Reptile & Amphibian Forums

More bad news and dirty deeds in Austin......after an one hour phone conversation with our attorney, Chris Jones, today, I am sorry, but not surprised, to report the following highlights of the hearing in Austin on May 24th and the plight of our turtles.....
1) Matt Wagner, director of the nongame species dept of TXP&W, is a personal friend of Bayou Bob's.
2) All of the commissioners, but maybe two, feel that the "resource" is sustainable eventhough Jones had a cadre of
experts testify that such harvesting is detrimental.
3) They intimidated some of our expert witnesses in person, via peers and by e-mail to the point that the top witness (name
withheld by request) walked before testifying and two others had to be retrained prior to taking the stand.
4) They did not want anyone to report the fact that snappers store toxins from man made polutants in their fat....mercury,
PCBs and so on......they tried everything possible to disallow testimony by saying, "that is for the Public Health Department to handle. We are only concerned with the 'resource' at this hearing".
5) They say that turtles should be taken out of many water systems and regarded as vermin.
6) They threatened to table the entire issue over to next years court if we did not comply with their wishes to allow harvest of red-ears, 5 species of softshells and common snappers on all public land, eventhough LE will not be able to tell a private turtle from a publicly taken one.
7) So far they have not published the testimony, both written and audio, on the State website as the discussion and input from our side regarding nonsustainability, bio-accumulation, and health hazzards are very damning to them.
8) They took testimony from a dozen pro-harvest folks, including a commercial box turtle guy that claims, (now get this), he only takes them off roads! Other trappers said that they are doing a service to the State and the poorer communities by ridding them of these pests. Jason Shaw of the DFW area had two attorneys there and tried to get the law thrown out based on procedural points.
They are really playing hardball on all levels. This is a multi-million dollar business.
What they have passed is worthless, as I am informed that if the law is not published in the State Register within 30 days
then it is null and void and moved over to the 2008 Court.
It is the feeling of Chris Jones that this will be the case and the result is 15,000 lbs of live TX turtles being shipped out weekly from DFW with now end in sight.
We even had video of the trapping on the Trinity River near Houston where fishing is banned due to polution yet hundreds of pounds of adult turtles are being taken weekly. Other video
submitted into the record showed all the boxes being shipped from DFW air cargo to overseas clients.
The really big plus for our side was a letter on formal stationery from a MD and liver specialist that stated that consuming these turtles was a public health hazzard. Jones got read that into the public record while on the stand.
Another plus was letting the US and foreign Chinese communities know that many of their people, who cannot read English, are likely eating contaminated turtle meat from Texas.
I don't want to list all the next steps our side is going to take but you can be sure the fight is not over. This is just another clear trangression of power and "good ol' boy" politics that is in our face. It no longer just effects us herpers.....this turtle harvest is going to cause ripples everywhere........ Ron Tremper

what in the heck happened to TP&W???

That whole department needs to be changed like a diaper, for the same reason.

You must use those words "we formally petition the commission to close the trade in wild turtles in Texas" and then cite your experts. By using that particular language, you force them to take some action - they may not actually take your requested action, but a formal petition legally holds more weight than a letter making a polite suggestion. They will then be required to at least refer it to a study (that's what my contact in TPWD Wildlife Diversity, who is opposed to opening the turtle trade for a variety of reasons) told me today.

Troy

Yes, the attorney for our side did use that exact language.
It is very important that we conform to the procedures and
terminology that forces our concerns and goals to be accepted into actionable items.
Thx TB......

Tremp

The following line from my point #6 should read......
"to allow harvest of red-ears, 5 species of softshells and common snappers on all private land" (not public land)

Tremp.........

how can you tell a private land turtle from a public lands turtle after its been caught?

Personally, I think we ought to allow only captive-breeding (turtle ranching) of those species . . . let them set them up like a catfish farm, get licensed, etc., and then sell them like farm raised catfish.

Troy

All,

We do NOT want any bans on harvest we want to eliminate over collection. We also do NOT want to ban captive propagation and this moronic "White List" does both of these. If you have legit concerns that are backed up by several non-biased sources that decline is occuring due to collection then you put bag limits in place NOT bans. Just because a species is declining doesn't mean the cause is collection. And banning captive propagation is the most irresponsible, anti-conservation action you can take. The captive population is a "safety net" for wild populations and this is especially true in light of the fact that we are doing virtually nothing to stop the major decline causers like development, roads, human population growth and the policies of "economic growth" in this country.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Wow, I got a totally different feeling after seeing these events unfold in person. There were about 20-25 speakers who got up to give their 3 minutes of testimony on the subject: about 8 or so speaking against the white list and 18 or so talking in favor of the white list (most in favor of a complete ban on commercial collections of all turtles).

Most of the folks speaking on behalf of the dealers/commercial aspects were wholly ineffectual in presenting their defense. The lawyers hired by the pet dealers did try to convince the commissioners that the white list was not legal because of technicalities, but one of the commissioners essentially shut that line of defense down (very obvious defense by the commissioners (so obvious I even thought of it before it was presented) that showed the lawyers were way out of their league). In fact, the most beligerent and rude folks in the audience during the presentations were the commercial dealers sitting behind me, including the "big" dealer. They were enraged by the testimony, obviously seeing the writing on the wall.

Most of the speakers speaking in favor of the white list were quite good in presenting their cases. In fact, many of these speakers offered different reasons for their support of the white list. Several speakers were exceptional in their presentations, including the phrase, when asked what he thought about the protection and management of Texas non-game wildlife, "Non-game wildlife, as a resource in Texas, is on fire."

It appeared to me that the speakers in favor of the white list were preaching to the choir. The commissioners were very clear that they were concerned about commercial collections of non-game wildlife. In fact, Chair Fitzsimmons stopped speakers several times to clarify that the current collection regulations were that there essentially were none and this white list was an attempt to finally regulate collections of non-game animals.

One phrase that kept popping up was that there were no data that conclusively documented the effects of commerical collections on all turtle populations in the state. This is true (I don't know of any). However, the commissioners turned this around and asked of the commercial collectors if there were any data to support the idea that commerical collections were a sustainable enterprise in this state (there are none, and in fact there is conclusive evidence from southeast Asia to the contrary).

Yes, the fact that some turtle species will still be allowed to be collected from private lands isn't a complete victory. But this will also be an opportunity to demonstrate whether the harvest of this resource is or isn't sustainable - the burden of proof will be on the dealers in this case. One commissioner mused whether commerical dealer reports could be made on a monthly basis to better watch the numbers of turtles harvested. The permits and reports that commercial dealers have to file will have the location and dates of collection for all animals, including names and phone numbers of private land owners - there will be a paper trail to try and prove provenance. Additionally provisions were added to aid in the grandfathering of residents possessing numbers of animals exceeding the bag limits and an effort to grandfather turtle farms in the state.

The fact that bag limits have finally been established in this state is huge (6 per species for non-white list animals)! The fact that there is a white list identifying those species that can be commerically collected is a huge step in bringing this state into the 21st century. This was a huge set of changes for this state. Further changes can (and will be) made as we all push for

As I left the commissioners hearing, I overheard several commercial dealers extremely upset that several TPWD folks wouldn't even talk to them after the meeting (this included the "big" turtle dealer). If TPWD is in the pocket of these commercial dealers, I guess it must have been those commercial dealers who were so sure the white list wouldn't pass that they didn't even bother showing up. Commercial dealers are extremely upset at the passage of the white list - I would imagine that several will go out of business almost immediately.

just my interpretation of the events as I personally saw them. I understand some folks' frustrations over the events not resulting in a complete ban, but I am very heartened at the prospects this decision has on non-game wildlife in Texas.
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travis
austin, tx

All,

Any law that shuts down captive propagation is anti-conservation. All of you that have commented about how good this "White List" is have obviously been mislead or you are uneducated. The "White List" protects certain species into extinction and it bans the commercial harvet of common and wide ranging species like the Leopard Frog and the Cricket Frog. This is assine. Further the goal of this action was to stop the mass exodus of turtles to Asia. It did nothing to stop this as RES, Softshells and Snappers are still allowed to be shipped out by the hundreds. And it has shut down the captive propagation of Box Turtles, Diamondback Terrapins and Map Turtles which are very popular with hobbyists.

The "White List" allows commercial harvest in species that are in high demand while banning the sale of species with low or no demand. Okay you college educated folks you can certainly see how backwards this is, right? Let me say it again because so many folks on these forums apparently don't get it. They have allowed commercial take in species that are in high demand but banned the commercial take of species with low or no demand. That is ass backwards! This is one of the most poorly designed conservation regulations I have ever heard about.

The ignorance among hobbyists is amazing on this issue. We all know that most folks in the academic arena want to shut down all harvest. They say they want to stop commercial harvest and then next will be personal use until they protect species into extinction meanwhile they refuse to address the true causes of decline like development, roads, human population growth and others because they don't want to make any waves and get their funding cut off.

Those people that don't keep and breed herps are for the "White List". People who do keep and breed herps are against it except all those holyer than thou snake guys who can still collect as much as they want. If they didn't have alternas, lepidus and subocs on the "White List" they would be raising holy hell and would not support it. You can bet that!

All herps are a renewable resource and they can be harvested at some level. I think that herps should be managed like Crocs. The Fish and Game agencies work with Croc breeders and they are able to harvest wild animals and eggs, captivly propagate and commerce. That is intelligent, fair and reasonable and Croc populations are doing great.

Take Care,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

From what my sources are telling me, step 2 will have to be a captive-breeders permit, probably initially for turtle farming and then more widespread as a general captive-breeders permit.

Troy

I may be an idiot, but I thought the initial impetus behind HB 2414 was to curb commercial collecting? Especially protecting east Texas turtles from collectors from "Arkansas and Oklahoma" (quotes are because I believe that was in an earlier post)?