do you still try cruising in the rain?

---For amphibians.

>>
>>Do I need a hunting liscense to photograph?

---YES
>>
>>How fast you guys drive? >>>

10-30 mph.
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Steve W.

Don't forget herping in the early AM -- often productive for blacktails, prairies (if you're north of 90), bulls and various lizards. Also, spend the $45 for a license, it's cheap peace of mind. Good luck and leave some for the rest of us
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Bill Cope
O'Brien, FL

I have to agree with Wayne on this issue of photography only. As long as you have no hook or bags in your vehicle and only a camera, I don't see you passing the "hunting with intent to take" criteria. That said, don't listen to any of us, simply call Texas Parks and Wildlife and ask them if you need a license to simply photograph wildlife.

As to some of your other questions: Be careful about driving to slow. You can be cited for "impeding traffic", if you are driving too slowly on a major highway. In other words, don't try road crusing US 90 at 30 mph. I highly recommend decent lighting on your vehicle. If you don't have auxillary driving lights, get a set of Sylvania Silverstar bulbs. If you plan on getting out and walking the cuts, get a Stubby or similar fluorescent light to walk with. If you are out there from 6 PM to 9 AM, you have a shot. Have fun!